Close to Toriyama but not Toriyama

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Skar
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Re: Close to Toriyama but not Toriyama

Post by Skar » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:37 pm

emperior wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:29 pm
I think this “character arcs were already over” is overblown by the fandom. Only Vegeta kind of regressed, or kinda does at times when certain writers/Toyotaro write him.
Other than that they tried to have Krillin go back to being a martial artist, and there’s nothing wrong with that, and Roshi also had the chance to get back to fighting with the reasoning being he got inspired by his pupils. Gohan was allowed to fix his arrogance flaw and grow as a martial artist.
The others like Tenshinan, Piccolo, Yamcha are largely unchanged from Buu arc.
Even then, most of these characters already completed their arcs before the manga was over, with Tenshinan’s arc being wrapped up in the 23rd Tenkaichi, for example, and Krillin in the Cell Games aftermath.
Yet that didn’t stop Toriyama from using those characters again even though their personal story was over.
I do agree with Jord that character arcs were pretty much over 20 years ago. For some characters, it ended earlier than that which is why they didn't have much of a role after the Cell saga. Dragonball was still hugely successful so it only ended because Toriyama thought it was a good conclusion (that also burned out by that point I guess).

I think that's part of the reason Toriyama had DBS as a interquel is because he's aware there's nowhere left to go with the characters after EoZ. There's only the younger next generation but he doesn't seem interested in them. As an interquel, he can squeeze in a few more stories but not worry too much about changing the status quo and occasionally have characters undergo the some character arcs which end the same way they did previously.

I don't think there has been any new development for the characters aside from Goku and Vegeta becoming stronger. In the original story, between Buu and EoZ were ten years of peace so nothing eventful happened that would lead to major character development by EoZ. Gohan slacks off and has to come to the realization that he must train to protect his loved ones which is something that already happened in the Buu saga. Goku and Vegeta were given new character flaws in RoF to give them something to work towards and also refuse to work together. We already know the outcome of this development because it already happened during the Buu saga and they eventually fuse or work together against an opponent too powerful for them individually.

This is my just opinion DBS might be winding down and getting close to ending and transitioning to EoZ. I think all the "redevelopment" was concluded during the ToP. I have to wait and see what happens after this arc. There are four years or so until EoZ so the ending of DBS can't be too far off :P.

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Re: Close to Toriyama but not Toriyama

Post by emperior » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:26 pm

Toriyama’s unwillingness to go after the end of his manga might also be because he does not want to write a new ending, as he may consider the one he wrote more than 20 years ago to be perfectly fine.

And he also has no idea how to handle Uub and so prefers to keep the story as a midquel because it’s safer, easier and he can end the story anytime without worrying too much about writing a compelling finale.

The excuse of characters being too old doesn’t hold up considering it basically only applies to Bulma, whom is still included in every story arc. And this could easily be solved by having Shenron make her younger.
While Goku and Vegeta are established to stay in their prime until they are 80, so they wouldn’t even have to hand out the torch to the next generation any time soon.

The last movie indicates the characters Toriyama cares about. Broly’s main cast is modern Dragon Ball’s
main cast: Goku, Vegeta, Bulma, Whis, Beerus, Freeza and Piccolo as supporting role.
Which is basically the same main cast from U6 tournament and Future Trunks arc.
Every other characters are at best one arc wonders (ex. Future Trunks and 17).
What I consider the Dragon Ball canon

Favorite Dragon Ball Arcs

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Re: Close to Toriyama but not Toriyama

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:50 pm

The issue wasn't things like Roshi or Kuririn getting back into martial arts, it's that their arcs were in fact complete. Kuririn was happily married (he got what he wanted the most in life), and Roshi had passed the torch. That doesn't preclude them from being useful, but in terms of taking them from A to Z, that was over years ago. When ALL of your characters had reached their natural end, it's time for the story to end, otherwise the characters and the story itself will be spinning its wheels.
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Re: Close to Toriyama but not Toriyama

