Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:10 pm

Block88 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:33 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:46 pm
jjgp1112 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:47 am
I have a simpler solution: how about we stop projecting our identity politics onto some dumb kung-Fu cartoon?
I don't know why people are hating on something with a political subtext or anything with politics in a pop piece of media. We always had political stuff in our media for ages, and yet people get so upset when something giving out a clear message about race, gender, sex, etc. Having these messages are a good way for people to express their political beliefs. People like Spike Lee, John Carpenter, Melvin Van Peebles, David Cornberg, etc. have done it for ages.

It's like the people who got mad that a Black LGBTQ movie won best picture of 2016 and said that the Oscars was giving into the SJWs when people wanted a LGBTQ movie to win best picture for years (The Oscars ignored both Boys Who Cry and Brokeback Mountain for best picture). It seems like a lot of people were living under a rock until the 2010s when they started to notice these things despite they have been around forever. I think it is great that pop media is caring more about the minority for once again. The 2000s felt like they started to pandering more to the white audience after the early 2000s. If Dragon Ball wants to appeal more to the minority than they should. People need to stop caring about themselves and think about other people for once.
And if they don’t want to oh well.
This is a franchise where it’s main claim to fame is two dudes punching the crap outta each other with the occasional humor not oh character is x,y or z stuff
A little more on-the-nose queerness is not going to get in the way of some face-punching. A victory kiss between Kale and Caulifla after one of them wins a fight won't hurt anybody. Piccolo being saved by Blooma when Panchi trys to hit on him at Capsule Corp by telling her mom that Piccolo is ace isn't going to hurt anybody. Vegeta getting flustered and red in the cheeks when Gokuu calls his reaction to something embarrassing 'cute' isn't going to hurt anybody.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:33 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:10 pm
Block88 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:33 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:46 pm


I don't know why people are hating on something with a political subtext or anything with politics in a pop piece of media. We always had political stuff in our media for ages, and yet people get so upset when something giving out a clear message about race, gender, sex, etc. Having these messages are a good way for people to express their political beliefs. People like Spike Lee, John Carpenter, Melvin Van Peebles, David Cornberg, etc. have done it for ages.

It's like the people who got mad that a Black LGBTQ movie won best picture of 2016 and said that the Oscars was giving into the SJWs when people wanted a LGBTQ movie to win best picture for years (The Oscars ignored both Boys Who Cry and Brokeback Mountain for best picture). It seems like a lot of people were living under a rock until the 2010s when they started to notice these things despite they have been around forever. I think it is great that pop media is caring more about the minority for once again. The 2000s felt like they started to pandering more to the white audience after the early 2000s. If Dragon Ball wants to appeal more to the minority than they should. People need to stop caring about themselves and think about other people for once.
And if they don’t want to oh well.
This is a franchise where it’s main claim to fame is two dudes punching the crap outta each other with the occasional humor not oh character is x,y or z stuff
A little more on-the-nose queerness is not going to get in the way of some face-punching. A victory kiss between Kale and Caulifla after one of them wins a fight won't hurt anybody. Piccolo being saved by Blooma when Panchi trys to hit on him at Capsule Corp by telling her mom that Piccolo is ace isn't going to hurt anybody. Vegeta getting flustered and red in the cheeks when Gokuu calls his reaction to something embarrassing 'cute' isn't going to hurt anybody.
Aside from maybe Kale and Caulifla, the rest of these things would come completely out of thin air with absolutely no previous characterization in the last 30 years being relevant to the orientations you want to see. Especially a guy like Piccolo who flat out doesn't even understand human romance ad has no interest in it. Again, you're projecting a lot onto nothing.

Actually, now that I think about it - I'll be highly disappointed if Piccolo never raises a Black Power fist.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:07 am

Every writer injects their own interpretation onto the characters. Koyama gave us bad luck Kuririn and needle-fearing Gokuu. How about giving Gokuu pansexuality but not having him really question it? I don't think Gokuu would really care about gender when it comes to just plain being attracted to someone.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:56 am

Piccolo has never been shown to be sexual or romantic in any way. So I don't see the problem with someone calling him asexual.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:31 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:56 am
Piccolo has never been shown to be sexual or romantic in any way. So I don't see the problem with someone calling him asexual.
Because it is determined by alien biology. One of the main issues sexual minorities face is the argument "but our human biology..." so that's what I mean by choosing non-human characters in fiction as representation being counterproductive. Yes, he is a recognizable character and one of his main reasons he is recognizable is his otherworldly appearance.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by DragonBallFan » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:16 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:04 am
Two things:

1) The nameks aren't the only species biologically genderless. The kais also are also genderless for example, so this isn't something unique to Piccolo.

