Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:52 pm

If I'm reading the Wikipedia page correctly, it was the first SCRIPTED kiss between a white and black person on TV. Sammy Davis Jr. kissed Nancy Sinatra about a year before.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:22 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:52 pm
If I'm reading the Wikipedia page correctly, it was the first SCRIPTED kiss between a white and black person on TV. Sammy Davis Jr. kissed Nancy Sinatra about a year before.
This is the truth. It was a big deal, but not THAT big a deal. Especially because I think the controversy was manufactured to save a dying show (at the time).

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:27 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:22 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:52 pm
If I'm reading the Wikipedia page correctly, it was the first SCRIPTED kiss between a white and black person on TV. Sammy Davis Jr. kissed Nancy Sinatra about a year before.
This is the truth. It was a big deal, but not THAT big a deal. Especially because I think the controversy was manufactured to save a dying show (at the time).
And yet how man people actually remember that kiss and talk about it? Given the times, I don't think the controversy was manufactured. I think they simply didn't give the audience enough credit. Regardless, this is not really the point is it?
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:29 pm

It's not a competition. Representation is important and needs to be repeated.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by TheNingen » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:19 am

KaiserNeko wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:27 pm
*snip*
Kaiser, I respect you. Truly I do. I'm happy you can be expressive about who you are and your relationship with your husband. Whether it's on the Facebook fan page for TFS, or in podcasts.

I'll say that for most of the points, I agree wholeheartedly with Supersaiyanzero. And I think that because I get what he's saying, and I may get flack from him for speaking on his behalf, that it's frustrating to have this discussion with people who are responding in bad faith.

The points you raised about Korra and Voltron? That's exactly what SuperSaiyanzero and myself (Or rather myself) have problems with. We DO have problems with representation for your group being done poorly. We DO have problems with it being done because it is ABSOLUTELY done for the clout and dollar rather than artistic expression. It has been argued before: Do it RIGHT. Do it in confines of the story in a way that services it and a character. Not just to make a statement. Korra wasn't bisexual. There have been videos upon videos of why Korrasami is bullshit and that the writers didn't plan for it. But they did it to get fake clout and pretend like they're so inclusive. People who write like that and do it are frankly insulting to the cause.

Again, if a character is gay, bi, autistic, trans, whatever, I don't care. Supersaiyanzero doesn't care. We care if it's done with such insincere transparency because it's being done just for the sake of 'Hurr guys look how inclusive we are ;)" and their identity becomes their only defining trait. And any other characteristics or personality is completely overshadowed by it.

A bit of a tangent, but semi-relevant. In Mamma Mia: Here We Go Again the director said that when they killed of Donna, they purposefully didn't reveal how she died. And when they revealed it was cancer, the director said that he didn't want that to become the focus. That it was about Donna dying of cancer rather than a celebration of who she was and the effect she had on people. And I think the movie was better for it. It's the same with sexuality and other characters. I don't want characters reduced to "just being gay" or "just being trans" and have that be the only thing going for them with nothing else. THAT is what Supersaiyan and I are arguing (Or at least me and what I understand his point to be). And the fact that we're still being dogged for it despite being supportive of the cause is frankly confusing because *some people* are going out of their way to creative an argument or narrative that isn't being made and arguing in bad faith.

So to those individuals (Not you Kaiser), I'm sorry to say this (well I'm not), but you're gaslighting. And you need to knock it off. You claim we're afraid of you, that we want to silence you, that we want to not have you represented in media. We don't. The narratives and points that you're claiming we're making, the assumptions you're making, are gaslighting in nature. And it's the exact reason why arguing with you is pointless. You're so focused on your "Us vs them" mentality and meeting any point of criticism or argument with dismissal and condescending backhanded comments that you absolutely fail to realize you are arguing against and trying to silence and insult people who are wanting the same thing you do. You are complicit in the same behaviors that you say Conservatives and others trying to reduce your presence are. Take some responsibility for how you take things in and how you read things and how you're fighting against your own cause with how you talk to people on your side. You're actively destroying any and all means of communication by remaining close minded and ignorant to points being made because you just want to cross your arms and go "They're against me and I'm a victim." News flash. In this thread, you're not. You're not being oppressed. You're not being attacked. You're not being told to go away. You're not being told you don't matter or that representation for you isn't important or that you shouldn't be upset with how the media treats people in your minority group and that you shouldn't voice your opinions. Arguing these points otherwise is not only disingenuous, but it's problematic. If you don't want to accept that or even *gasp* accept that you're in the wrong and partaking in said behaviors, that's on you and not me. But I sure as hell will not let you get away with it while I have the means and voice to. Even if it will be just disregarded and ignored because why try to grow as a person and accept some character faults and problematic aspects of your behaviors when you can just saying that you're right in everything and that the person you're arguing against is just a bully trying to silence you? Not gaslighting or predatory at all #EndRant

All that is being said, in the simplest terms: If a character is going to be trans, gay, bi, whatever: Make a new character with these traits or DO IT WELL AND GENUINELY IN SERVICE OF THE CHARACTER OR STORY rather than shoehorning and changing something just for the sake of inclusion. I'm sorry but most the ideas presented in this thread are the latter. They sound forced and completely unnatural in the current means of the story and would do nothing but be another Voltron or Korrasami. Dragon Ball isn't a vehicle for this. But I still want shows that are vehicles for it. Vehicles that don't simply make that trait the sole focus. But flesh it out and make them real people. I don't want to see a stereotype. Because for me, that's what "identity politics" is in 2019. I've said it before, I've said it again. People aren't just their sexuality and gender. And while it's great to celebrate or express it, I don't want that to be the sole focus of a character because I want to see what else they have going for them. I don't want to see a gay stereotype. Or a trans stereotype. Or whatever. I want a fully fleshed out person who identifies as trans or gay as well.

