Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:30 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:35 pm
I would love a scene where Piccolo had to correct someone for calling them a man or trying to make a move on them.
But he refers to himself as a male. He uses aggressive male pronouns when referring to himself. Not to mention that King Piccolo clearly called him "son" when he created him so there that too.
I think Dende or Freeza fit this idea better, but again, using literal aliens as representation seems counterproductive. I hope I didn't misread sarcasm here

Addotionally Toriyama once mentioned in an interview that biologically speaking Namekians might be hermaphrodites, but again, this might have been just a passing thought.
Last edited by Michsi on Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:39 am

Michsi wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:30 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:35 pm
I would love a scene where Piccolo had to correct someone for calling them a man or trying to make a move on them.
But he refers to himself as a male. He uses male pronouns when referring to himself. Not to mention that King Piccolo clearly called him "son" when he created him.
I think Dende or Freeza fit this idea better, but again, using literal aliens as representation seems counterproductive. I hope I didn't misread sarcasm here.
I agree that alien characters are not ideal for representation. It bothers me that the trans woman in Supergirl is an alien. Piccolo being a recurring character makes it easier to use him for this end but now I'm thinking that Piccolo is actually a transgender man.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:48 am

VegettoEX wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:48 am
jjgp1112 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:47 am
I have a simpler solution: how about we keep identity politics out of some dumb kung-Fu cartoon?
This is not an appropriate response.
It's an appropriate response, you just disagree with it. An inappropriate response would be along the lines of "keep ideologies that promote mental illness out of my anime!" or something along those lines. That is an example and not a line I believe, so don't punish me for it please. Something that insults people here who are just trying to discuss opinions. But his response is appropriate, non-insulting, and just trying to find middle ground. We've had threads on this forum in the past where someone talks about injecting American left-wing politics into Dragon Ball for values such as representation and diversity. It always ends poorly. This community (Dragon Ball in general) already has the following:

* Faulconer vs Kikuchi
* GT sucking vs not sucking
* Z vs Kai
* Super sucking vs not sucking
* Vic is innocent vs Vic is guilty
* Shoving American politics into a Japanese cartoon

I feel like there is one that I forgot, but you should get my point. I really like you dude. You are a cool guy. But you should be better than this. He didn't insult anyone like in my example. He just wants people to not start fights and is trying to find middle ground. Everything else in the world has politics these days. There is nothing wrong with wanting a bit of escapism where you can just sit back, relax, and enjoy something without having to worry about left vs right wing politics. Hell, I remember when Xbox Live had gamer pictures for McCain and Obama.
wrote:LGBTQQIP2SAA
So is this seriously an abbreviation used by the LBGT community? Or is this a friendly joke? The most I've heard was something like LBGTQIA, and that already seems stupid in my opinion. Call me old fashioned (or just old, it fits I guess), but I remember when it was just LBGT and everyone was fine as we fought for equality for homosexuals.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:52 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:39 am
Michsi wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:30 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:35 pm
I would love a scene where Piccolo had to correct someone for calling them a man or trying to make a move on them.
But he refers to himself as a male. He uses male pronouns when referring to himself. Not to mention that King Piccolo clearly called him "son" when he created him.
I think Dende or Freeza fit this idea better, but again, using literal aliens as representation seems counterproductive. I hope I didn't misread sarcasm here.
I agree that alien characters are not ideal for representation. It bothers me that the trans woman in Supergirl is an alien. Piccolo being a recurring character makes it easier to use him for this end but now I'm thinking that Piccolo is actually a transgender man.
There's nothing whatsoever to suggest that though . Not to mention that there isn't anything a trans person could see, as far as I can tell, that would help them identify with him in that regard. Given that his father established him as male from the start and he's never shown any signs whatsoever about doubting that it just doesn't seem like he would be a right choice.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Plague-Memories » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:53 am

what’s wrong with you lmao it’s a 30 year old japanese kung fu cartoon, i promise you no one but a dub company is going to put that stuff in it

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:02 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:12 pm
The Neanderthals that think sports trophies are actually demeaned by the existence of a participation trophy are so pathetic. So what if the kids didn't 'win' a fucking game. You won't teach them a goddamned thing by trying to psychologically traumatize them. They're kids having fun, give them a trophy to make them feel special, it's not going to ruin their lives.

Goodness' sake, sports should be teaching you the thrill of self-improvement and self-love, not to see yourself as being better than the other kid.
It should also teach you that sometimes you fail, and that's okay. Learning to fail and show grace in the face of defeat are good lessons to teach children.

I don't like what participation trophies represent - you get an award for showing up when the act of doing something really should be its own reward. But yes, I think some overblow the effect it has one people.

