Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:25 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:20 am
2. Do we know indisputably that Namekians are a one gender race that reproduce asexually? The one Namekian we saw do this was a demonic entity who was mostly spitting out decidedly non-Namekian looking spawns until he rebirthed himself. Not sure if we can use him as hard evidence that this is how the species reproduces as a whole.

And yeah it would appear Namekians are all male, certainly any Namekian with speaking lines was, but we don’t (far as I’m aware) know with 100 percent certainty that all Namekians are male. This from a series that mostly leans on being a sausage fest anyways so some of the non-speaking Namekians could have been female.
When Buruma asks Dende whether he is male or female, he has no idea what she is talking about. Dende states that Namekians reproduce by spitting eggs out of their mouths.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:30 am

I don't think you'll have to worry about men-loving men turning on aces just because Piccolo is called ace. Boy's Love comics between Piccolo and Gohan won't go away.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:55 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:30 am
I don't think you'll have to worry about men-loving men turning on aces just because Piccolo is called ace. Boy's Love comics between Piccolo and Gohan won't go away.
I'm not sure if this was a reply for me- but I was thinking more of the other way around. It's about people turning on those who draw FA of Piccolo. Basically policing what people like and draw which we already know happens in abundance. Wasn't a girl nearly driven to suicide a couple of years ago because she was bullied online just for drawing a character a little slimmer than she was depicted in the actual show. I've even seen this ship you mentioned being dragged fiercely, not because it's BL, but because it's "problematic, Stockholm syndrome, unhealthy power-dynamic, grooming" etc etc. Imagine this but ten times worse.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:18 am

There's fanart and fanfiction of every possible pairing in any serious. I wouldn't be surprised to find someone who shipped Dr. Briefs' cat with Freeza.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Marty Kirra » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:11 am

KaiserNeko wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:44 pm
Funny enough, we've already gotten a lot of that with Piccolo; his ace-aero personality has already informed several reactions and lines from him over the course of the series, and we see it Dende's reaction to Bulma. Inadvertently, he's already ace-aero and a symbol of representation within DragonBall.

A series, I should add, that uses sexuality as a JOKE more often than not, and uses romance sparingly and to varying degrees of success. It's hard to say whether or not the series would even benefit from more representation, but if there were some cute jokes or an interesting twist, I'd be okay with that. But I don't personally see that happening, and at this stage, people are more concerned about the general quality of the actual material than whether or not it's offering representation.
I think this is mostly the point I was trying to make with my earlier post. As pointed out by various people in this thread, I think Piccolo already fits the definition, I just feel like with Toei's writing staff that any attempts to clarify this would be clumsy at best, offensive at worst.

As someone else said on here, I just really don't think Dragon Ball is a good platform for introducing these deeper elements to characters. The show is entirely (as of now) focused on fighting the next big bad guy, it feels like forever since there's been any breathing room. This is something I liked a lot about Battle of Gods, since we got to see characters just chilling out and actually being friends. If there was more of that, I think I could see more nuanced discussion about character's personal lives coming about, but as of right now...well, there are other core issues in Dragon Ball to worry about, such as the aforementioned overall quality of the writing.

Also in my earlier reply, I was speaking from the perspective of promoting Piccolo as an ace/agender/NB icon (although I did for whatever reason say "promoting the character as something that they're not", which as others have stated is not the case here), and I just really don't think Toei/Dragon Ball's writing staff/Toriyama really have the capability to do it well. I would love to be proven wrong and as I said earlier, anything that's done well is fine by me!

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:41 pm

There are many successful series that promote LGBTQ+ characters. She-Ra and Miraculous Ladybug to name a few. It would be nice if DB would join the 21st century.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:57 pm

Boku no Hero Academia has a transgender man as a hero and a transgender woman as a villain. Still waiting for the planet to explode. ❤
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:12 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:57 pm
Boku no Hero Academia has a transgender man as a hero and a transgender woman as a villain. Still waiting for the planet to explode. ❤
I so need to catch up on that.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Ryuji-Otogi » Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:11 pm

Thought we were done with this dumpster fire of a thread 😔

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:21 pm

Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:11 pm
Thought we were done with this dumpster fire of a thread 😔
Ah yes, how dare people enjoy having a slightly esoteric discussion unique to a modern point of view in regards to a 30-year-old franchise. What an utter dumpster fire, and how dare anyone continue to talk in this thread.

