Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

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Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:44 am

Yes, yes, I know what you're furiously typing, "THE FREEZA FIGHT!!1"

Obviously you're right, but I would contend that past the initial transformation, there is little that separates Goku's demeanor in the Freeza fight versus any other battle. He cracks jokes about Freeza, he uses that trademarked smug smile, he literally bitch-slaps Freeza and even tries to let him go. Granted, Goku's anger ushering in the iconic super saiyan form is nothing to shake a stick at and is certainly a worthy moment, but I can't help wondering whether or not a truly and enduringly furious Goku might've been something we missed out on as fans.

Now, we were most assuredly served this flavor of scene with Gohan's messianic SSJ2 transformation. There, he remained bitter and vengefully angry, which was a hard contrast against his typically peaceful and mild-mannered personality and the reason that scene worked so spectacularly well, especially in the way that Gohan's rage proved to be the thing that got his father killed. In that sense, I believe Goku could've had a similar moment of true rage. Even when Goku has been shown to be irritated, he still retains a personality that likes to fight for fun. One could very well say that this consistency is the stuff that makes up Goku's character, but I would retort that breaking these conventions in the right situations is what creates character-defining (even franchise-defining) moments.

We've never seen Goku truly open up on a foe like that. There was that brief instance in the Tournament of Power, but that came and went without much ceremony, much like when Nappa joked about killing Goku's friends. If Goku ever legitimately let loose and laid the angry smack down on an opponent, I think it could prove to be a moment more intense than anything Dragon Ball has seen.

Agree? Disagree?
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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:52 am

No because that isn't Goku. Righteous anger in a given context worked fine, but as an overall trait, doesn't work for Goku. In fact, I love that Goku regains his composure as the fight progresses. And I don't see how Goku doesn't let loose and get really pissed. He does exactly that when he's fighting Piccolo Daimao.

Gohan's big emotional break doesn't feel earned. It's shallow and a way to up the drama and stakes without having gotten there organically.
Last edited by ABED on Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:56 am

The King Piccolo arc too. He demolished Tambourine and Drum pretty brutally.

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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by Vijay » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:08 pm

It's one of those things I find weird in DragonBall man

Watching DB for the 1st time, big green man abusing tiny monkey-tailed boy was so hard to watch. Couldn't wait to watch the karma & it was so satisfying quite honesty

Fast forward 10 years & we have grown kid who with his supposedly blood-thirsty Saiyan Gene should've butchered Frieza's limbs, decapitated him as soon as Porunga transfered everyone to Earth. Simple as that

And yet we got melodrama. More emotional scenes. More...sigh

Ofc. We gotta have our protagonist kill big green alien monster mercilessly cuz he is...."alien" by every standard...and looks terrifying...while our lizard alien doesn't...so he deserves...goddamn...what am I doing...

I really wish Super Saiyan rage-fueled instincts actually kicked-in & made Goku a beast.

While some may like how Goku remained Goku...or come up with theories like fatherhood/adulthood calmed Goku's blood..etc...I still don't buy it. While I appreciate how Goku remained his true-self....it should not be at the cost of devaluing a beastly SSJ state & watering it down to mere blond power-up...

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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:12 pm

While some may like how Goku remained Goku...or come up with theories like fatherhood/adulthood calmed Goku's blood..etc...I still don't buy it. While I appreciate how Goku remained his true-self....it should not be at the cost of devaluing a beastly SSJ state & watering it down to mere blond power-up...
They don't have a blood thirst gene. They have a greater desire to fight, that's it.
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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:18 pm

Yeah, the Tambourine thing comes to mind.

But I also think to Gohan after he turns Super Saiyan 2 (which you certainly addressed), and how he not just wants to get revenge and punish Cell, but seems to actively relish in dishing it out. I got the impression that even Goku is a little taken aback by that.

So I see it as a pretty natural progression (dare I say "character growth"...?!) going from something like Tambourine (which was just pure unadulterated RAGE), to something like Freeza (which was I'm going to make him pay and I'm going to enjoy it, but also let's be thoughtful about this and get people out of here), to something like Cell where he's really trying to evaluate the situation and make the best choices...

