Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:15 am

SSJGAffleck wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:11 am
Honestly, a question I would love to know as we know Piccolo is asexual but what do y'all think, is he aromantic or could he end up finding someone to date but not have sex with?
At this point I think it's safe to say that he's aromantic, with Gohan as a possible exception. :p

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:16 am

SSJGAffleck wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:11 am
Honestly, a question I would love to know as we know Piccolo is asexual but what do y'all think, is he aromantic or could he end up finding someone to date but not have sex with?
He mentioned having no interest in romance after Krillins crush on 18 was revealed to the cast at the end of the Cell saga.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by SSJGAffleck » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:22 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:16 am
SSJGAffleck wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:11 am
Honestly, a question I would love to know as we know Piccolo is asexual but what do y'all think, is he aromantic or could he end up finding someone to date but not have sex with?
He mentioned having no interest in romance after Krillins crush on 18 was revealed to the cast at the end of the Cell saga.
Oh, yeah you're right! I completely forgot about that! So I guess not, he does seem to prefer to be alone and already has a family in terms of Gohan, Videl, and Pan.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by TheNingen » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:41 am

ABED wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:16 am
TheNingen wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:58 am
The people behind many Marvel comics and even the recent Star Wars movies have made it clear that they dont give a shit about representation. But they'll sure as hell fucking pander to it to get that sweet, sweet revenue. Rey isn't a character. Finn had his character arc repeated twice and goes from "I love Rey. Notice me Rey" to "A'ight I'mma run away" and Poe has the amazing actor Oscar Isaac which is why he's so damn likable to begin with. But even then in TLJ does horrendous character assassination with him. But that's off topic.
Even if the writing was bad (it wasn't), then it's merely bad execution, not an issue with intent. I don't know what it is about that one damn movie that has people in such a huff. And what if it was all about the benjamins? As long as it's not resorting to negative flat out stereotypes, I can think of plenty of worse things than including more diverse cast of characters and actors, especially in a world like Star Wars that is inherently diverse.
You think the writing wasn't bad. I think it was. The issue is the execution and the intent. That's always been the issue. It's also not just TLJ fans have an issue with. It's TFA as well and the execution of both of them. But the loud reactionaries are the only ones people give a spotlight to and don't even bother looking at people who have legitimate criticism about the new trilogy. And yes...Rey and Finn aren't characters. They're paper thin caricatures but the last thing I'm going to get into is why current day Star Wars sucks. I'm not bothered about the cast being diverse. I care about the intent behind why it's diverse and how shallow and transparent it is. I've already gone into detail about Disney not giving a shit about representation besides doing it for the sake of a pat on the back and having money thrown at them. And most of the behind-the-scenes people who deal with Star Wars have proven they're incapable of listening to valid criticisms of their stories and writing and characterization and feel it's easier to ignore those criticisms and slap a disingenous label on those who simply care about the Star Wars. (But hey, I guess even George Lucas' opinion doesn't matter, right?) And when I say people giving criticism, I am not referring to people going "Rey woman bad" or "Finn black man evil" or "Rose dumb azn bitch" (Because I know people will think and say that's what I'm arguing).

Again, when I see a story, or a movie, or whatever, and there's whatever type of character, I do not want them simply being used to make a political statement while having zero substance as a character. That's what Rey is. I would like her more if she wasn't that. But frankly the ONLY good thing about Rey is Daisy Ridley.

But I'm not going to get into a full on debate about Star Wars here. I've made my points and arguments and if people want to ignore it and stay in an echo chamber, that's on them. I'm tired of discussing with close minded people parading as open minded allies who simply refuse to read someone's point because they disagree and don't want to be challenged or take accountability that maybe how they think or argue is wrong. If I wanted to read page upon page of someone dismissing valid criticism and ignoring any and all arguments because of whatever sensibilities they have, I'd just go on Twitter. I expect better from here. Maybe that's my mistake.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:09 am