Seriously, if you think this thread's a dumpster fire, either you weren't reading it, or it was never for you in the first place, and complaining about it is just shitting on peoples' fun. Let people enjoy things, man.
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by supersaiyanZero » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am

Shaddy wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:43 am
Okay it's Sunday night and I don't really feel like getting any more energetic. I'm gonna make a concerted effort to actually be convincing here even if I'm still a paradox-of-tolerance guy. I hope you take it into consideration.



Again, I admit I think Julie could have gone for different language here, but it seems like you're getting hung up on the tone rather than the point, that privileged people can trend toward dismissing the struggles of others and being selfish. That she is using "white cishet man" as the label is certainly capable of criticism, but I think if you straight up asked her "is there an inherent difference between the behavior of certain races" right now, her answer would still be no. The fact is, society pushes us white dudes to be a certain way, and rejecting that can lead down the path of the groups trying to dismantle those social constructs, or it can push us toward the groups leading to enforce them so toxically that we commit genocide. The nature of the statement about the effects about racial privilege can be criticized, but the effect it describes is statistically, scientifically indisputable.
That's ridiculous. I don't care if if you ask her in a dark room when nobody is listening that she will then admit there is "no inherent difference between races" if she parades around labeling every societal problem with the "white cishet man" stamp. That's like me going around calling people niggers and then privately confiding to someone that black people aren't all that bad. I just..I can't even wrap my head around that logic. Stop making excuses for narrow minded, bigoted thinking.

Do we have white privilege in mainland China? Korea? South America? Is the lack of white privilege there supported by your "undisputed facts"? Also, society does not push white people to commit genocide. Genocide has been committed all over the world, white or not white. It's a dark, territorial human trait that has its roots deep in the animal kingdom. It is not exclusive to white men.

I do not deny the economic advantages that come with being white. But it's not as black and white as you and Julie make it out to be, and nowhere near as simple. We have a systematic class problem. The western world was built by whites, often on the backs of minorities. It makes sense to me then that subsequently those at the top of the class are probably white. That is a problem, yes. But this idea that if you're born white in America in the last 20 years you're automatically 20 steps ahead in life is so incredibly toxic and ignores the class warfare we have going on in this country. There is little privilege in being white if you're born in rural Alabama where the majority of your neighbors live below the poverty line.
Shaddy wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:43 am

Doing this ignores context and makes a false equivalence of the level of suffering white and non-white people experience for their race. White people suffer for our race as much as we suffer for having brown hair or a second toe that's longer than the first. I would be confused by someone hating me for my toes, but ultimately I am unharmed.

Think of it like this: if all the politicians, police, billionaires, conservative pundits, fascist groups and news stations were controlled by black women instead of mostly white men, do you think Julie still would have started that sentence with "white cishet men"? In a "theory-only" bubble your race is no different than your hair or eye color, which is practically useless in terms of defining societal progression. In that bubble, hating white people and hating black people are equivalent. But in terms of the real world, race discussion is about the distribution of power, and has lead to horrible acts of violence and cruelty. And that most definitely isn't equal.
I am not playing the oppression olympics with you. If you want to encourage that line of thinking go ahead, I'm going to simply assume you're ignorant. If roles were reversed and I was living an a black dominated world that you describe, I would surely feel hostility towards "cishet black men". There is no doubt about that. But if I was going to go around blaming everything on the blacks, claiming that because me and my people have suffered more than they have and that gives me the right to point my finger and judge every single black person based on their skin color..I'd be no better. I'd be ignorant. I'd be giving voice to the same mentality that I'm supposedly fighting against and taking away from the voices that are constructively trying to build up their communities. This idea that there are evil white billionaires plotting against minorities in some underground bunker like some sort of maniacal disney villain is stupid. Billionaires only care about one thing - keeping their wealth, whether they are black, white, asian, whatever. The distribution of wealth isn't equal. But that's a more complex problem than simply saying "white people own the world". In terms of the "real world", there have been many horrible acts of violence and cruelty and can't just simply be boiled down to "those damn white billionaires". That's an incredibly narrow way of looking at things.