If I'm still considered the "boogeyman" that's "scared of minorities and blah blah blah" and trying to "silence you" or "dissuade against inclusion in media" then there's honestly no helping or further discussion that can be done. You're just proving you're closed minded and not interested in good faith discussion. You are only interested in forcing yourself onto others and silencing them without wanting to accept faults or problems in yourself because you feel wronged and victimized. And I'm not going to deal with that any longer.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by DemonRin » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:52 am

This grand statement about "Just wanting GOOD representation" and "Only Bad representation is Identity politics" line of reasoning rings hollow when there are scores of people ready to declare anything and everything "Identity Politics" at the drop of a hat.

Last of Us Part II trailer showed Ellie kissing her girlfriend.
"THEY'RE FORCING IDENTITY POLITICS INTO OUR GAMES! SJWS RUIN EVERYTHING!"

A Star Wars movie has a Girl, a Black guy, a latino guy, an Asian girl and a woman with purple hair in it.
"STAR WAS WAS RUINED BY IDENTITY POLITICS!!"

She-Ra gets a pretty awesome reboot that has characters with tons of different body types and skin colors and loads of LGBT representation.
"I GREW UP WITH MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE! NOW IT'S JUST IDENTITY POLITICS CRAP!!"

After 20+ movies where all the protagonists of every solo Marvel movie was a straight white guy, Marvel makes two movies, one with a black guy lead and one with a female lead.
"MARVEL'S GONE FULL WOKE SJW!! IDENTITY POLITICS OVER PLOT!!"

Marvel introduces a Pakistani Muslim girl as the new Ms. Marvel. Her supporting cast includes a Lesbian.
"THAT'S NOT A COMIC BOOK! IT'S NOTHING BUT IDENTITY POLITICS PROPAGANDA!!"

Zombie Land Saga introduces a Trans girl character.
"NO! THERE'S NO WAY SHE'S TRANS! IT MUST HAVE BEEN A ROGUE TRANSLATOR INJECTING IDENTITY POLITICS INTO THE TRANSLATION!!"

Mortal Kombat includes a subtle nod to a character being Gay that the creators confirmed on twitter.
"NOW EVEN MORTAL KOMBAT HAS IDENTITY POLITICS!? BAAAAAH!"

Some fan makes a fun Trans Pride color skin for the new Bee in Minecraft and it blows up into a wholesome little meme about the Minecraft bee being trans. It's not officially part of the game, just a fun meme.
"HOW IS THE BEE SUPPOSED TO BE TRANS?! WHY ARE THESE SJWS TRYING TO INJECT IDENTITY POLITICS INTO MINECRAFT!!"

Gears of War 5 includes Pride flags of many kinds as optional flags you can put on your character.
"GEARS IS DEAD! KILLED BY IDENTITY POLITICS"


I can keep going.

Every single one of those things is something I'd call pretty damn good representation. Every single one of them had real outrage and people whining about them being "Identity Politics".
When you have a cadre of reactionaries on a hair trigger to get mad and throw a fit and scream "Identity Politics!" at seemingly every single instance of representation, good or bad it dulls the idea that this outrage is only ever directed at the bad ones.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:53 am

How many times do we have to point out that calling Piccolo asexual isn't changing or retconning anything? It's just explicitly stating something that has been true from the beginning.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by DemonRin » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:10 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:53 am
How many times do we have to point out that calling Piccolo asexual isn't changing or retconning anything? It's just explicitly stating something that has been true from the beginning.
Bingo.

He always fit into this description. It's just now we have words that directly describe it.

Do I think Toriyama was specifically thinking "I'm going to include an Ace Masc presenting Enby into DBZ!"

No, but it doesn't change the fact that that descriptor TOTALLY fits Piccolo.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:40 am

DemonRin wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:10 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:53 am
How many times do we have to point out that calling Piccolo asexual isn't changing or retconning anything? It's just explicitly stating something that has been true from the beginning.
Bingo.

He always fit into this description. It's just now we have words that directly describe it.

Do I think Toriyama was specifically thinking "I'm going to include an Ace Masc presenting Enby into DBZ!"

No, but it doesn't change the fact that that descriptor TOTALLY fits Piccolo.
That was never the issue, everyone seems to be well aware of that aspect, but in the context of the company actually making moves to use him as an emblem for representation when there a lot more obvious traits to his character that actually work against what marginalized minorities are striving for when it comes to representation I don't see this issue brought up here much.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by TheNingen » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:58 am

DemonRin wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:52 am
This grand statement about "Just wanting GOOD representation" and "Only Bad representation is Identity politics" line of reasoning rings hollow when there are scores of people ready to declare anything and everything "Identity Politics" at the drop of a hat.