Finn, Poe and Holdo are boring as dogshit. The sequel trilogy's problems lie in being poorly directed and structure with too little focus on Rey and not enough intimate fan service. Abrams made a ahitty remake of an already shitty film and Johnson made a shitty movie based off some neat concepts for Rey, Rose, the Skywalkers, the First Order and Kylo Ren.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by TheNingen » Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:59 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:09 am
Finn, Poe and Holdo are boring as dogshit. The sequel trilogy's problems lie in being poorly directed and structure with too little focus on Rey and not enough intimate fan service. Abrams made a ahitty remake of an already shitty film and Johnson made a shitty movie based off some neat concepts for Rey, Rose, the Skywalkers, the First Order and Kylo Ren.
But where does structure begin? In the writing. The new trilogy isn't completely devoid of good things going for it, but that doesn't change that it's ridiculously poor from a writing standpoint and doesn't give anything of merit to the characters it serves. Hell, you agreeing with me (in this point...At least I think you're agreeing?) shows my point that Disney doesn't give a flying fuck about providing representation through interesting characters and that's my problem. Rey could be a Mara Jade. Or Satele Shan. Of course EU is a clusterfuck and has some similar issues to modern day Star Wars. But it doesn't change that they're not interested in what they're pretending that they are. Rey COULD be an interesting character. She COULD be likable. Instead she's boring, has no character growth, no heroes journey, no struggles, no nothing. Her claim to fame is that she's a female that can do anything and does everything....for reasons? And Finn isn't much better.

I'm sorry, but I don't want to live in a media world where things like Rey, and KorraSami, and Voltron become what becomes the norm for representation. And what I mean by that is, the argument could be made that "Sure it's awful and vapid and doesn't have much artistic merit aside from being a political statement, but at least we're getting something!" and sure, that's fair. You're getting something rather than nothing.

But, I'm sure we can agree here: I want QUALITY for the LGBT groups for representation. I don't want these media fuckwits getting the message that the aforementioned characters are what people want and how they should be represented. I want quality. Not quantity. And I WANT you to be able to experience and see those well written characters on screen. I WANT you to experience what I do when I see Newt Scamander and think "Wow, he's a lot like me." I want representation that matters. And I don't think that the Kathleen Kennedy's of the world or the Rian Johnson's or the JJ Abrahms of the world are the path to it. Hell, I don't think a lot of the current writers and people who claim to be "allies" are going in the right direction because they're losing sight of what they were doing to begin with.

I'd rather have more media like Spider-Man: Into the Spider Verse (Which is a movie I hold near and dear to my heart despite not personally being able to identify with Miles or Gwen or Penny or ...Spider-Ham? But loving all of them regardless) and less like Star Wars/Disney, Korra, etc. Into the Spider Verse did it perfectly.

Inclusion shouldn't be a spur of the moment decision that you spring in at your finale and then get pissy when fans have backlash. Representation shouldn't be a tool used to gain praise and money. It should be used to tell real and meaningful stories, with real and meaningful characters. Not something shoehorned in, or retconned (Not using this in context of Piccolo), or anything like that. And as much as I love Dragon Ball, I don't believe in it to tell or provide a character or story with that level of nuance. I don't think it's an appropriate medium for it to give it the justice it deserves. That is and always was my argument.

I want you guys to have characters and representation that is worthy of you and is able to show others your struggles and stories without reducing you to a political punchline. Fight to be represented, voice your opinions, make yourselves known, but at the same time, don't view any dissent or criticisms as just mindless arguing trying to silence you (you being general here) or reduce your staying power or anything like that. We want what you do. We just want it done right like you probably do. We already have Rian Johnson and his ilk acting smug and condescending when people try and say "Hey, you helped write and direct a pretty poor movie and here's why" then slapping a label on them and not bothering to listen or communicate. There are trolls out there. I'm not dismissing that. There are those making dumb points in bad faith to be reactionary and regurgitating shit from right-wing Youtubers who do seek to just slap a "Hurr SJW" label on anything. And that's a lot of what irritated Zero and I to begin with. (Also, personally, I only use that sort of label or whatever when I think something is too reactionary and against what the core of the movement or fight is. Even if a movement in itself is good, it is always important to call out when shit goes too far. Too much of a good thing CAN be a bad thing as we've found out in many topics revolving around our current political climate)

