Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Michsi
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:17 pm

Sin wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:10 pm
One thing I can't understand with all of this is that a portion of the black community have already been projecting their identity onto Piccolo for decades now and nobody has ever had an issue with that, what is wrong with LGBT+ doing the same?

As a straight white male (cishet is the term I believe), I am struggling to understand how some users are so aggressively against this, is this a class based mindset? Or geographical maybe? It's so sad seeing users I have respected for years showing themselves up with outdated principles and a lack of empathy for their fellow fans. There is room to agree and debate that Piccolo shouldn't suddenly play up to his sexuality as it wouldn't really seem very Dragonball, but there is no way whatsoever people should be told whether or not they can project their identity onto a character or situation.
I don't think anyone here outright stated fans should not project at all, the thread is about whether or not it should be promoted in an official capacity and cement it as part of DB.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:22 pm

Sin wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:10 pm
One thing I can't understand with all of this is that a portion of the black community have already been projecting their identity onto Piccolo for decades now and nobody has ever had an issue with that, what is wrong with LGBT+ doing the same?

As a straight white male (cishet is the term I believe), I am struggling to understand how some users are so aggressively against this, is this a class based mindset? Or geographical maybe? It's so sad seeing users I have respected for years showing themselves up with outdated principles and a lack of empathy for their fellow fans. There is room to agree and debate that Piccolo shouldn't suddenly play up to his sexuality as it wouldn't really seem very Dragonball, but there is no way whatsoever people should be told whether or not they can project their identity onto a character or situation.
Cishet is short for 'cisgender heterosexual', hence why I sometimes need to add 'white'.

LGBTQIA+ folks have been claiming characters from various works for years, so it bothers me to see this sort of resistance here. Nobody's going to get hurt if GSRM get to have representation in small ways.

I haven't even gotten into how I think Kale is a transgender lesbian. :lol:
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:32 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:24 am
Kale and Caulifla appeal to women-loving women too. I identify with with Kale's shy nature, confidence issues, self-disgust and intense attraction to a more dominant partner. If men masturbate to that I don't mind, they're a cute couple. I do, too!
Do you identify with her berserker rage as well?
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:33 pm

It is kinda eyeroll worthy when it goes from something they wish was true to getting genuinely upset that their desires aren't made canon.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:35 pm

Also, Namekians aren't plants; they're slugs.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:45 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:32 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:24 am
Kale and Caulifla appeal to women-loving women too. I identify with with Kale's shy nature, confidence issues, self-disgust and intense attraction to a more dominant partner. If men masturbate to that I don't mind, they're a cute couple. I do, too!
Do you identify with her berserker rage as well?
Haha, well, I'm unfortunately a victim of abuse and have PTSD. I feel like for the sake of the lowest common denominator the character's berserker state isn't quite vivid enough for me to identify with it.
ABED wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:33 pm
It is kinda eyeroll worthy when it goes from something they wish was true to getting genuinely upset that their desires aren't made canon.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:01 pm

That's quite the stretch. There should be more representation but you aren't owed your desires to be made canon. I have in no way even insinuated that under-represented minorities can go screw themselves.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Sin » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:05 pm

Michsi wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:17 pm
Sin wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:10 pm
One thing I can't understand with all of this is that a portion of the black community have already been projecting their identity onto Piccolo for decades now and nobody has ever had an issue with that, what is wrong with LGBT+ doing the same?

As a straight white male (cishet is the term I believe), I am struggling to understand how some users are so aggressively against this, is this a class based mindset? Or geographical maybe? It's so sad seeing users I have respected for years showing themselves up with outdated principles and a lack of empathy for their fellow fans. There is room to agree and debate that Piccolo shouldn't suddenly play up to his sexuality as it wouldn't really seem very Dragonball, but there is no way whatsoever people should be told whether or not they can project their identity onto a character or situation.
I don't think anyone here outright stated fans should not project at all, the thread is about whether or not it should be promoted in an official capacity and cement it as part of DB.
One of the front-page posts is literally:
I have a simpler solution: how about we stop projecting our identity politics onto some dumb kung-Fu cartoon?
With a few posters backing that up later on.

I said I had no problem with the real discussion OP intended to have.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by TheatreStyleKai » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:28 pm

Only if they change Piccolo's pronouns to "Mr. Piccolo" or "Ma Junior".