... of course that gets us into the Boo problem of "I'm gonna leave it to the kids"... and, well... at least he tried to talk some sense into Vegeta the whole time?

But yeah, once we get beyond Demon King Piccolo, I don't really see anything sparking Goku toward rage. We already hit that peak, and got the occasional glimpse at it from time to time after that. From there on out, finding the calmness in his rage was definitely the way to go. Anything else would no longer be Goku, and I don't think it would be interesting in the least, for that matter.
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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:15 pm

What about this scene? Did it not show Goku get overwhelmed by rage?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix6MMxU88fs
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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:22 pm

King Piccolo was already mentioned, but what about Goku vs Black (movie version)? He went full rage there.
Also Goku vs Naturon Shenron after absorbing Pan with probably the most brutal kill Goku ever did with actual purpose of making his opponent suffer before death instead of killing him instantly.
Goku vs Eis shenron was also very serious fight even though Goku wanted to let him live but that was only because his brother asked for it.
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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:08 pm

That kind of rage might be fitting for a child, but once Goku is an adult it wouldn't really make much sense.

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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:07 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:22 pm
King Piccolo was already mentioned, but what about Goku vs Black (movie version)? He went full rage there.
Also Goku vs Naturon Shenron after absorbing Pan with probably the most brutal kill Goku ever did with actual purpose of making his opponent suffer before death instead of killing him instantly.
Goku vs Eis shenron was also very serious fight even though Goku wanted to let him live but that was only because his brother asked for it.
I’m sorry but what is the “movie version” of Goku vs Black? Did you mean Beerus?

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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:55 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:07 am
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:22 pm
King Piccolo was already mentioned, but what about Goku vs Black (movie version)? He went full rage there.
Also Goku vs Naturon Shenron after absorbing Pan with probably the most brutal kill Goku ever did with actual purpose of making his opponent suffer before death instead of killing him instantly.
Goku vs Eis shenron was also very serious fight even though Goku wanted to let him live but that was only because his brother asked for it.
I’m sorry but what is the “movie version” of Goku vs Black? Did you mean Beerus?
I meant scene from Path to Power movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1cCxGOPCXg
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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:56 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:55 am
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:07 am
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:22 pm
King Piccolo was already mentioned, but what about Goku vs Black (movie version)? He went full rage there.
Also Goku vs Naturon Shenron after absorbing Pan with probably the most brutal kill Goku ever did with actual purpose of making his opponent suffer before death instead of killing him instantly.
Goku vs Eis shenron was also very serious fight even though Goku wanted to let him live but that was only because his brother asked for it.
I’m sorry but what is the “movie version” of Goku vs Black? Did you mean Beerus?
I meant scene from Path to Power movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1cCxGOPCXg
Ohhhhh shit my bad. I completely forgot about that. :lol:

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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:28 pm

It may have, but perhaps it was better that way. You can't have Goku Hulking out 24/7, it'd get boring.
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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:04 pm

Eh, I dunno, I think the fact that he usually keeps a reasonable hold of himself through his rage is part of what makes Goku, well, Goku.

Somebody brought up the Path to Power scene, and I always found that one to be incredibly odd because of how not-Goku it was. It felt more like a scene written for Kid Gohan and then had Goku swapped in. Even as a kid he never had that type of emotional outburst, usually just going straight into murderdeathkill mode.
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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:48 pm

Yeah Path to Power Goku is the writers showing that after ten years they no longer knew who Goku was as a character and thought that he and his children were interchangeable. That Hacchan scene is ridiculous and proves why the Anniversary film shouldn't be taken seriously as anything more than an experimental one-off.

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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:39 pm

Whenever I ponder this, I always conclude that I don't want Goku to be angrier, I just want to know he's invested in how high stakes the Piccolo-on fights are. But funny enough, adult Goku's usual attitude is the better one to have in those situations. If you're going to paralyze Nappa for making a sneak attack on your son and best friend, knock the wind out of Vegeta five times in thirty seconds for backing you into a corner, or swear to kill that damn bubble demon for taking away everything you care about anyway, your actions are speaking pretty loudly. :P I really would like to think his initial thrashings by Tambourine and Piccolo right after the Tournament stuck with him.
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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by Kokonoe » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:51 am

Gohan is smarter and more sensitive whereas Goku is simple minded and care free.