Anyway, my posts have been lengthy. And I've said pretty much all I can while being redundant along the way. So this will probably be my last post in the thread. Hopefully points are more clear now and lessons can be learned and we can all move on and be chummy. I'd rather not have this be a Youtube comments thread.
Last edited by TheNingen on Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:14 am

SSJGAffleck wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:22 am
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:16 am
SSJGAffleck wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:11 am
Honestly, a question I would love to know as we know Piccolo is asexual but what do y'all think, is he aromantic or could he end up finding someone to date but not have sex with?
He mentioned having no interest in romance after Krillins crush on 18 was revealed to the cast at the end of the Cell saga.
Oh, yeah you're right! I completely forgot about that! So I guess not, he does seem to prefer to be alone and already has a family in terms of Gohan, Videl, and Pan.
He said he doesn't "get it". As someone that doesn't inherently understand what would make Kuririn interested in someone like 18 the whole back and forth between them on the lookout would seem extremely confusing. But yes, him being uninterested in romance is strongly implied and I think it's safe to say he is severely aromatic. Not to mention there's also Toriyama's legendary aversion to romance. Who knows, maybe Piccolo became his favorite character because he never had to worry about pairing him up with anyone.
I'm not against the idea of him giving romance a try , but seeing as I rarely like romantic relationships in media, I would rather they focus on his friendship and family-like bonds- dynamics which too often get sidelined in favor of the romantic one (yes, I know, it's the one that sells more).

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:37 am

And there are valid criticisms to be made about the original trilogy, but overall they and TLJ did more than enough right that I consider them legitimately well done and don't consider the diversity of the casts to be purely a matter pandering to the audience looking for any representation. I don't think you're way off base. Finn is absolutely a character. He goes from brainwashed child solider who rebels against the FO to joining the Resistance and fighting FOR it. That's his arc over the course of the two films. Rose's line about winning by not fighting what we hate but defending what we love.

You say the reason the cast is diverse is for the money and it's transparent, but not only am I unfazed by such a motive even if it were true, I don't think it holds much water.

Last point, I don't think any creator should listen to "valid criticisms" by fans. There are too many fans to listen to all of them, and that's a recipe for pandering. I don't disagree because I'm not reading what you wrote or considering it. It's VERY possible to read your argument, give it the proper consideration, but still come to a different conclusion. I have friends whose opinions I trust, and we still often have very different opinions on pop culture. I agree that living in an echo chamber is a bad idea, but that goes both ways.

In my last paragraph I'll attempt to make this applicable to DB. I have little issue with companies pandering to under-represented people for money and any project that has that sort of mindset is likely going to have bigger issues than putting a gay couple in a show for ratings. The issue I have is outright offensive stuff like equating homosexuality with pedophilia as is the case with General Blue.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:48 am

I don't particularly like or dislike Rey. She's just... there. Which might actually be a sign of worse writing than if I hated her.

However I think Kylo Ren is a lame and unimpressive villain, and I have trouble taking him seriously. If you replaced him with someone else it would fix 90% of the problems with the new movies (IMO).
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:57 pm

I know we're getting off-topic here, but the issue with the new Star Wars films really isn't the inclusion, it's just the fact that the entire thing is a boring cash grab. Poe and Finn are just there to recreate the Luke, Han and Leia dynamic with Rey. The movies should instead focus on Rey and Kylo Ren with Rose as Rey's best friend and any sort of subplot handling.

The Force Awakens should have begun with a fifteen year old Rey searching through the crashed Star Destroyer and finding an officer's quarters full of Jedi artifacts, including the Skywalker light saber. From there Rey would study for a few weeks before the ghost of Anakin (Christensen) and a 'shadow' of Luke (Hamill) started appearing to her and helping her train, essentially acting as her two dads. Two years of this would pass before Rey gets fed up with her life on Jaaku and hitches a ride with, you guessed it, Han Solo and Chewbacca on the Millenium Falcon. That's easily enough material for half and hour to establish Rey's personality, her hobbies, and her dynamic with Anakin and Luke's shadow (not the real Luke, but rather a piece of him that remains spiritually with the Skywalker saber). This way you can start a new generation while also sending celebrating the past two generations.