Last of Us Part II trailer showed Ellie kissing her girlfriend.
"THEY'RE FORCING IDENTITY POLITICS INTO OUR GAMES! SJWS RUIN EVERYTHING!"

A Star Wars movie has a Girl, a Black guy, a latino guy, an Asian girl and a woman with purple hair in it.
"STAR WAS WAS RUINED BY IDENTITY POLITICS!!"

She-Ra gets a pretty awesome reboot that has characters with tons of different body types and skin colors and loads of LGBT representation.
"I GREW UP WITH MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE! NOW IT'S JUST IDENTITY POLITICS CRAP!!"

After 20+ movies where all the protagonists of every solo Marvel movie was a straight white guy, Marvel makes two movies, one with a black guy lead and one with a female lead.
"MARVEL'S GONE FULL WOKE SJW!! IDENTITY POLITICS OVER PLOT!!"

Marvel introduces a Pakistani Muslim girl as the new Ms. Marvel. Her supporting cast includes a Lesbian.
"THAT'S NOT A COMIC BOOK! IT'S NOTHING BUT IDENTITY POLITICS PROPAGANDA!!"

Zombie Land Saga introduces a Trans girl character.
"NO! THERE'S NO WAY SHE'S TRANS! IT MUST HAVE BEEN A ROGUE TRANSLATOR INJECTING IDENTITY POLITICS INTO THE TRANSLATION!!"

Mortal Kombat includes a subtle nod to a character being Gay that the creators confirmed on twitter.
"NOW EVEN MORTAL KOMBAT HAS IDENTITY POLITICS!? BAAAAAH!"

Some fan makes a fun Trans Pride color skin for the new Bee in Minecraft and it blows up into a wholesome little meme about the Minecraft bee being trans. It's not officially part of the game, just a fun meme.
"HOW IS THE BEE SUPPOSED TO BE TRANS?! WHY ARE THESE SJWS TRYING TO INJECT IDENTITY POLITICS INTO MINECRAFT!!"

Gears of War 5 includes Pride flags of many kinds as optional flags you can put on your character.
"GEARS IS DEAD! KILLED BY IDENTITY POLITICS"


I can keep going.

Every single one of those things is something I'd call pretty damn good representation. Every single one of them had real outrage and people whining about them being "Identity Politics".
When you have a cadre of reactionaries on a hair trigger to get mad and throw a fit and scream "Identity Politics!" at seemingly every single instance of representation, good or bad it dulls the idea that this outrage is only ever directed at the bad ones.

...And how many of those people who make those outcries are people who watch and listen to reactionaries in general? And who go straight to it because they're speaking a groupthink mentality? I dismiss those people because they're morons. And in THIS thread, which is where my focus is, those reactionaries and people aren't here. If you're on a Youtube comments section, or reddit, sure. I'll give you that. But my focus is this thread with the people discussing it. And how people who simply disagree are being label as those 'sensitive reactionaries' who are given a label in the face of valid criticisms and points despite having arguments shoved in their mouths that they haven't made. You're (general you, not specifically you) being divisive unnecessarily for people who share your own goals.

The problem I have is that there is a line that is crossed in the LGBT crowd, the Feminist crowd, and even their oppositions. You can be in a movement and acknowledge when something goes too far. But usually those who do so are treated with disdain and called "Anti." The problem is there are PLENTLY of users on Kaizenshuu who go way too fucking extreme with people who simply disagree that they dismiss any and all valid criticism then hide behind their personal feelings rather than listening and having a dialogue. And it is harmful when all that's trying to be had is a dialogue. Could things be typed better? Sure. But when dismissive vitriol is used as a deflector against people who are trying to make a good faith argument as to why they disagree, that's frankly obnoxious. Should I say that people on here are trying to silence my voice as a person who has Aspergers? And whose been manipulated and gaslighted in his life and is calling it out now? All because I disagree with them and what they're saying? No. Because that's ludicrous.

And out of everything you listed, the only problems I have with any of those are the Star Wars films and the Marvel comics, which DO have political agendas that have been bragged about. Again, the line is drawn where it's obnoxious for a character to be diminished to a trait of "I'm a woman and that's all I have going for me!" or "I'm a Muslim. That's about it." Should Julie's only defining factor be that she's Trans? Should the only thing Kaiser be recognized for is that he's gay? Should I only be seen for being on the Autism spectrum? No. Fuck that.

The people behind many Marvel comics and even the recent Star Wars movies have made it clear that they dont give a shit about representation. But they'll sure as hell fucking pander to it to get that sweet, sweet revenue. Rey isn't a character. Finn had his character arc repeated twice and goes from "I love Rey. Notice me Rey" to "A'ight I'mma run away" and Poe has the amazing actor Oscar Isaac which is why he's so damn likable to begin with. But even then in TLJ does horrendous character assassination with him. But that's off topic.