I feel he just grew up is prob why. After he gets angry he calms down and tries to see the good in people.

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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:30 pm

To be clear, I'm referring to Goku getting angry when it's earned. That's the point - that something has happened to Goku that would drive a lovable, thrill-seeking oaf to the depths of unbridled fury. What happened with Freeza fit the bill one hundred percent. After a lengthy battle and the death of his respected rival, Goku just saw two of his friends presumably killed right in front of him, with his son possibly being next on the list. That's earning it, and it's well-punctuated by the SSJ transformation.

You can say, "well, that was Goku's mad moment". For me though, I would've liked to see Goku absolutely thrash Freeza instead leaning back into his normal mid-combat state of mind. I realize there's problems with carrying the narrative - what are the implications of it once it's over - but if nothing else it would've been absolutely intense.
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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:01 pm

But he did absolutely thrash him. He became calmer the more in control of the battle he got.
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Re: Did Dragon Ball sleep on utilizing an angry Goku?

Post by Akira » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:03 pm

The Tambourine and Piccolo stuff was where he went off in a fit of rage, without preparing properly first. He learned his lesson, and any time after that, he rages momentarily, but realized that keeping his head meant a better chance at devising the winning strategy. There are times when he gets super mad, but keeps his head in the fight. Plus, he has a constant reminder in watching Vegeta lose his cool against many villians, or get deceived by them, and lose because he didn't keep his rage in check.

The initial transformation to super saiyan wasn't the rage induced killfest some may have expected, but that saiyan gene was present. He did lose his head in a different sense, he became so battle hungry, he passed on chances to escape or outright kill Freeza. Goku let him power up to 100%, all for the sake of his lust for all out life or death combat. He wanted to break Freeza physically, and psychologically. He wanted to prove absolute saiyan dominance over his opponent.

The early Z dub sort of propagated this notion of Goku sparing his opponents for the idea of looking for the good in them, but that was never the case, at least not in the original manga or Japanese subtitled anime. He fought Daimao once and lost, prepared himself and fought him a second time and killed him. The reborn Piccolo Junior challenged him at the tournament, and when previous tournament finalist Tenshinhan could be so easily embarrassed by Goku's ever growing power and speed, Junior looked like the only foe who might ever give him that feeling of life at stake no holds barred combat that he thirsted for. He spared him for the selfish notion that he might get stronger and give him another grand battle down the line. He was able to quickly cover that fact by saying Piccolo and Kami were one, and to kill one ended the life of the other, as well as the Dragonballs. In that sense, he passed the buck on to Kami as the reason he spared Piccolo.

He spared Vegeta for the same reason, for all intents and purposes, Goku lost that fight. Gohan, Krillin, Yajerobi with coaching from a broken Goku on the sidelines were able to eke out a win against a severely weakened Vegeta, but just barely. Krillin was all but ready to put an end to it, and Goku saved Vegeta's life at the last second. He wanted to spare Vegeta so that he [Goku] would have another chance to train and win by his own actions and not a lucky turn of events.

Goku's motives in trying to let Freeza go near the end of their battle may have been partially for similar reasons, but I think he wanted Freeza to suffer knowing that there was someone stronger than him out there. He wanted the tyrant's defeat to linger in his mind and reduce him to a fraud in hiding from this Golden force that crippled him. If that isn't worse than just killing him, and giving him an easy out, I dunno what else is.

Also keep in mind that Freeza's return in the original timeline before any time travel changes ended with Goku using instant transmission and rapidly killing Cold and Freeza without hesitation. So really, you can blame Future Trunks for stepping in when he wasn't needed just yet. That's something I'd like to see Toyotaru draw in one of his bonus chapters and actually see it play out.

Goku rages, he just has the experience and training from many masters to keep himself in check and use it to his advantage rather than giving his enemies the advantage of him losing his mind in the heat of combat. Aside from the original timeline scene that I'd love to see covered in some Dragonball media at some point (Manga, Anime, Movie) I don't think we've really missed out per say in any other capacity.
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