Let's insert as the main character more. Rey isn't likable enough in the films as-is to really care about the plot.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:48 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:41 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:35 pm
I would love a scene where Piccolo had to correct someone for calling them a man or trying to make a move on them.
lol, i don't really agree but this did remind of one of my favorite piccolo moments.

Image

He may have an aromantic and ascetic nature, but in some scenes he does seem a little excited.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:34 pm

Honestly, if Toei actually wanted to promote LGBTQ characters, Dragon Ball isn’t the franchise I’d go with. Something like Sailor Moon would be much more fitting and already has a following with the LGBT community. Plus isn’t Haruka canonically non-binary?

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:18 pm

Representation is not so complex that it cannot be done in Dragon Ball. Literally Piccolo saying "I'm asexual" is a good first step. The novel I'm working on is actually centered on LGBTQIA+ themes so of course it would focus a lot on it but for a series like Dragon Ball it's enough to have characters openly queer. I mean, hell, all that was missing from the Gokuu Black and Zamasu interactions was a few kisses between them. Then there's Kale, Caulifla and Ribrien's group, all practically women-loving-women. Simply not dancing around their obvious queerness is the one step left to take.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:21 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:18 pm
Representation is not so complex that it cannot be done in Dragon Ball. Literally Piccolo saying "I'm asexual" is a good first step. The novel I'm working on is actually centered on LGBTQIA+ themes so of course it would focus a lot on it but for a series like Dragon Ball it's enough to have characters openly queer. I mean, hell, all that was missing from the Gokuu Black and Zamasu interactions was a few kisses between them. Then there's Kale, Caulifla and Ribrien's group, all practically women-loving-women. Simply not dancing around their obvious queerness is the one step left to take.
I’m not saying it can’t be done in Dragon Ball. I’m just using your premise of Toei promoting LGBTQ characters in a way I think would work better. Otherwise I think I agree, especially about Caulifla and Kale.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:49 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:21 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:18 pm
Representation is not so complex that it cannot be done in Dragon Ball. Literally Piccolo saying "I'm asexual" is a good first step. The novel I'm working on is actually centered on LGBTQIA+ themes so of course it would focus a lot on it but for a series like Dragon Ball it's enough to have characters openly queer. I mean, hell, all that was missing from the Gokuu Black and Zamasu interactions was a few kisses between them. Then there's Kale, Caulifla and Ribrien's group, all practically women-loving-women. Simply not dancing around their obvious queerness is the one step left to take.
I’m not saying it can’t be done in Dragon Ball. I’m just using your premise of Toei promoting LGBTQ characters in a way I think would work better. Otherwise I think I agree, especially about Caulifla and Kale.
But doing both works even better. Sailor Moon has already done it. Dragon Ball, a series with even more reach, isn't going to suffer by doing it now, especially when the former is aimed at adults now and the latter still at children.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:34 am

Ribrianne had a crush on Jiren and in the manga she liked Krillin.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:21 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:34 am
Ribrianne had a crush on Jiren and in the manga she liked Krillin.
By Ribrianne's group I think they mean Kakunsa and Bikal - I think it's safe to say these two are an item.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:09 am

Michsi wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:21 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:34 am
Ribrianne had a crush on Jiren and in the manga she liked Krillin.
By Ribrianne's group I think they mean Kakunsa and Bikal - I think it's safe to say these two are an item.
Yeah, those two, but Ribrianne came off as being a woman-loving-woman to me, too.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:45 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:09 am
Michsi wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:21 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:34 am
Ribrianne had a crush on Jiren and in the manga she liked Krillin.
By Ribrianne's group I think they mean Kakunsa and Bikal - I think it's safe to say these two are an item.
Yeah, those two, but Ribrianne camd off as being a woman-loving-woman to me, too.
She did seem to adore Heles quite a bit, too. Anyway, Universe 2's theme is love so it's fitting that they'd incorporate all sorts of forms of it.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:39 pm

This is just fan fiction hentai at this point.

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