Post by PremiumSalt » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:59 am

Gotta be honest, I generally disagree with this notion that Toriyama's involvement in something DB related will automatically make it better. Am I happy he's involved with the new material? Absolutely. But he seems to be just as capable as Toei of making poor material. I mean, he wrote Resurrection 'F', which just might be my least favorite storyline in the entire "canon". Conversely, the Moro arc, which he's supposedly barely if at all involved in, is shaping up to potentially be my favorite arc of the Super era.
Dragon Ball Arc Rankings: 1. Piccolo Daimaō 2. Saiyan 3. 22nd Budōkai 4. 23rd Budōkai 5. Hunt For the Dragon Balls 6. Zamasu 7. Tournament of Power 8. 21st Budōkai 9. Broly 10. Battle of Gods 11. Boo 12. U6 Tournament 13. Freeza 14. Red Ribbon Army 15. Artificial Humans/Cell 16.Golden Freeza
Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Close to Toriyama but not Toriyama

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:09 pm

PremiumSalt wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:59 am
Gotta be honest, I generally disagree with this notion that Toriyama's involvement in something DB related will automatically make it better. Am I happy he's involved with the new material? Absolutely. But he seems to be just as capable as Toei of making poor material. I mean, he wrote Resurrection 'F', which just might be my least favorite storyline in the entire "canon". Conversely, the Moro arc, which he's supposedly barely if at all involved in, is shaping up to potentially be my favorite arc of the Super era.
We're not claiming it's about canon or Toriyama isn't above turning out bad quality work. What I and I assume others are saying is he has a very distinct voice that's hard to approximate and he's had his day. That magic touch is gone, not because he's gotten worse, but because it only lasts for a while and is damn near impossible to get back.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Close to Toriyama but not Toriyama

Post by PremiumSalt » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:21 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:09 pm
PremiumSalt wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:59 am
Gotta be honest, I generally disagree with this notion that Toriyama's involvement in something DB related will automatically make it better. Am I happy he's involved with the new material? Absolutely. But he seems to be just as capable as Toei of making poor material. I mean, he wrote Resurrection 'F', which just might be my least favorite storyline in the entire "canon". Conversely, the Moro arc, which he's supposedly barely if at all involved in, is shaping up to potentially be my favorite arc of the Super era.
We're not claiming it's about canon or Toriyama isn't above turning out bad quality work. What I and I assume others are saying is he has a very distinct voice that's hard to approximate and he's had his day. That magic touch is gone, not because he's gotten worse, but because it only lasts for a while and is damn near impossible to get back.
Well firstly to clarify I wasn't saying that anyone was making this about canon, my referencing canon was only meant to be a comparison point to express my dislike for RoF.

And I won't disagree that he does have a distinct feel. Going back to my example of the Moro arc, as much as I like the arc, it definitely doesn't feel like something he'd write, at least in my opinion. But my point is that I don't think that his voice is necessary for Dragon Ball material to be good, nor do I feel that Super suffers from not being directly written by him. Even taking the Moro arc out of the equation, there's plenty of Dragon Ball material I enjoy that he had little to no hand in, for example the Bardock special, the training filler between the RRA arc and the 22nd Tournament and between the Piccolo Arc and the 23rd Torunament, the Saiyan arc filler, DBZ Movie 13 (which out of all these examples probably feels the least Toriyama to me).
Dragon Ball Arc Rankings: 1. Piccolo Daimaō 2. Saiyan 3. 22nd Budōkai 4. 23rd Budōkai 5. Hunt For the Dragon Balls 6. Zamasu 7. Tournament of Power 8. 21st Budōkai 9. Broly 10. Battle of Gods 11. Boo 12. U6 Tournament 13. Freeza 14. Red Ribbon Army 15. Artificial Humans/Cell 16.Golden Freeza
Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Close to Toriyama but not Toriyama

Post by Ryuji-Otogi » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:51 pm

I thought Toriyama wrote Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, which Super is largely based on. So aren’t we sort of talking about the same thing, except for Future Trunks arc and Tournament of Power arcs?

Also, I think the Internet gives a false impression of how “hated” the Star Wars prequel trilogy is. All 3 performed well in the box office and I don’t encounter the hatred for these movies in real life the same way I do online. Revenge of the Sith was amazing and noticeably better than the first 2 of the trilogy and it seems to get thrown into the same group by contrarian prequel trilogy haters on the Internet. After The Last Jedi it seems more people are wishing that Lucas was still involved in Star Wars. Though I’m not sure how his sequel trilogy based on midichlorians would’ve planned out...

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