And don't tell me for a second that hate isn't equal. While I can certainly acknowledge the collective frustration among minorities and take that into account, I am not going to placate anyone and tell them that yes, they have to right to label, judge, and criticize people off their skin color. That is a very slippery slope my friend.

Shaddy wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:43 am

I'd really like to know where you're getting this. In my experience it basically never happens unless an individual mistakenly (or maliciously) conflates the whiteness with their own shitty behavior.

I will admit I have seen people vent in private about the way they've been treated for their race by white people, but I still know better than to conflate this with the white fascist groups trying to influence policy for purposes of ethnic cleansing, and I recognize that even if that is what they wanted, they have far, FAR less power to make anything resembling that happen.

For reference, even acknowledging that their existence is kind of America's fault, lefties aren't going to be any nicer to ISIS or Al Qaeda than your local skinhead group.
I don't know where you live. I live in a very progressive metropolitan city. I have supported the left, marched with them, debated for them. I have noticed that the more the left embraced this "white people are evil and the cause of all problems" mentality, the further I have been pushed away and excluded. This is a first hand account. This is not conjecture. I am routinely silenced because of my skin color even though I support many of the same ideals the left has. If I disagree with something, it's simply because I am white. My neighbor, a very liberal mixed girl happens to be a very entitled brat. Our first encounter with her ended with her calling me a "white piece of shit" among other things. Any attempt to reason with her ends with "you're just a white fucking male, why don't you move" etc. You know how that makes me feel? Angry. Resentful. You know what happens with that? People tend to throw those feelings back. It's fucking toxic. Thankfully, I could care less but the idea that you can so openly say something like to someone and garner support and applause is fucking scary and a symptom of what could end up being a MUCH larger problem. Again, slippery slope. ( My roommates, who are also liberal and NOT white, actually couldn't believe her behavior)

Shaddy wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:43 am


The simple fact is: white racism makes things bad for white people too. Getting rid of it in all forms would improve different things for us than for people of color, but it would improve things nonetheless, unless you really want to profit from a system unfairly biased toward you. In a similar way, feminism? Has tons of things to say about how men can be made happier, and how gender equality will improve things for them too. It's not a zero-sum game, basic human compassion and empathy aren't finite resources that only get expended for certain groups and others are willfully discriminated against.

I understand self-conscious feelings about whiteness in discussions like this, but that's a result of white racism, not the people trying to get rid of it. We shouldn't mistake our friends for enemies. If you think anti-racism measures are doing something bad, then you need to express your opinion on constructing better ways of fighting racism. None of this includes shutting down discussion with "you just hate white people".
Again, boiling something like that down to simply a result of "white racism" is overly simplistic and ignorant of a complex problem. (There is a theme here...) I don't even want to get into feminism as that movement has been completely hijacked and is doing neither gender any favors.
Shaddy wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:43 am

This would make me question who exactly you think "the left" is. It's a set of principles, if people are really actually not holding themselves to those, they're just gonna get kicked out. I have never seen a good-faith reasoning as to how the left is supposedly going off-the-rails, the closest I've ever seen to it is the "Bush conspired to make 9/11 happen" crowd. Right wing beliefs tend to be fashioned (fascioned?) more off of looking at anything the left does that they don't like and attacking it. This is where the term "reactionary" comes from.