2) Even though these species are biologically genderless, they are still referred to as male or female. Zamasu is referred to as "he", same thing for Piccolo, while the Supreme Kai of Time is referred to as "she". So it's not correct to say that they are genderless in general.
They are sexless, what else are they going to refer to them as? It? They? Toriyama and Toei would never put that much thought into Dragon Ball lol.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:37 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:07 am
Every writer injects their own interpretation onto the characters. Koyama gave us bad luck Kuririn and needle-fearing Gokuu. How about giving Gokuu pansexuality but not having him really question it? I don't think Gokuu would really care about gender when it comes to just plain being attracted to someone.

There's no need for an after school special, just a bit for people to chew on in the back of their minds.
I dont think anybody cares for your retroactively adding traits to characters that have not exhibited them for over 30 years. Dragonball is not your soapbox.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Soppa Saia People » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:09 am

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:16 am
They are sexless, what else are they going to refer to them as? It? They? Toriyama and Toei would never put that much thought into Dragon Ball lol.
the viz manga uses "it/it's" for cell fwiw, but that probably has to do more with him being a robot rather then him being genderless/sexless.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:20 am

DragonBallFan wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:16 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:04 am
Two things:

1) The nameks aren't the only species biologically genderless. The kais also are also genderless for example, so this isn't something unique to Piccolo.

2) Even though these species are biologically genderless, they are still referred to as male or female. Zamasu is referred to as "he", same thing for Piccolo, while the Supreme Kai of Time is referred to as "she". So it's not correct to say that they are genderless in general.
They are sexless, what else are they going to refer to them as? It? They? Toriyama and Toei would never put that much thought into Dragon Ball lol.
They are biologically genderless, but they still consider themselves either male or female.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by omegacwa » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:25 am

People making broad sweeping claims about the media not showing LGBT+ characters in pop culture over the past decade are clearly misinformed or living under a rock.

The Walking Dead. One of the most popular comics and TV shows of all time is extremely inclusive and has one of the best uses of a Gay character ever with Aaron. He goes completely against stereotype but is also shown to be loving and romantic.

The show/comic also features many people of color and people of all manner of religion and sexual preferences.

Also, in case you missed it, Jessica Jones had a 90% female cast, and also featured several interracial relationships, gay and lesbian characters, a trans character and more.

It's out there. And I'm sure there are more examples. Including the best picture winner from a few years ago Moonlight which was about a gay black man.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:19 am

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:37 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:07 am
Every writer injects their own interpretation onto the characters. Koyama gave us bad luck Kuririn and needle-fearing Gokuu. How about giving Gokuu pansexuality but not having him really question it? I don't think Gokuu would really care about gender when it comes to just plain being attracted to someone.

There's no need for an after school special, just a bit for people to chew on in the back of their minds.
I dont think anybody cares for your retroactively adding traits to characters that have not exhibited them for over 30 years. Dragonball is not your soapbox.
Characters were constantly developing new traits during the official projects.

This thread is literally a fantasy thread. Throwing around the word 'soapbox' like it means a goddamned thing is insultingly ridiculous. You don't like queer people and our inclusion in media? Cool. Fuck off. Actually, let ne help you with that by putting you on my block list.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:09 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:19 am
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:37 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:07 am
Every writer injects their own interpretation onto the characters. Koyama gave us bad luck Kuririn and needle-fearing Gokuu. How about giving Gokuu pansexuality but not having him really question it? I don't think Gokuu would really care about gender when it comes to just plain being attracted to someone.

There's no need for an after school special, just a bit for people to chew on in the back of their minds.
I dont think anybody cares for your retroactively adding traits to characters that have not exhibited them for over 30 years. Dragonball is not your soapbox.
Characters were constantly developing new traits during the official projects.

This thread is literally a fantasy thread. Throwing around the word 'soapbox' like it means a goddamned thing is insultingly ridiculous. You don't like queer people and our inclusion in media? Cool. Fuck off. Actually, let ne help you with that by putting you on my block list.
The fact that you arrived to that conclusion based on everything that was said speaks volumes about you. Sorry you feel that way.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:10 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:19 am
Characters were constantly developing new traits during the official projects.
Could you give examples? Beyond perhaps an obvious one like Goku being a Saiyan, I mean.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:37 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:10 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:19 am
Characters were constantly developing new traits during the official projects.
Could you give examples? Beyond perhaps an obvious one like Goku being a Saiyan, I mean.
Gokuu's obsession with growing stronger than his previous self, his respect for his children's choices, his use of Blooma's chest to get what he wanted out of the Elder Kaiou-shin. Vegeta dancing or being a master chef, his desire to protect his family.