Regarding the initialism, it's more than a tad long to be helpful.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:08 am

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:48 am
wrote:LGBTQQIP2SAA
So is this seriously an abbreviation used by the LBGT community? Or is this a friendly joke? The most I've heard was something like LBGTQIA, and that already seems stupid in my opinion.
it is sometimes used, but again, it's not super common and a lot of people i know just use LGBTQ+ or LGBTQIA+. my guess is topic creator just used the most broad term as a way to cover most of the community.
Call me old fashioned (or just old, it fits I guess), but I remember when it was just LBGT and everyone was fine as we fought for equality for homosexuals.
communities and movements evolve ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ChibiGoku » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:32 am

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:48 am
VegettoEX wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:48 am
jjgp1112 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:47 am
I have a simpler solution: how about we keep identity politics out of some dumb kung-Fu cartoon?
This is not an appropriate response.
It's an appropriate response, you just disagree with it. An inappropriate response would be along the lines of "keep ideologies that promote mental illness out of my anime!" or something along those lines. That is an example and not a line I believe, so don't punish me for it please. Something that insults people here who are just trying to discuss opinions. But his response is appropriate, non-insulting, and just trying to find middle ground. We've had threads on this forum in the past where someone talks about injecting American left-wing politics into Dragon Ball for values such as representation and diversity. It always ends poorly. This community (Dragon Ball in general) already has the following:

* Faulconer vs Kikuchi
* GT sucking vs not sucking
* Z vs Kai
* Super sucking vs not sucking
* Vic is innocent vs Vic is guilty
* Shoving American politics into a Japanese cartoon

I feel like there is one that I forgot, but you should get my point. I really like you dude. You are a cool guy. But you should be better than this. He didn't insult anyone like in my example. He just wants people to not start fights and is trying to find middle ground. Everything else in the world has politics these days. There is nothing wrong with wanting a bit of escapism where you can just sit back, relax, and enjoy something without having to worry about left vs right wing politics. Hell, I remember when Xbox Live had gamer pictures for McCain and Obama.
wrote:LGBTQQIP2SAA
So is this seriously an abbreviation used by the LBGT community? Or is this a friendly joke? The most I've heard was something like LBGTQIA, and that already seems stupid in my opinion. Call me old fashioned (or just old, it fits I guess), but I remember when it was just LBGT and everyone was fine as we fought for equality for homosexuals.
You know, as someone who's been active in the LGBTQ+ community spaces since finally coming out years ago, I absolutely and really do not appreciate your response by any means. You're comparing our existence to something trivial discussion such as in-related discussion for most of the points that you bring up.

Also, your "Shoving American politics into a Japanese cartoon" is absolutely infuriating, given there's plenty of movements in Japan similar to the US that are in a less defined state than here, but are similar in nature. Most recently, issues regarding topics of sexism and stuff have exploded on Japanese social media and news outlets over a recent depiction of the Red Cross anime character. These are similar issues that we discuss, including stuff found in the Dragon Ball anime.

Don't you EVER dare say these discussions aren't worth discussing, because representation in media as a whole is incredibly important. This isn't "identity politics" when Dragon Ball does have various identities presented in it's media as a whole, with an early example of a known openly queer gay character in the show (which, he does openly have some issues, but it's notable for the time frame when he was depicted, ignoring... the bit Toei Animation added in the anime, which is still frustrating, not gonna lie).

Plus, when you say "lay off identity politics", it makes it very clear that you have no interest in said discussion and just want to cause issues for people who want to create such discussion. Your follow up response only makes that incredibly clear where you lean on these issues and not representative towards vulnerable communities as a whole.

Not to say we can't have open discussion, but when you create such hostility immediately, your opinion, at this point, is no longer valid and as Vegetto said, is not appropriate in any manner. Plus, as it stands, I don't want an individual such as your self commenting on issues that affect me, a gay man, as well as many members of the LGBTQ+ community as a whole. It's very clear you're not supportive of efforts to be inclusive in media as a whole and as it stands, I'll be blunt:

I really don't care or value your opinion at this point, especially when it comes to issues that affect me. I've long had to hide in the damn closet, feeling the fact that my attraction towards men was bad. I was bullied to the point at one point, I legit considered committing suicide. I was sexually and verbally harassed by my peers. Cops refused to do anything, and told my mother, straight to her face: "If your son was a girl, we could do something". How does that shit makes me feel?

Plus, as it stands, you have no idea how much I wish I saw more representation of Queer characters in media as a whole, be it kids entertainment or otherwise. I'd probably felt a lot better about myself as a whole. Many Queer Kids and Teens have felt a lot better knowing there's nothing wrong with them when they see positive representation in the media as a whole. While I was growing up, I had almost nothing of the sort, outside of some stuff on Sailor Moon and that's about it. Hell, the Canadian cartoons that started including Queer characters were often heavily edited to avoid showing it or cut the episodes out entirely. Brace Face being a notable example of this.