The left's understanding of systemic issues, focus on pushing for equal representation and rights, those aren't racially-oppressing actions, they're equalizing ones, regardless of the language they use while doing it. I went through this phase as well in high school. Seeing what restrictions others face for meaningless social constructs like race doesn't mean you have it easy, but it means you should be mindful, conscientious of what experiences others have had and not be so quick to write off movements for equality as "corrupt" because a post on twitter or reddit or something said a member of one did a bad thing.

It's also not like the right's methods. The Jewish question, scientific racism, terrorist denialism, this stuff is nonsense. It falls apart under the barest of scrutiny. The people pushing it are usually motivated by a feeling of emasculation from society and fear that they will never be accepted, but take the path of bigotry because for many it is, in fact, more comforting to be angry and wrong than to be sad and correct. Despair can be crippling, but anger can be motivating.
I know what the principles of the left are. I largely agree with them on a fundamental level. I'm politically active in that regard, so when I tell you left wing extremists that are now the most vocal part of the party are going off the rails and hurting their own cause I fucking mean it. Some of the tactics are deplorable. We have shifted from fighting for equality to placing blame on a large group of people and demanding...something. A lot of it is self indulgent, buzzfeed headline nonsense. Lofty ideals wrapped in whatever is trendy this minute. It pisses me off, to be honest.

Shaddy wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:43 am
In terms of "left hates whitey"...no, I really don't see it. Hell, I follow a lot of the biggest leftubers. Oliver Thorne, Harry Brewis, Ian Danskin, Shaun, Three Arrows, the only one who isn't a white guy is Contrapoints, and she's still white. I have never felt alienated from leftist discussion for my race or gender, I've never felt encouraged to alienate people from leftist discussion for race or gender, I've never seen other people alienated from leftist discussion for race or gender. When an Innuendo Studios video starts a sentence with "white people don't see this as x", I know better than to assume he's talking about all white people, and I think you would too.

It's never too late to learn to be better to people that have had a tough time of it, no matter how you might think they compare to you. I think in general we need more spaces for people trying to transition away from this radicalized defense of the status quo and get more of a forward-thinking mindset going, but aren't there yet. Something private, maybe administrated by progressives and ex-reactionaries where people are encouraged to change, but not in the moment judged. I don't have the answers on how to create this, but it's something to think about.
Then we must be living in two different worlds. Although I agree with your conclusion that we need a more forward thinking mindset. And as far as 9/11 is concerned...well. That's interesting. I have to admit, by the way, that this was the first time I've seen you post in a manner that isn't (mostly) condescending and for what it's worth Shaddy, I appreciate it.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:53 am

If you put me in a dark room I'm more likely to find a bed and go to sleep than give a hanky about whatever weird conspiracy you keep trying to peddle.

I don't have a Sound Cloud so let me just say: donate directly to trans people. Charities are just middle men, find a trans person in need and donate to them that way.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by supersaiyanZero » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:55 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:53 am
If you put me in a dark room I'm more likely to find a bed and go to sleep than give a hanky about whatever weird conspiracy you keep trying to peddle.

I don't have a Sound Cloud so let me just say: donate directly to trans people. Charities are just middle men, find a trans person in need and donate to them that way.
You're woefully ignorant and any attempt to have a conversation with you is absolutely in vain. Stay "woke" bro.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:27 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:55 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:53 am
If you put me in a dark room I'm more likely to find a bed and go to sleep than give a hanky about whatever weird conspiracy you keep trying to peddle.

I don't have a Sound Cloud so let me just say: donate directly to trans people. Charities are just middle men, find a trans person in need and donate to them that way.
You're woefully ignorant and any attempt to have a conversation with you is absolutely in vain. Stay "woke" bro.
>Misgendering the trans woman who doesn't want to waste her time arguing with someone who wants to die on the hill of "white cishet men don't have a systemic advantage over everyone else in society".
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Bansho64 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:35 pm

Honestly? Go for it. It's been pretty much understood with a lot of folks that Piccolo is asexual. The series points to him as such.