I write. I create stuff. Hell, I'm working on a romance novel right now. I know how hard it is create interesting characters that fulfill oneself and all the little myriad of changes one naturally has to make as production toils on. The longer a work goes on the more you have to change and add things. Something as simple as a little same-gender attraction or full-on romance isn't going to kill anyone.

If I didn't find Kuririn so attractive as a man I'd suggest having him transition. :lol:
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:58 pm

I fail to see how any of those traits are new to Goku. We know from the beginning that Goku is a martial artists always striving to grow.

Vegeta becoming a family man is the result of development, so I'm not sure how that qualifies as traits being added. I assume by traits being added you meant something akin to a retcon b/c Piccolo being referred to as anything other than male at this point would feel like pandering.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by omegacwa » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:14 pm

Having a character, let's just say Ten or Yamcha come out as gay would be fine and not affect or contradict anything that we've seen. Ten was somewhat repelled by Lunch's advances and Yamcha is a "womanizer", supposedly, but it wouldn't be stretch for him to be revealed as gay and he was just pretending to be straight, much like the experience many gay men in real life have gone through.

That's all well and good. The issue would be if suddenly these characters transform into something they weren't before and start acting like a negative stereotype.

I've known several gay men and women in my life and they acted exactly the same as they did before and after coming out (barring talking more openly about a relationship they are in, or someone they are attracted to). I think that would be a good way to introduce a positive gay character, if Toriyama felt so inclined.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Yuli Ban » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:22 pm

If you want to bring up non-hetero sexuality in the series, do it in a way that makes sense. Piccolo literally can't be LGBT+ because he's part of an alien species that's literally unisexual, reproduces asexually, and is biologically closer to a plant than a human. Perhaps the most obvious thing that has to be mentioned here is alien. I know for a fact Toriyama doesn't really delve into alien mindsets except by accident because of the Saiyans and how, once upon a time, they were actually psychologically alien but have, in the past decade, been turned into the pitbull version of humans. But it's still a good thing to consider that several of these creatures aren't Earthlings and have their own mode of being, many of which have already been established in the series.

If you want LGBT+ representation out of him, go with the obvious: he's asexual.

Hell, the series itself does this for you, but doesn't expand on it for obvious reasons.

Trying to make a character that's flagrantly, blatantly asexual into one that's queer and romantic is the real problematic action here. Not that I want this out of Dragon Ball, but there's quite a bit you can do with an asexual character.

It's similar to that thread that went on about how DBZ needed more non-cis characters: do it with the Earthlings, but until it comes from Toriyama or maybe Toyotaro, I can't in good faith take "Goku, Vegeta, and Broly are gay" seriously. It actually makes me kind of sad because I deeply enjoy the idea of psychologically alien Saiyans and how us wickedly sex-obsessed humans (IRL) have a compulsive desire to make everything sex-based and want to think that these alien monkeys actually, seriously care about sex or romance and can't accept that they just don't care and never will.
It's actually one of the reasons why I actually still don't think Caulifla and Kale are lesbians (even though they so obviously are, or at least Kale is) besides the fact it wasn't in the manga either and the whole "sis" complex is just the "bro" complex that we've seen before in anime (most famously in Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagaan) but, perhaps very problematically, we immediately assume it's romantic and sexual when girls/women are involved due to our culture actively demonizing the idea of female friendship (something I've been studying recently, apparently male bonding and male fellowship is "legitimate" in both Western and Eastern societies but female bonding is either lesser or purely sexual & degenerate— some misogynists even claiming women are fundamentally incapable of friendship and two close women can only ever be lesbians because they don't understand friendship, something exclusive to males). It's just us sex-obsessed humans finding romance where there actually isn't one. That sounds like such a fun plot thread, one that could bring in certain existential questions about differences and tolerance thereof. It's not even a topic that Dragon Ball hasn't occasionally delved into before.

I mean, it's not a topic I expect Dragon Ball to do with any nuance or depth because it's fucking Dragon Ball, a children's comic book-cum-cartoon, but that concept of "some creatures just are different and we have to tolerate that" is a good one to bring up.
omegacwa wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:14 pm
Having a character, let's just say Ten or Yamcha come out as gay would be fine and not affect or contradict anything that we've seen. Ten was somewhat repelled by Lunch's advances and Yamcha is a "womanizer", supposedly, but it wouldn't be stretch for him to be revealed as gay and he was just pretending to be straight, much like the experience many gay men in real life have gone through.

That's all well and good. The issue would be if suddenly these characters transform into something they weren't before and start acting like a negative stereotype.