My point is, the people who legit give a shit about representation see the transparency in how these companies don't give a fuck about it. Which is WHY Voltron and Korrasami and other things get negative backlash. It isn't a means to be inclusive. It's an excuse to pretend so they can get a pat on the back and a paycheck. They don't care about stories like Julie's. They don't care about stories like mine. Or yours. Or anyone that actually should have a story about them.

So if you're going to complain and use a comment "ringing hollow" as an argument, make sure you're pointing the finger at the right people. How about actually listening to the people who are making the criticism? Think and read WHY. And if you can't, again, that's on you. Zero and I have made multiple attempts to spell out exactly where we stand on it and that we agree with there needing to be more and better representation. If you want to continue to misconstrue that, I cannot and will not help you there because you're just going to continue arguing in bad faith.

If Zero or I were acting or making comments similar to those you listed about those genre and whatever, I'd give you your point. But frankly, you're wrong on the simple basis the reasons we disagree being actually valid and not just "Muh SJWs are bad, mmkay?" And even then, I've given legitimate grievances I have with some of the aforementioned topics. You don't have to agree, but you also don't have to insist a point is being made that isn't.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:16 am

TheNingen wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:58 am
The people behind many Marvel comics and even the recent Star Wars movies have made it clear that they dont give a shit about representation. But they'll sure as hell fucking pander to it to get that sweet, sweet revenue. Rey isn't a character. Finn had his character arc repeated twice and goes from "I love Rey. Notice me Rey" to "A'ight I'mma run away" and Poe has the amazing actor Oscar Isaac which is why he's so damn likable to begin with. But even then in TLJ does horrendous character assassination with him. But that's off topic.
Even if the writing was bad (it wasn't), then it's merely bad execution, not an issue with intent. I don't know what it is about that one damn movie that has people in such a huff. And what if it was all about the benjamins? As long as it's not resorting to negative flat out stereotypes, I can think of plenty of worse things than including more diverse cast of characters and actors, especially in a world like Star Wars that is inherently diverse.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:16 am

I hate being grouped with these alt right reactionaries when that's legitimately the first time I've ever used that phrase in any context. Especially as a black guy.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:35 am

jjgp1112 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:16 am
I hate being grouped with these alt right reactionaries when that's legitimately the first time I've ever used that phrase in any context. Especially as a black guy.
The problem is the Right tricked you idiots (general you) into toning down your dialog and thus turning certain things into dirty words. Such as “progressive” “liberal agenda” and yes, “identity politics”. NONE of these are dirty words to be afraid of. Stop letting evil conservatives (redundant) dictate our language.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by supersaiyanZero » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:55 am

DemonRin wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:52 am
This grand statement about "Just wanting GOOD representation" and "Only Bad representation is Identity politics" line of reasoning rings hollow when there are scores of people ready to declare anything and everything "Identity Politics" at the drop of a hat.

Last of Us Part II trailer showed Ellie kissing her girlfriend.
"THEY'RE FORCING IDENTITY POLITICS INTO OUR GAMES! SJWS RUIN EVERYTHING!"

A Star Wars movie has a Girl, a Black guy, a latino guy, an Asian girl and a woman with purple hair in it.
"STAR WAS WAS RUINED BY IDENTITY POLITICS!!"

She-Ra gets a pretty awesome reboot that has characters with tons of different body types and skin colors and loads of LGBT representation.
"I GREW UP WITH MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE! NOW IT'S JUST IDENTITY POLITICS CRAP!!"

After 20+ movies where all the protagonists of every solo Marvel movie was a straight white guy, Marvel makes two movies, one with a black guy lead and one with a female lead.
"MARVEL'S GONE FULL WOKE SJW!! IDENTITY POLITICS OVER PLOT!!"

Marvel introduces a Pakistani Muslim girl as the new Ms. Marvel. Her supporting cast includes a Lesbian.
"THAT'S NOT A COMIC BOOK! IT'S NOTHING BUT IDENTITY POLITICS PROPAGANDA!!"

Zombie Land Saga introduces a Trans girl character.
"NO! THERE'S NO WAY SHE'S TRANS! IT MUST HAVE BEEN A ROGUE TRANSLATOR INJECTING IDENTITY POLITICS INTO THE TRANSLATION!!"

Mortal Kombat includes a subtle nod to a character being Gay that the creators confirmed on twitter.
"NOW EVEN MORTAL KOMBAT HAS IDENTITY POLITICS!? BAAAAAH!"

Some fan makes a fun Trans Pride color skin for the new Bee in Minecraft and it blows up into a wholesome little meme about the Minecraft bee being trans. It's not officially part of the game, just a fun meme.
"HOW IS THE BEE SUPPOSED TO BE TRANS?! WHY ARE THESE SJWS TRYING TO INJECT IDENTITY POLITICS INTO MINECRAFT!!"

Gears of War 5 includes Pride flags of many kinds as optional flags you can put on your character.
"GEARS IS DEAD! KILLED BY IDENTITY POLITICS"


I can keep going.