If they were to craft a storyline which addresses it or even puts a spotlight on it, I'm totally down. He's always been a character that I love and that's a part of him I wouldn't mind being shown more in a well crafted story.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
I do not deny the economic advantages that come with being white But it's not as black and white as you and Julie make it out to be, and nowhere near as simple.
It really goes far beyond economic advantages. So much that an entire discussion could probably be held around just how much it is. And these discussions have been made. For years. And years.

And it is literally EXACTLY as black and white as they say it is. To me, it just makes little sense to make a sentence saying that you "realize the advantages" and then follow it up with that. You say you don't deny it, but do you understand it?
Last edited by Bansho64 on Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:44 pm

Last I heard we have insofar seen twenty-two black trans women murdered in 2019. As a white woman I've got the systemic privileged of being white to lower my chances of being murdered. Of course, white gals such as myself still get murdered, but in this way my whiteness is a systemic advantage I have over persons of color.

Don't even get me started on how people of color are prosecuted under the arbitrary differences in sentencing for crack versus coke.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Jord » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:35 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:27 pm
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:55 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:53 am
If you put me in a dark room I'm more likely to find a bed and go to sleep than give a hanky about whatever weird conspiracy you keep trying to peddle.

I don't have a Sound Cloud so let me just say: donate directly to trans people. Charities are just middle men, find a trans person in need and donate to them that way.
You're woefully ignorant and any attempt to have a conversation with you is absolutely in vain. Stay "woke" bro.
>Misgendering the trans woman who doesn't want to waste her time arguing with someone who wants to die on the hill of "white cishet men don't have a systemic advantage over everyone else in society".
Suuuuure they have.

Maybe it's time to steer this back on topic instead of it turning into CSI.
JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:44 pm
Last I heard we have insofar seen twenty-two black trans women murdered in 2019. As a white woman I've got the systemic privileged of being white to lower my chances of being murdered. Of course, white gals such as myself still get murdered, but in this way my whiteness is a systemic advantage I have over persons of color.

Don't even get me started on how people of color are prosecuted under the arbitrary differences in sentencing for crack versus coke.
It's such a shame to see how Piccolo was treated after the #17 fight which was probably the last time he was relevant as a fighter. He became a tutor to Gotenks and after that basically turned into just another fighter, standing way behind Goku/Vegeta and basically is shown just meditating 90% of the time. Really too bad. He has a cool design, VO, and unique move set. He could be a top character.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by supersaiyanZero » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:08 pm

Bansho64 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:35 pm
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
I do not deny the economic advantages that come with being white But it's not as black and white as you and Julie make it out to be, and nowhere near as simple.
It really goes far beyond economic advantages. So much that an entire discussion could probably be held around just how much it is. And these discussions have been made. For years. And years.

And it is literally EXACTLY as black and white as they say it is. To me, it just makes little sense to make a sentence saying that you "realize the advantages" and then follow it up with that. You say you don't deny it, but do you understand it?
It's not black and white. That's the dumbest thing I've heard - please tell me, is there a "white people fund" that us whites can access when we are economically disadvantaged? Does this mean every white person is economically advantaged at birth? If you believe this, you don't have any idea of what you're talking about.

Upwards of 40% of billionaires are white. That is true. But that is still less than 1% of the population. Do you think that concentration of wealth trickles down to all the poorer white people? Are you insane? Do you understand you're living in 2019? People insist that there is a racial bias amongst the police - and I'm very inclined to believe that to be true. But you can't just stop there. It's indicative of a much larger problem - people in poverty are more likely to commit crimes. When you're a police officer you will most likely notice that the majority of crimes are committed by minorities..people need to understand that this is their perspective when they're out there. This comes off as racist and/or biased but its the truth. Unfortunately, this kind of thinking can also play into racist attitudes..but people need to confront the truth.

They aren't thinking about why the poverty rate is so high among minorities, and neither is the left. We have a massive wealth concentration that the world has never seen before...to reduce it to just black and white is a terribly misinformed way to think about it.