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:41 pm

TheatreStyleKai wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:28 pm
Only if they change Piccolo's pronouns to "Mr. Piccolo" or "Ma Junior".
Those aren't pronouns, those are names.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Kendamu » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:56 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
Kendamu wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:15 pm
Hi. There's not a ton of positive queer representation in mainstream media. If there is representation it's often subtext only. Because of this we tend to interpret a lot of characters in our own completely valid way.

If you're not into the idea of Piccolo being NB or Ace in the same context that an NB person or Ace person might see Piccolo, it's not your job to tell others not to interpret Piccolo that way. Also, it costs nothing to just be nice to people and not throw around homophobic dogwhistles such as "identity politics."

We're only "politics" because conservative politicians keep trying to legislate us out of existence. So, yeah, the reply that VegettoEX deemed inappropriate is in fact inappropriate and everyone defending that reply is also being inappropriate by rationalizing their homophobia.

We make up some of the most important roles in both official localization of DB and in fandom. You've enjoyed our content. You've had fun discussions with us. You've bought our products.

Stop being mean to us.
You are free to interpret Piccolo however you like. If him being a plant alien in a strange world resonates with someone being nonbinary, then all the power to you. You seem to throw out a lot of strawman arguments - acknowledging something that is blatantly related to identity politics as such is in no way homophobia. We are talking about retconning an established character for the sake of pandering. Why is that so hard to understand? Should we go back and edit some of the characters to be black since they were so poorly represented 30 years ago?
You calling me and others like me "identity politics" to begin with is pretty terrible and works to diminish the legitimacy of my existence in the eyes of the world at large. It's not a "strawman" to call you out for saying it. You're just being a terrible person because you're uncomfortable with folks like us in your fandom.

We're not a political stance or ideology. We're actual people just trying to live our lives.

Also, theres no retconning going on. Piccolo is asexual and his physiology and reproductive methods don't align to his masculine presentation. It's in the damn manga.

Be a better person!!
Last edited by Kendamu on Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by TheatreStyleKai » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:01 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:41 pm
TheatreStyleKai wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:28 pm
Only if they change Piccolo's pronouns to "Mr. Piccolo" or "Ma Junior".
Those aren't pronouns, those are names.
Don't dictate Mr. Piccolo's pronouns to Mr. Piccolo

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:07 pm

TheatreStyleKai wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:01 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:41 pm
TheatreStyleKai wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:28 pm
Only if they change Piccolo's pronouns to "Mr. Piccolo" or "Ma Junior".
Those aren't pronouns, those are names.
Don't dictate Mr. Piccolo's pronouns to Mr. Piccolo
Hon, I am a transgender person. Allow me to inform you that transgender people do not use the stock phrases you think we do.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:56 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
You seem to throw out a lot of strawman arguments - acknowledging something that is blatantly related to identity politics as such is in no way homophobia. We are talking about retconning an established character for the sake of pandering. Why is that so hard to understand?
At this point, someone needs to actually take a moment to pause and firmly establish, in solidly ironclad terms, what precisely the fuck it is that LGBTQ+ people are expected to say or do - be it in day to day life, in pop cultural representation in media, or in online discussions like this one - in order for them to NOT have the "identity politics" label thrown at them.

Because nearly every single fucking time this same idiotic, purposefully nebulous talking point gets raised, the subtext apparently always seems to be "they need to either not exist, or at least they need to stop reminding me that they exist: out of sight, out of mind".

As has already been alluded to, "identity politics" in these kinds of discussions has long shown itself to basically be dogwhistle for "anything relating to real world minority groups that makes me feel the least bit uncomfortable, up to and including any remote acknowledgement of the realities of their problems or even the fact that they exist anywhere within my close proximity".

Which yes, makes the whole "identity politics" term, within these kinds of specific contexts at least, pretty solidly homophobic (and/or racist) in nature. Because usually, 9 times out of 10, it basically just amounts to "stop reminding me that minorities and/or topics related to minorities are things that exist in and throughout ANY piece of media that I ever consume, I simply DON'T want to ever have to think about or acknowledge them in any serious fashion". Its basically a desperate cry for a - wait for it - for a safe space from anything that isn't firmly CIS/White/Hetero/Masculine or whatever.