Every single one of those things is something I'd call pretty damn good representation. Every single one of them had real outrage and people whining about them being "Identity Politics".
When you have a cadre of reactionaries on a hair trigger to get mad and throw a fit and scream "Identity Politics!" at seemingly every single instance of representation, good or bad it dulls the idea that this outrage is only ever directed at the bad ones.
There are morons on both sides. People need to learn to actually read again and think for themselves instead of shuffling along to group think whether it's on the left or right.

I'm glad ningen is able to articulate (much better) what I've been saying.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Kendamu » Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:13 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
Kendamu wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:56 pm
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am


You are free to interpret Piccolo however you like. If him being a plant alien in a strange world resonates with someone being nonbinary, then all the power to you. You seem to throw out a lot of strawman arguments - acknowledging something that is blatantly related to identity politics as such is in no way homophobia. We are talking about retconning an established character for the sake of pandering. Why is that so hard to understand? Should we go back and edit some of the characters to be black since they were so poorly represented 30 years ago?
You calling me and others like me "identity politics" to begin with is pretty terrible and works to diminish the legitimacy of my existence in the eyes of the world at large. It's not a "strawman" to call you out for saying it. You're just being a terrible person because you're uncomfortable with folks like us in your fandom.

We're not a political stance or ideology. We're actual people just trying to live our lives.

Also, theres no retconning going on. Piccolo is asexual and his physiology and reproductive methods don't align to his masculine presentation. It's in the damn manga.

Be a better person!!
Nobody is calling you identity politics. Nobody is diminishing you as a human being. And it might be somewhat of a shock, but most people don't care if you're trans, non-binary, queer, double-binary, or any other letter of the alphabet. I certainly don't.

What I do care about, is injecting identity politics (or any political agenda, for that matter) in a kung fu cartoon. I care because A) It's something I've grown up with and have an emotional attachment to the 30+ years of source material and more importantly because B) on principle I cannot in any way shape or form ever think that retconning previous works simply to pander to a political ideology is ever OK.

I've never diminished your personal existence. There is not one iota of evidence to support that. This is a bullshit, manipulative way to play a victim of some sort of injustice and therefore invalidate anything I have or will say.

You may, in your infinite ignorance, have branded the term identity politics as an assault on your existence. You might want to educate yourself in that regard. Me and many others are tired of certain groups forming their own off-brand political brand based on whatever identity they choose to be that day, and (speaking broadly here) claiming that because the status quo is oppressing them they have a right to reshape the world in their image no questions asked. And anybody who doesn't agree is a homophobic alt right nazi slave owner bigot. This is not a dismissal of socioeconimic problems that are specifically affecting minorities., which is a very real and systematic issue and the coalition of groups dedicated to this needs to be strengthened.

Yes, there are people that are trying to "legislate you out of existence" for lack of a better term. Yes, this is a problem - there is a lot of ignorance on both sides. I wish we could deal with said problem much more directly that we do as a society, but unfortunately religion still has a stranglehold on the minds of people in the 21st century and religious zealots still run rampant in this country. You need to understand though, that I view these narrow minded divisive religious zealots the same way as I view a few narrow minded divisive LBGTQ zealots. They are two sides of the same coin as far as I'm concerned. For you to claim that I assaulted your existence is so damn shameless, so fucking low I can't even think to imagine what kind of person you are.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:56 pm
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
You seem to throw out a lot of strawman arguments - acknowledging something that is blatantly related to identity politics as such is in no way homophobia. We are talking about retconning an established character for the sake of pandering. Why is that so hard to understand?
At this point, someone needs to actually take a moment to pause and firmly establish, in solidly ironclad terms, what precisely the fuck it is that LGBTQ+ people are expected to say or do - be it in day to day life, in pop cultural representation in media, or in online discussions like this one - in order for them to NOT have the "identity politics" label thrown at them.

Because nearly every single fucking time this same idiotic, purposefully nebulous talking point gets raised, the subtext apparently always seems to be "they need to either not exist, or at least they need to stop reminding me that they exist: out of sight, out of mind".

As has already been alluded to, "identity politics" in these kinds of discussions has long shown itself to basically be dogwhistle for "anything relating to real world minority groups that makes me feel the least bit uncomfortable, up to and including any remote acknowledgement of the realities of their problems or even the fact that they exist anywhere within my close proximity".

Which yes, makes the whole "identity politics" term, within these kinds of specific contexts at least, pretty solidly homophobic (and/or racist) in nature. Because usually, 9 times out of 10, it basically just amounts to "stop reminding me that minorities and/or topics related to minorities are things that exist in and throughout ANY piece of media that I ever consume, I simply DON'T want to ever have to think about or acknowledge them in any serious fashion". Its basically a desperate cry for a - wait for it - for a safe space from anything that isn't firmly CIS/White/Hetero/Masculine or whatever.

Also, even though Kendamu had already laid this out pretty succinctly, I'll reiterate the point home further: Piccolo has always been asexual. Its RIGHT THERE in Toriyama's own original manga (and in the original anime as well). He's a sexless alien beings that reproduces via vomiting up eggs. He identifies as masculine (while also simultaneously having matriarchal traits inherent to his race, further blurring the gender/sexual lines with him), but is otherwise 100% asexual IN THE ORIGINAL FUCKING CANON FROM 30 YEARS AGO. There's ZERO fucking retconning at play here in discussing the character as asexual (and non-binary) in nature.