Now, if you were to tell me that certain races were kept in poverty, keeping them disadvantaged...I'm much more likely to agree with you on the topic of being privileged. . But that still doesn't give you carte blanche to blame everything on the current buzzfeed definition of white privilege.

There are systematic advantages that need to be addressed but not in the way you immaturely address them. Minorities are statistically more prone to being born into poverty - that is a huge problem with various complexities that I don't think you understand. Which is sad, because how else do you solve them? Certainly not by playing victim mentality. Building stronger communities and holding each other responsible is a great start.

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Last edited by supersaiyanZero on Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by funrush » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:20 pm

How exactly would they even promote Piccolo as an asexual character besides just having someone mention it once or twice? I don't see how they could do this without hamfisting it in, since DB doesn't really talk about sexuality aside from Roshi gags.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Shaddy » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:06 am

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
That's ridiculous. I don't care if if you ask her in a dark room when nobody is listening that she will then admit there is "no inherent difference between races" if she parades around labeling every societal problem with the "white cishet man" stamp. That's like me going around calling people niggers and then privately confiding to someone that black people aren't all that bad. I just..I can't even wrap my head around that logic. Stop making excuses for narrow minded, bigoted thinking.
But that isn't really what's happening here. Remember, her first supposedly "bigoted" comment was about Nick Rekieta and the Vic defense squad attacking people without being held accountable for it. At no point does it say "they did it because they were white". It says they weren't held accountable because of that, and to some degree this is an exaggeration. But it's not outright false in a societal sense. Neither of these things blames people for their skin color.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
Do we have white privilege in mainland China? Korea? South America? Is the lack of white privilege there supported by your "undisputed facts"?
I never said "worldwide". But you, and me, and much of this forum, live in English-speaking, North American or West-European countries. I think you know better than to make this assumption.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
Also, society does not push white people to commit genocide. Genocide has been committed all over the world, white or not white. It's a dark, territorial human trait that has its roots deep in the animal kingdom. It is not exclusive to white men.
The point is that the problem of white supremacists is caused in large part by white men feeling emasculated by society, and modern fascist groups are able to exploit that in a big way. No amount of words is too big to be spared about how US culture, human nature, economic disparity and history contribute to this, but not directly specifying those isn't the same as pretending they aren't there.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
I do not deny the economic advantages that come with being white. But it's not as black and white as you and Julie make it out to be, and nowhere near as simple. We have a systematic class problem. The western world was built by whites, often on the backs of minorities. It makes sense to me then that subsequently those at the top of the class are probably white. That is a problem, yes. But this idea that if you're born white in America in the last 20 years you're automatically 20 steps ahead in life is so incredibly toxic and ignores the class warfare we have going on in this country.
It's more than economic, but more importantly, how's it ignored? Look how we talk about capitalism. Julie even used the words "class warfare" a few pages ago. The current system reinforces systemic issues and nobody with power has fixed it because they can profit off of it. That's definitely been covered, though maybe not in this thread specifically.