So no, I think these discussions are important and should be discussed. Also, infusing politics? Sir, most anime, games, heck, media in general, is infused with politics to the 'nth degree. Japanese media, especially, has heavy focus on politics, such as anti-war messages, environmental story messages. Heck, Final Fantasy VII is littered with this, a well known game across the world, with a strong anti-corporation, pro-environmental message, focusing how we're damaging out world with the energy we're using (it comes off as an anti-nuclear message as well).

So as a whole, media has so much politics going on. Whether you choose to be blind to it, that's on you, but they're there.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:41 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:35 pm
I would love a scene where Piccolo had to correct someone for calling them a man or trying to make a move on them.
lol, i don't really agree but this did remind of one of my favorite piccolo moments.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:46 am

It would require a retcon to promote Piccolo as a LGBT+ character. He's a prime candidate and had this been a new series (i.e. not one that existed for over 30 years) then absolutely.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Sin » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:07 am

ABED wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:46 am
It would require a retcon to promote Piccolo as a LGBT+ character. He's a prime candidate and had this been a new series (i.e. not one that existed for over 30 years) then absolutely.
The real problem is how poorly they would probably handle it.

Goku: "So Piccolo does that mean you have a *patpat* or not?"

*Shots of Goku prodding around Piccolos groin and butt*

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:19 am

Sin wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:07 am
ABED wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:46 am
It would require a retcon to promote Piccolo as a LGBT+ character. He's a prime candidate and had this been a new series (i.e. not one that existed for over 30 years) then absolutely.
The real problem is how poorly they would probably handle it.

Goku: "So Piccolo does that mean you have a *patpat* or not?"

*Shots of Goku prodding around Piccolos groin and butt*
That sort of thing wouldn't bother me considering Goku was a kid whose only contact with people outside of his Grandpa didn't occur until he was almost a teenager. Roshi's history of sexual assault and the treatment of General Blue are what have me concerned.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:43 pm

I see Piccolo as an asexual man.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Sin » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:19 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:43 pm
I see Piccolo as an asexual man.
Same here, like Freeza. Both have been referred to as male and a 'son' to their parent so that is the only thing we can go off. I can't think of a time either have shown interest in anything romantically, the only thing that stands out to me is how excited Freeza gets fighting and toying with Goku, but that always seemed like more of a cat and mouse infatuation than any sort've attraction.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:45 pm

Freeza doesn't seem like the kind of person who would let anybody sexually touch his glorious body.

I can't believe I ever shipped him and Cheely when she was first revealed, LOL.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Jord » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:01 pm

When I first saw Frieza I actually thought he was either female or transgender female. His 1st (and 4th) forms didn't come across as particulary male and his 4th form really gave me female vibes.
It didn't help that his voice was the weird US dub voice.

Also Zarbon and Dodoria always come across as a gay couple to me. Dodoria is the butch one.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:32 pm

Jord wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:01 pm
When I first saw Frieza I actually thought he was either female or transgender female. His 1st (and 4th) forms didn't come across as particulary male and his 4th form really gave me female vibes.
It didn't help that his voice was the weird US dub voice.

Also Zarbon and Dodoria always come across as a gay couple to me. Dodoria is the butch one.
Zarbon is bisexual, actually. I say so because I need him to fuck me so hard my brains ooze out of my holes.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:14 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:32 pm
Jord wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:01 pm
When I first saw Frieza I actually thought he was either female or transgender female. His 1st (and 4th) forms didn't come across as particulary male and his 4th form really gave me female vibes.
It didn't help that his voice was the weird US dub voice.

Also Zarbon and Dodoria always come across as a gay couple to me. Dodoria is the butch one.
Zarbon is bisexual, actually. I say so because I need him to fuck me so hard my brains ooze out of my holes.
Considering how strong he is, he might take that literally...
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:27 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:28 pm
Personally, I think it's better to just have a character represent a minority, and play it off as nothing, rather than "Promote" that. In Avengers Endgame, there's the scene towards the beginning that just casually has a gay character played by the movie's co-director. It's not challenged, it's not made a big deal of, it's treated as the norm. As it should be. Gay people, non-binary people, trans people, etc. etc. do exist, and in my experience, the best way to handle that in media that isn't explicitly about the experience of being gay, non-binary, trans, etc. is to just depict characters in those minorities, as regular additions to the cast who are... Just people, y'know?
Mitigated by Marvel making a huge deal of this character’s inclusion when it was a completely expendable scene.

. Dark Knight Returns is seen as a brilliant piece of deconstructionist satire like Watchmen, but Frank Miller never intended any satire when writing it).
Given the blatant political commentary I find it hard to believe Miller didn’t intend satire regardless of what he says

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:42 pm

It wasn't an expendable scene. It's on point for Cap's arc, and having a gay man talk about being on a date like any other normal person helps give the world texture. Even if the scene is "expendable", it still says a lot that they felt the need to keep it in.

I'll just add that it's contextual whether it's better to make a big deal of a character's sexuality, race, gender, etc. Sometimes it's best left in the background, sometimes it's best to put it on Front Street.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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