There's been a recurring theme throughout the past several years where reactionaries online seem to genuinely not realize that these kinds of non-binary gender/sex concepts have ALWAYS existed throughout both real life (including throughout human history) and within pop culture/media since decades and decades and decades ago, are not anything the least bit new, and thus they have a tendency to react to them and regard them as if they're concepts that have only literally JUST NOW within the past few years been invented from wholecloth by the dreaded "SJWs" in order to enact... some totally ill-defined and vague "agenda" (the specifics of which no one can EVER seem to be bothered to actually go into and define what exactly it is and why exactly its so terrible in the first place).

This has always been comically ridiculous, moronic, and asinine: and within the context of Dragon Ball fandom, asserting that Piccolo being deemed asexual is "retconning to pander to identity politics" within a present-day context, when its always been right there in the fucking original manga/anime for ALL these many years now... that's certainly no exception and takes on a whole new level of staggering dimness and complete failure of basic-most critical thinking.
It's only a dogwhistle for homophobia because you disagree with anything that doesn't align your world view. When someone shouts from the top of the building "I don't feel represented, change this character to align with my projections" for some reason they sound much louder than those that are shouting "There is a staggering increase in black families without fathers". One deals with someones selfish desire to feel important, while the other deals with a very complicated, extremely systematic problem that requires a lot of attention and unpacking. But people like you take away from that.

I'll lay it for you what I believe in so you can call me whatever you want: I believe there are two genders (with the rare genetic aberration every now and then) Male and Female. Biologically speaking, anywho.

I also believe there are social constructs of genders, based on the strengths and weaknesses specific to men and women over thousands of years. I believe some of these constructs are valid, while others aren't. I believe that men have inherent strengths and weaknesses, and women have inherent strengths and weaknesses. I believe society started to cater to these strengths and weaknesses but has largely ran off the rails in terms of equality.

Enter the trans. I don't know. Like, I really don't. I don't begin to think that I can understand what it feels like to be born in a female body but really feel like you are male. And you know what? That's fine. To me, that person is still biologically a female. Do they identify as a dude? Sure. Who cares. It's really a bigger deal to you than it is to me. But I don't for a second question the validity of their existence or experience.

I don't think that these people have somehow transcended human biology and are some 9th level dimensional consciousness though. I think they are undertaking the most basic and arguably greatest quest any human has the privilege of undertaking: discovering who they are and creating that reality for themselves. If you want to call yourself Xir, that's fine - but to get offended when someone does not is fucking ludicrous for such a number of reasons.

I think it's an interesting development of the human condition that raises more questions than answers. I think it's also because this is probably the most tolerant time in human history. I like to romanticize that these people are able to look at human individuals and fall in love with them beyond their biological state. It is revolutionary, at least in my eyes.

Is there more room for tolerance and understanding of the LBGT community? Of course there is. Absolutely there is. I think this is a really important time in humanity and unfortunately it's something that people are going to have to take time accepting. LBGTneeds a platform for this and many other reasons. However, this militarized extremist "If you don't agree with everything I say than you're a bigot" is completely stupid and counterproductive, not to mention reminiscent of so many Machiavellian ideologies and methods that were used for oppression. Why isn't the LBGT community up in arms over the censoring that Rotten Tomatoes did when it came to Batwoman and Chappelle's Sticks and Stones? I'm pissed when straight white people do it and call them out on it whether I align with their world view or not. The golden rule, above all else, is hold yourself accountable. If you feel represented by a certain organized effort and they start misrepresenting facts, creating further division, or clearly pursuing an agenda that is masquerading as a just cause to your movement, hold them accountable.

Piccolo was written and created by a Japanese guy 30 years ago. He's a fucking alien. He's probably genderless and asexual because he's a fucking walking, talking, karate chopping plant. He sounds masculine and portrays masculine behaviors because he was written by a dude. He doesn't "identify" as shit except maybe Namekian. Is there room for opportunity to use this piece of lore to perhaps, maybe expand his character's isolation that might resonate with the LBGT community? You know what, absolutely. If it's handled well I'm all for it. If it's simply slapping him with a label because people want some sort of label to appease whoever, then I'm absolutely against that. It's really not that hard to understand.
Sounds like you're just uncomfortable with being called out because real world LGBTQ folks are seeing themselves in some things that are established canon for Piccolo and you don't like that you have to share your kiddie anime with "the gays."

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:41 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:07 pm
It is worth noting that NBC was so afraid of showing the kiss that they literally had two versions of it filmed, one with and one without the kiss.

Nichelle Nicoles-- like a fucking boss-- flubbed every take without the kiss to force the network's hands.
This is arguably a nitpick, but you've got all the details of this story muddled up. Here's Nichols telling the story, but if you don't have time for an 11-minute video here's the cliffnotes:
NBC wasn't really concerned, at least they don't seem to have been, it was the episode's director who took issue with it. Neither Nichols nor Shatner saw an issue (neither did anyone else), but the director called in Roddenberry and two producers from NBC, to communicate his feeling that they shouldn't shoot it with a kiss, and in the end, Roddenberry said "Shoot it both ways."