Nobody's saying white people necessarily have it easy. But the playing field is not equal. You're reading "these groups have problems to deal with for a reason beyond their control" as "your problems aren't real because you aren't these people", and that's not something any of us believe.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
There is little privilege in being white if you're born in rural Alabama where the majority of your neighbors live below the poverty line.
Alabama still has active KKK chapters. I'd call not having to deal with that a pretty big privilege.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
I am not playing the oppression olympics with you. If you want to encourage that line of thinking go ahead, I'm going to simply assume you're ignorant. If roles were reversed and I was living an a black dominated world that you describe, I would surely feel hostility towards "cishet black men". There is no doubt about that. But if I was going to go around blaming everything on the blacks, claiming that because me and my people have suffered more than they have and that gives me the right to point my finger and judge every single black person based on their skin color..I'd be no better. I'd be ignorant. I'd be giving voice to the same mentality that I'm supposedly fighting against and taking away from the voices that are constructively trying to build up their communities.
Again, I'm not that different from you but I'm not getting on anyone for saying "white people" instead of "privileged white people who abuse others knowing the things that allow them to do so without facing negative repercussions", because I've never been part of a reactionary group that attacks people for speaking out about sexual assault, which was the original point. If you aren't either, then you should have no perception that posts like this are actually aimed at you.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
This idea that there are evil white billionaires plotting against minorities in some underground bunker like some sort of maniacal disney villain is stupid.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
But that's a more complex problem than simply saying "white people own the world".
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
In terms of the "real world", there have been many horrible acts of violence and cruelty and can't just simply be boiled down to "those damn white billionaires". That's an incredibly narrow way of looking at things.
Nobody claimed this stuff is only perpetuated by simple bigotry. But SOME of it definitely is. There's no problem in trying to get rid of that. We're not going to run out of people to fight the evils of corporate greed just because we want to get rid of fascist groups first. You're not gonna conquer the bourgeoisie in a day, but you can get a guy kicked out of Starbucks for harassing people in a few minutes at most.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
And don't tell me for a second that hate isn't equal. While I can certainly acknowledge the collective frustration among minorities and take that into account, I am not going to placate anyone and tell them that yes, they have to right to label, judge, and criticize people off their skin color. That is a very slippery slope my friend.
I don't know where you're getting this stuff. Nobody is doing or saying the things you're going after here.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
I don't know where you live. I live in a very progressive metropolitan city. I have supported the left, marched with them, debated for them. I have noticed that the more the left embraced this "white people are evil and the cause of all problems" mentality, the further I have been pushed away and excluded. This is a first hand account. This is not conjecture. I am routinely silenced because of my skin color even though I support many of the same ideals the left has. If I disagree with something, it's simply because I am white. My neighbor, a very liberal mixed girl happens to be a very entitled brat. Our first encounter with her ended with her calling me a "white piece of shit" among other things. Any attempt to reason with her ends with "you're just a white fucking male, why don't you move" etc. You know how that makes me feel? Angry. Resentful. You know what happens with that? People tend to throw those feelings back. It's fucking toxic. Thankfully, I could care less but the idea that you can so openly say something like to someone and garner support and applause is fucking scary and a symptom of what could end up being a MUCH larger problem. Again, slippery slope. ( My roommates, who are also liberal and NOT white, actually couldn't believe her behavior)
How are those people "the left"? How do any of those isolated instances relate to leftism? Nobody said having good politics makes you a good person, or nobody can do things that go against those policies. I'm not here to justify the shit random people on the street told you, I was clarifying Julie's comment which was directed at something else.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
Again, boiling something like that down to simply a result of "white racism" is overly simplistic and ignorant of a complex problem. (There is a theme here...)
You're taking criticism of bigotry in a system that, yes, is in many ways sustained by bigotry, as a dismissal of other contributing factors, which is just flawed logic. Nobody's dismissing that stuff. Even if we lived in the ultimate neoliberal state, where whites, blacks, trans people, gay people, men and women all earned the same, had the same standard of living, and equal representation in media, the poor/rich divide would still be terrible and the left would still be fighting it. It's just not what we're talking about right now.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
I don't even want to get into feminism as that movement has been completely hijacked and is doing neither gender any favors.
That's just what the conservative outrage machine peddles. Feminism, progressive thought, it's the same it's ever been. The left has always "gone too far" when it comes to equality. People called suffrage for black people communism and MLK a socialist radical. Feminism was called man-hating fascism even before gamergate. It's never been true.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
I know what the principles of the left are. I largely agree with them on a fundamental level. I'm politically active in that regard, so when I tell you left wing extremists that are now the most vocal part of the party are going off the rails and hurting their own cause I fucking mean it.
Okay. How? What new left-wing policy has been proposed that's done crazy radical things that hurt anyone? Last I checked we were still on the "healthcare and worker's rights" stuff. We didn't solve those, we haven't moved on. What from the supposed toxic behavior you speak of can actually be traced to the left itself?
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:40 am
Some of the tactics are deplorable. We have shifted from fighting for equality to placing blame on a large group of people and demanding...something.
It has not, at any point, stopped being a fight for equality and equity. I still don't really see where you're getting the idea that it has. The civil rights act came about by saying that racism, and racists, are bad. LGBT rights, because, you guessed it, hatred of sexual and gender minorities is bad.

