The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

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ronaldnorth_03
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The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by ronaldnorth_03 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:22 pm

Since the release of Dragon Ball Super: Broly, something has caught my attention. During the movie, only the original transformations (SSJ, SSG, SSB) were used. If the series returns or a new movie is released, will Kaioken Blue and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution be forgotten?

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Grimlock » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:43 pm

Depends. If the next movie has Toriyama's involvement, yes, they'll be "forgotten". If the next series be like Dragon Ball Super (a sad thing), no, they won't.
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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Kendamu » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:13 pm

They also skipped over Super Saiyan 2 and 3 and we haven't really seen Full Power Super Saiyan for a very long time. I was thinking that they were wanting to keep a certain flow and too many transformations at once would kill that flow.

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by ZeroNeonix » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:50 pm

Dragon Ball Super Broly was written by Toriyama, while the anime only followed an outline by Toriyama. The Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken transformation was a TOEI thing, so it shouldn't be surprising that Toriyama didn't use a transformation he didn't come up with. Of course, Toriyama also didn't originally write in Broly's green transformation, so TOEI does seem to have at least a little bit of freedom to change up Toriyama's script. If Super is primarily told via movies from now on, we may never see Blue Kaioken or Blue Evolution, unless fans make a big deal about it.

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:52 pm

Yeah, hell, two transformations are too many as it is. Broli worked because his power was actively evolving but a transformation really only works narratively if there is only one for each character. Gokuu and Vegeta should only have Blue as their transformation.
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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:29 am

they are very likely to return ... we didn't have SSBE or SSB xKK but in exchange for that we had SSG Vegeta and Broly Ikari that had to be promoted in this movie

so not, Toei makes the movies with the author if they find the opportunity to add those transformations or techniques they will do it but it was not the case on this occasion

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:45 pm

In hindsight, I really wish that Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution never happened. In a franchise that actively crutches itself on what the next transformation will be, I think series needs to scale back on power-ups and focus on more ingenuity in combat that doesn't rely solely on who can punch the hardest or scream the loudest.

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Desassina » Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:12 pm

Super Saiyan, God, Blue and Ultra Instincts are enough. I believe that Toyotaro wanted to return the Blue aura to its transformation through Vegeta's evolution, because the movie was going to signal the transformation through another, as if it were like the anime all along (that is to toggle between on with power and off without it). Since Super Kaioken Blue saw its equivalent and alternative in SSJG/B switching, there needs only to be a progression between these forms, to say that he's gone more powerful after SSJ.

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:38 pm

Kendamu wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:13 pm
They also skipped over Super Saiyan 2 and 3 and we haven't really seen Full Power Super Saiyan for a very long time. I was thinking that they were wanting to keep a certain flow and too many transformations at once would kill that flow.
Did they though? “Full Power” Super Saiyan wasn’t really a separate form.

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Nokra » Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:37 pm

They aren't canon so they'll go "bye bye" :wave:

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by ronaldnorth_03 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:03 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:45 pm
In hindsight, I really wish that Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution never happened. In a franchise that actively crutches itself on what the next transformation will be, I think series needs to scale back on power-ups and focus on more ingenuity in combat that doesn't rely solely on who can punch the hardest or scream the loudest.
They should have taken the chance at Fukkatsu no F. Yeah, Goku spends part of the fight using only his base form. During the release season, I believed that Goku would use something similar to Mystic Gohan for the rest of the franchise, eliminating the transformations. Too bad it didn't happen.

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Alruneia » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:35 pm

As far as simplicity goes, I believe that Toriyama's approach is just that they can use SS power and they can use SSG power. Based on this, you get 4 forms:
- Base (neither SS nor SSG)
- SS (only SS)
- SSG (only SSG)
- SSGSS (both SS and SSG)
If you're not following, look up "truth tables". I'm describing one of those.
So in this case, these four possible combinations are all you're gonna get in Toriyama's scripts/outlines. SS2, SS3, CSSB (no aura SSB), SSBKK and SSBE are all additions from Toei/Toyotaro. (As a side note, Ultra Instinct isn't considered a transformation.)
Nokra wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:37 pm
They aren't canon so they'll go "bye bye" :wave:
This depends on how Super continues. If manga and movies are all we're getting, then yes, they're almost certainly gone. If the anime comes back, Toei may very well put them back in, though they do have the opportunity not to (which is an opportunity I personally think they should take).
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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:48 pm

Nokra wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:37 pm
They aren't canon so they'll go "bye bye" :wave:
you cannot prove that they are not

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Nokra » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:06 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:48 pm
Nokra wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:37 pm
They aren't canon so they'll go "bye bye" :wave:
you cannot prove that they are not
They didn't appear in the canon broly movie written by toriyama. they aren't canon.