Also, even though Kendamu had already laid this out pretty succinctly, I'll reiterate the point home further: Piccolo has always been asexual. Its RIGHT THERE in Toriyama's own original manga (and in the original anime as well). He's a sexless alien beings that reproduces via vomiting up eggs. He identifies as masculine (while also simultaneously having matriarchal traits inherent to his race, further blurring the gender/sexual lines with him), but is otherwise 100% asexual IN THE ORIGINAL FUCKING CANON FROM 30 YEARS AGO. There's ZERO fucking retconning at play here in discussing the character as asexual (and non-binary) in nature.

There's been a recurring theme throughout the past several years where reactionaries online seem to genuinely not realize that these kinds of non-binary gender/sex concepts have ALWAYS existed throughout both real life (including throughout human history) and within pop culture/media since decades and decades and decades ago, are not anything the least bit new, and thus they have a tendency to react to them and regard them as if they're concepts that have only literally JUST NOW within the past few years been invented from wholecloth by the dreaded "SJWs" in order to enact... some totally ill-defined and vague "agenda" (the specifics of which no one can EVER seem to be bothered to actually go into and define what exactly it is and why exactly its so terrible in the first place).

This has always been comically ridiculous, moronic, and asinine: and within the context of Dragon Ball fandom, asserting that Piccolo being deemed asexual is "retconning to pander to identity politics" within a present-day context, when its always been right there in the fucking original manga/anime for ALL these many years now... that's certainly no exception and takes on a whole new level of staggering dimness and complete failure of basic-most critical thinking.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:22 pm

Sorry for launching this thread into nonsense. I don't take part in nearly enough political shit online to know "identity politics" had that strong of a connotation and would rather not be associated with alt-right idiots, thank you very much. I've mostly been annoyed by the trollish, incendiary threads under similar premises that have popped up as of late, and even the OP of this thread, as someone pointed out, seemed written with a trivializing intent. I guess what I was trying to say in a very dismissive way was enough threads that would likely end with:
TheBigBoy wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:19 pm
Thanks for taking my troll thread seriously everybody!!!!
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by TheBigBoy » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:57 pm

I love being recognized for my hard work!!

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:22 pm

TheBigBoy wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:57 pm
I love being recognized for my hard work!!
I’m no Mod, but can we not make this a habit, you see what it turned into (which you might have been hoping for). Granted this is far from what it could turn into but still, no bueno man.

Side note: I was always against the notion of “ Tah Ha Da Piccolow iz blakk my G”.

To this day I don’t see how he corellates to me or my culture.

Cool character but he’s not the “black guy” of group.. None of the characters are.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by TheatreStyleKai » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:28 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:22 pm
TheBigBoy wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:57 pm
I love being recognized for my hard work!!
I’m no Mod,
Probably should have just left it at that.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:31 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:22 pm
TheBigBoy wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:57 pm
I love being recognized for my hard work!!
I’m no Mod, but can we not make this a habit, you see what it turned into (which you might have been hoping for). Granted this is far from what it could turn into but still, no bueno man.

Side note: I was always against the notion of “ Tah Ha Da Piccolow iz blakk my G”.

To this day I don’t see how he corellates to me or my culture.

Cool character but he’s not the “black guy” of group.. None of the characters are.
Yeah I should've prefaced that by saying I myself never saw it as anything more than a joke. Because it's ridiculous to actually think that Piccolo's the black guy of Dragon Ball just because he had a deep voice - provided by a white guy at that! Pretty self-defeating to try to find blackness in DB characters when the few actual black characters are racial caricatures.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:40 pm

The thing with Piccolo is that he's asexual (not sexually attracted to any gender) and aromantic (not romantically attracted to any gender) but it's not quite sure if he is agender (does not consider himself to have a gender). We know the Namekians have no concept of a female from Dende's interaction with Blooma. Piccolo is called son by Daimaou but that could simply because at the time he was a demon, rather than a full-blooded Namekian. After Piccolo's demonic presence began to dry up could he have evolved back into a pure Namekian and thus become agender? Piccolo still appears to present masculine but it needs to be reminded that non-binary folks can still present in a binary manner. My two non-binary co-workers at my last job were both masculine-presenting, even if their pronouns were they/them.

My final understanding is that Piccolo is an asexual masculine-presenting non-binary person who seemingly uses he/him pronouns. Piccolo could very well be agender but the evidence in-series seems to lean towards them being asexual and masc-presenting.
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