If you really think the left has become so bigoted, can you give an actual example from the left itself? And if do...to what end? Where does that idea even go? I can guarantee you that the roles will not, possibly cannot ever be reversed. If they can, it's not happening while either of us are alive, and it's not going to be stopped by flinging accusations of racism at people discussing privilege.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:08 pm
Upwards of 40% of billionaires are white. That is true. But that is still less than 1% of the population. Do you think that concentration of wealth trickles down to all the poorer white people? Are you insane? Do you understand you're living in 2019? People insist that there is a racial bias amongst the police - and I'm very inclined to believe that to be true. But you can't just stop there. It's indicative of a much larger problem - people in poverty are more likely to commit crimes. When you're a police officer you will most likely notice that the majority of crimes are committed by minorities..people need to understand that this is their perspective when they're out there. This comes off as racist and/or biased but its the truth. Unfortunately, this kind of thinking can also play into racist attitudes..but people need to confront the truth.
This is why I asked what you even think the left is. We've known this for years. Income inequality, corporate monopolization, this stuff hasn't gone anywhere. "Without wealth equality, there is no equality" and "billionaires shouldn't exist" are practically Bernie's catchphrases, and he's got the most widespread popularity in America. Why do you think lefties are stopping at 'racism' and just leaving it there? You keep saying Julie "blamed it all on white cishets", but she never mentioned "it all" in the first place, and she was blaming the behavior of a specific group of white cishet men on the privilege they were granted by society. That's not what racism looks like.

Also, if claiming certain minorities are arrested more because they're impoverished is okay, then it must absolutely be okay to say that privileged people are held accountable less.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:08 pm
They aren't thinking about why the poverty rate is so high among minorities, and neither is the left. We have a massive wealth concentration that the world has never seen before...to reduce it to just black and white is a terribly misinformed way to think about it.
Now, if you were to tell me that certain races were kept in poverty, keeping them disadvantaged...I'm much more likely to agree with you on the topic of being privileged.
What do you mean, "they're not thinking about this"? Look right here:
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:04 pm
It's class warfare. The wealthy trick white people in blaming their poor economic positions on undocumented residents and and minorities. The longer we're at each others throats the more time they have to run out the back door with all the money.
I don't get it. How is someone simultaneously a "extremist leftist gone too far" and also "blind from seeing that the rich are the problem"? One moment you're attacking the conservative strawman caricature of the left and the next you're basically calling others spineless neolibs.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:08 pm
But that still doesn't give you carte blanche to blame everything on the current buzzfeed definition of white privilege.[/b]
Where did anyone "blame everything" on any of this?
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:08 pm
There are systematic advantages that need to be addressed but not in the way you immaturely address them. Minorities are statistically more prone to being born into poverty - that is a huge problem with various complexities that I don't think you understand. Which is sad, because how else do you solve them? Certainly not by playing victim mentality.
Every progressive advancement in history has come from someone being victimized and them and others trying to end that victimization? Remember, Julie's initial comment that omegacwa chose for his dumb shit-stirring was about how, and I quote:
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:48 pm
Vic Mignogna's sycophantic leeches are a result of a justice system and societal issues that allows cishet white men to get away with treating women (and minorities of all sorts in broader contexts) like shit.
do you not see how this is different from "white people bad"?

Also 'stop playing the victim' is a weird thing to write on your third or fourth internet post claiming to be racially attacked.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:08 pm
And Julie, weren't you a white man just a little while ago? Did you suddenly lose all your "white privileges" ?
This is just needlessly antagonistic, alongside just being insensitive towards trans people. You ask for honest discussion, but then you do things like this. You shouldn't really be surprised when people respond poorly to it.
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