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:32 pm

Nokra wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:06 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:48 pm
Nokra wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:37 pm
They aren't canon so they'll go "bye bye" :wave:
you cannot prove that they are not
They didn't appear in the canon broly movie written by toriyama. they aren't canon.
and that import? toriyama will do the script but don't forget who takes care of the rest
taking into account that they had to appear SSG vegeta, Gogeta base, gogeta ssj, gogeta SSB and broly ikari were not going to appear other transformations either like ssj3 and ssj2, also I doubt very much that "ikari" transformation is idea of toriyama seems more like toei.

the transformations SSBE and SSBKK continues to appear in video games and figures will not disappear just like that easy ... if they find the way they will surely back on others movies, this movies do not eliminate the previous continuity are the continuation of both.

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by HimuraBenny » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:11 am

Blue evolution feels like a stopgap , with how the manga is going Vegeta should be getting a ultra instinct like transformation (or at the very least an enhanced skillset) in the near future. Blue Kaioken i dont see as a transformation because at least from my understanding kaioken can be combined with any saiyan transformation thus far.

Depending on how seriously dbs broly is taken into consideration when writing the next continuation of the series, the oozaru power might be the next evolution, which would fit quite well with SSJ4 should the GT timeline be kept canonical. There are too many transformations now.

*To be clear when i say "ultra instinct like transformation" i mean in the sense that the power scaling/narrative value of vegeta's transformation will be on par with gokus mastery of ultra instinct.

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by dario03 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:45 pm

I wouldn't mind if Kaioken went away. Blue Evolution is okay I guess but it doesn't seem like a big deal.

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:20 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:50 pm
Dragon Ball Super Broly was written by Toriyama, while the anime only followed an outline by Toriyama. The Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken transformation was a TOEI thing, so it shouldn't be surprising that Toriyama didn't use a transformation he didn't come up with. Of course, Toriyama also didn't originally write in Broly's green transformation, so TOEI does seem to have at least a little bit of freedom to change up Toriyama's script. If Super is primarily told via movies from now on, we may never see Blue Kaioken or Blue Evolution, unless fans make a big deal about it.
Toriyama has been on record saying he isn't the type of person that gives a shit if people change his work (which explains the massive differences between Toyo & Toei on his outlines). I'd wager Toei have a lot more freedom then people think, it just depends on the creative people at the time. It seems Nagamine's main focus for the film was streamlining the forms so I understand why they didn't bring KK or Evolution in.

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by Kendamu » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:08 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:38 pm
Kendamu wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:13 pm
They also skipped over Super Saiyan 2 and 3 and we haven't really seen Full Power Super Saiyan for a very long time. I was thinking that they were wanting to keep a certain flow and too many transformations at once would kill that flow.
Did they though? “Full Power” Super Saiyan wasn’t really a separate form.
"Did they, though?"

Yes, they did skip over SS2 and 3.

Also, while FPSS wasnt a separate form, it was a distinct thing that the other characters noticed when Goku and Gohan emerged from the RoSaT and the amount of "ki" Goku was able to unleash through his kiai was a big surprise to Karin and everyone else who could feel it.

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Re: The future of Kaioken Blue and Blue Evolution

Post by omegacwa » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:35 am

I can see them ditching Kaioken Blue (Since we have ultra instinct), but dropping evolution seems weird unless they give Vegeta some other Ultra Instinct like power.

The fight with Jiren and G.o.D. Toppo would have seemed really bizarre if Vegeta didn't get some manner of power up. Even in the manga Vegeta got a evolution like upgrade although from a visual stand point it looked basically the same as blue and Whis and others just commented on his power surge.

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