Nichols, actually, didn't really care. She just wanted to get the work done, really. She's said as much in interviews. Shatner, though, he felt quite strongly about it. So, he had them retake the scene with the kiss over and over again "to get it right", to "just try it this way one more time", sort of playing up a pretentious diva actor angle (and it is worth noting Shatner was somewhat known for being a bit of a diva on set, so this angle worked perfectly)... Then finally, with basically zero time left to shoot, they shot one, single take without the kiss. And in that take, Shatner looked straight at the camera, and crossed his eyes. No one except Shatner and the cameraman (and a couple of production crew guys standing on that side, who weren't gonna say anything; they wanted to just get the day done and go home) knew until shooting was over. Nichols and several others laughed when they saw it in the dailies, and the director didn't know what to say. The suits said "Just go with the kiss.", and that was history.

You're spot on about the impact and the overall point here, and I agree with everything you're saying, I just wanted to correct the details of this story.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by supersaiyanZero » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:14 pm

Kendamu wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:13 pm
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
Kendamu wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:56 pm


You calling me and others like me "identity politics" to begin with is pretty terrible and works to diminish the legitimacy of my existence in the eyes of the world at large. It's not a "strawman" to call you out for saying it. You're just being a terrible person because you're uncomfortable with folks like us in your fandom.

We're not a political stance or ideology. We're actual people just trying to live our lives.

Also, theres no retconning going on. Piccolo is asexual and his physiology and reproductive methods don't align to his masculine presentation. It's in the damn manga.

Be a better person!!
Nobody is calling you identity politics. Nobody is diminishing you as a human being. And it might be somewhat of a shock, but most people don't care if you're trans, non-binary, queer, double-binary, or any other letter of the alphabet. I certainly don't.

What I do care about, is injecting identity politics (or any political agenda, for that matter) in a kung fu cartoon. I care because A) It's something I've grown up with and have an emotional attachment to the 30+ years of source material and more importantly because B) on principle I cannot in any way shape or form ever think that retconning previous works simply to pander to a political ideology is ever OK.

I've never diminished your personal existence. There is not one iota of evidence to support that. This is a bullshit, manipulative way to play a victim of some sort of injustice and therefore invalidate anything I have or will say.

You may, in your infinite ignorance, have branded the term identity politics as an assault on your existence. You might want to educate yourself in that regard. Me and many others are tired of certain groups forming their own off-brand political brand based on whatever identity they choose to be that day, and (speaking broadly here) claiming that because the status quo is oppressing them they have a right to reshape the world in their image no questions asked. And anybody who doesn't agree is a homophobic alt right nazi slave owner bigot. This is not a dismissal of socioeconimic problems that are specifically affecting minorities., which is a very real and systematic issue and the coalition of groups dedicated to this needs to be strengthened.

Yes, there are people that are trying to "legislate you out of existence" for lack of a better term. Yes, this is a problem - there is a lot of ignorance on both sides. I wish we could deal with said problem much more directly that we do as a society, but unfortunately religion still has a stranglehold on the minds of people in the 21st century and religious zealots still run rampant in this country. You need to understand though, that I view these narrow minded divisive religious zealots the same way as I view a few narrow minded divisive LBGTQ zealots. They are two sides of the same coin as far as I'm concerned. For you to claim that I assaulted your existence is so damn shameless, so fucking low I can't even think to imagine what kind of person you are.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:56 pm


At this point, someone needs to actually take a moment to pause and firmly establish, in solidly ironclad terms, what precisely the fuck it is that LGBTQ+ people are expected to say or do - be it in day to day life, in pop cultural representation in media, or in online discussions like this one - in order for them to NOT have the "identity politics" label thrown at them.

Because nearly every single fucking time this same idiotic, purposefully nebulous talking point gets raised, the subtext apparently always seems to be "they need to either not exist, or at least they need to stop reminding me that they exist: out of sight, out of mind".

As has already been alluded to, "identity politics" in these kinds of discussions has long shown itself to basically be dogwhistle for "anything relating to real world minority groups that makes me feel the least bit uncomfortable, up to and including any remote acknowledgement of the realities of their problems or even the fact that they exist anywhere within my close proximity".

Which yes, makes the whole "identity politics" term, within these kinds of specific contexts at least, pretty solidly homophobic (and/or racist) in nature. Because usually, 9 times out of 10, it basically just amounts to "stop reminding me that minorities and/or topics related to minorities are things that exist in and throughout ANY piece of media that I ever consume, I simply DON'T want to ever have to think about or acknowledge them in any serious fashion". Its basically a desperate cry for a - wait for it - for a safe space from anything that isn't firmly CIS/White/Hetero/Masculine or whatever.

Also, even though Kendamu had already laid this out pretty succinctly, I'll reiterate the point home further: Piccolo has always been asexual. Its RIGHT THERE in Toriyama's own original manga (and in the original anime as well). He's a sexless alien beings that reproduces via vomiting up eggs. He identifies as masculine (while also simultaneously having matriarchal traits inherent to his race, further blurring the gender/sexual lines with him), but is otherwise 100% asexual IN THE ORIGINAL FUCKING CANON FROM 30 YEARS AGO. There's ZERO fucking retconning at play here in discussing the character as asexual (and non-binary) in nature.