I've known several gay men and women in my life and they acted exactly the same as they did before and after coming out (barring talking more openly about a relationship they are in, or someone they are attracted to). I think that would be a good way to introduce a positive gay character, if Toriyama felt so inclined.
Something else I noticed here is that you bring up the Earthling human characters. As I've mentioned, people can accept the idea of Yamcha or Goten being gay or bi because they're psychologically & biologically human (or the equivalent). Nü-Saiyans get this pass too. But it sounds bizarre to say that U7 Saiyans could be because we know they already struggle with straight sexuality to the point they rarely got it on in the first place and would rather ignore those processes altogether, unless homosexual friendship is considered homosexuality.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by omegacwa » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:51 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:22 pm
perhaps very problematically, we immediately assume it's romantic and sexual when girls/women are involved due to our culture actively demonizing the idea of female friendship (something I've been studying recently, apparently male bonding and male fellowship is "legitimate" in both Western and Eastern societies but female bonding is either lesser or purely sexual & degenerate— some misogynists even claiming women are fundamentally incapable of friendship and two close women can only ever be lesbians because they don't understand friendship, something exclusive to males).
I have literally never, ever, heard of this concept before.

Also I could see Kale being a lesbian, but Caulifila just comes off to me as a tomboy. I guess she could be Bi. I definitely got the impression she was interested in Cabba and Goku.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:16 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:22 pm
If you want LGBT+ representation out of him, go with the obvious: he's asexual.
That's what the OP meant as far as I understood. Piccolo described as asexual has been going around for years - it was basically part of every English bio I came across of him -but the difference is is that it's biological asexuality. I get the feeling that people are confusing biological asexuality with psychological asexuality found in humans.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Yuli Ban » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:12 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:51 pm
Yuli Ban wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:22 pm
perhaps very problematically, we immediately assume it's romantic and sexual when girls/women are involved due to our culture actively demonizing the idea of female friendship (something I've been studying recently, apparently male bonding and male fellowship is "legitimate" in both Western and Eastern societies but female bonding is either lesser or purely sexual & degenerate— some misogynists even claiming women are fundamentally incapable of friendship and two close women can only ever be lesbians because they don't understand friendship, something exclusive to males).
I have literally never, ever, heard of this concept before.
It's unfortunately a real belief. Nowadays incels are the ones parroting it, but the gist was around as far back as late-medieval cavalier poets and Chinese classic novels (Water Margin being an example)— and it's filtered through our society in rather insidious ways.

Basically: female friendship is catty, fleeting, self-destructive, and full of backstabbing & usually just a front for lesbianism and witchcraft because the only person a woman needs and truly cares about is their man— never trust a group of women who call themselves "friends". Males can be catty and backstabbing too? It's honorable and manly to have disagreements because All Men Are Brothers.

Male friends are doing tough, honorable things like working and bettering society & themselves. Female friends are just gossipping about each other, wasting their men's money, deliberately plotting each other's downfall, and other useless crap because those women can't help themselves, they're basically just overgrown children who need to be controlled. Get a bunch of male friends together and they'll build treehouses, forge weapons, get into fights (MANLY fights), talk about hot chicks (often catcalling and harassing any near them), and go on adventures. Get a bunch of female "friends" together, and you can bet at least some are thinking about fucking each other when they aren't thinking about fucking the nearest man. Because why else would women be so obsessed with what the other is wearing, how the other presents herself, and whatnot?

This isn't even my own observation. You can see this basic set up throughout so much media, it actually shocked me when I started deliberately looking for it because of a basic rule: "women are involved? Females in general are involved? That means romance and sex must also be involved." This goes 100x over, hardcore, if a single male is also involved in this group, but it's still implied if it's only females. It's considered subversive if this isn't the case.
As a fun example, just look at Caulifla & Kale's introduction: that whole ordeal with Kale getting angry was apparently triggered by her getting jealous of Cabba, that Caulifla might've fallen for him.
Like, literally the same episode female Super Saiyans are introduced, we have to introduce and shoot down a love triangle. Didn't even wait; they immediately went there, because that's what's expected from female characters.
Image
The U6 Saiyans are different from U7 Saiyans, so that almost certainly excuses it, nor am I knocking the idea that they were trying to create an overtly lesbian character in Kale just to have one, but it's fascinating to me that it didn't even cross the writers' minds that even female members of a warrior race known for having extremely spartan ideas of romance & sex might not actually care about romance or sex, all because "females introduced, that means romance."

With the rise of LGBT+ representation, at least it isn't so insidious as it was before— for one, many of those "close relationships" men had was definitely something sexual and people are starting to realize it en masse nowadays. And at the same time, people are also realizing that women who've had "close relationships" weren't actually lesbians. I presume part of this reason why people would believe female friendship was covering lesbianism is because of this strange double-standard that exists for homosexuality. Male homosexuality = evil. Female homosexuality = hot and pleasing to men, though still evil.

But I digress.
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