There's been a recurring theme throughout the past several years where reactionaries online seem to genuinely not realize that these kinds of non-binary gender/sex concepts have ALWAYS existed throughout both real life (including throughout human history) and within pop culture/media since decades and decades and decades ago, are not anything the least bit new, and thus they have a tendency to react to them and regard them as if they're concepts that have only literally JUST NOW within the past few years been invented from wholecloth by the dreaded "SJWs" in order to enact... some totally ill-defined and vague "agenda" (the specifics of which no one can EVER seem to be bothered to actually go into and define what exactly it is and why exactly its so terrible in the first place).

This has always been comically ridiculous, moronic, and asinine: and within the context of Dragon Ball fandom, asserting that Piccolo being deemed asexual is "retconning to pander to identity politics" within a present-day context, when its always been right there in the fucking original manga/anime for ALL these many years now... that's certainly no exception and takes on a whole new level of staggering dimness and complete failure of basic-most critical thinking.
It's only a dogwhistle for homophobia because you disagree with anything that doesn't align your world view. When someone shouts from the top of the building "I don't feel represented, change this character to align with my projections" for some reason they sound much louder than those that are shouting "There is a staggering increase in black families without fathers". One deals with someones selfish desire to feel important, while the other deals with a very complicated, extremely systematic problem that requires a lot of attention and unpacking. But people like you take away from that.

I'll lay it for you what I believe in so you can call me whatever you want: I believe there are two genders (with the rare genetic aberration every now and then) Male and Female. Biologically speaking, anywho.

I also believe there are social constructs of genders, based on the strengths and weaknesses specific to men and women over thousands of years. I believe some of these constructs are valid, while others aren't. I believe that men have inherent strengths and weaknesses, and women have inherent strengths and weaknesses. I believe society started to cater to these strengths and weaknesses but has largely ran off the rails in terms of equality.

Enter the trans. I don't know. Like, I really don't. I don't begin to think that I can understand what it feels like to be born in a female body but really feel like you are male. And you know what? That's fine. To me, that person is still biologically a female. Do they identify as a dude? Sure. Who cares. It's really a bigger deal to you than it is to me. But I don't for a second question the validity of their existence or experience.

I don't think that these people have somehow transcended human biology and are some 9th level dimensional consciousness though. I think they are undertaking the most basic and arguably greatest quest any human has the privilege of undertaking: discovering who they are and creating that reality for themselves. If you want to call yourself Xir, that's fine - but to get offended when someone does not is fucking ludicrous for such a number of reasons.

I think it's an interesting development of the human condition that raises more questions than answers. I think it's also because this is probably the most tolerant time in human history. I like to romanticize that these people are able to look at human individuals and fall in love with them beyond their biological state. It is revolutionary, at least in my eyes.

Is there more room for tolerance and understanding of the LBGT community? Of course there is. Absolutely there is. I think this is a really important time in humanity and unfortunately it's something that people are going to have to take time accepting. LBGTneeds a platform for this and many other reasons. However, this militarized extremist "If you don't agree with everything I say than you're a bigot" is completely stupid and counterproductive, not to mention reminiscent of so many Machiavellian ideologies and methods that were used for oppression. Why isn't the LBGT community up in arms over the censoring that Rotten Tomatoes did when it came to Batwoman and Chappelle's Sticks and Stones? I'm pissed when straight white people do it and call them out on it whether I align with their world view or not. The golden rule, above all else, is hold yourself accountable. If you feel represented by a certain organized effort and they start misrepresenting facts, creating further division, or clearly pursuing an agenda that is masquerading as a just cause to your movement, hold them accountable.

Piccolo was written and created by a Japanese guy 30 years ago. He's a fucking alien. He's probably genderless and asexual because he's a fucking walking, talking, karate chopping plant. He sounds masculine and portrays masculine behaviors because he was written by a dude. He doesn't "identify" as shit except maybe Namekian. Is there room for opportunity to use this piece of lore to perhaps, maybe expand his character's isolation that might resonate with the LBGT community? You know what, absolutely. If it's handled well I'm all for it. If it's simply slapping him with a label because people want some sort of label to appease whoever, then I'm absolutely against that. It's really not that hard to understand.
Sounds like you're just uncomfortable with being called out because real world LGBTQ folks are seeing themselves in some things that are established canon for Piccolo and you don't like that you have to share your kiddie anime with "the gays."
In one ear, out the other - and then slam someone with an anti-LBGT label. Predictable and straight out of Fox News' playbook.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:05 pm

Seriously, stop treating the term “identity politics” like it’s a BAD thing. You are all playing into the AltRight/Republican (no difference really) handbook. Idiots letting them dictate the language of politics is why you LOSE!

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:21 pm

Not to mention, the media starting to have more diversity is nice for once. I think the help of social media has give people a voice compare to the 2000s.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by SSJGAffleck » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:11 am

Honestly, a question I would love to know as we know Piccolo is asexual but what do y'all think, is he aromantic or could he end up finding someone to date but not have sex with?
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