Note: the vast bulk of this post was written several weeks ago, but due to a vast, vast array of real life responsibilities, I wasn't able to properly finish and post it until today.
Alright, so full disclaimer of intent here
so that nobody
is under any
mistaken impressions about where it is I'm coming from here: I'm going to try and make some semi-productive use of some of my Cis White Male PrivilegeTM
here and take time and mental energy to wade into and navigate this minefield full stop.
The entirety of this post is going to be spent with me utterly eviscerating the holy living mother of fucking hell out of this specific post that was made several pages ago by one SuperSaiyanZero here in response to a few posts by Kendamu
and which I found to be particularly cringe-worthy, and in some instances almost downright ghoulishly horrible in its total total lack of regard for the stakes, severity, gravity, and basic critical, historic, and material understanding of the issues facing LGBTQ people.
Also important to note that I will be giving SuperSaiyanZero as much the full benefit of the doubt that he's engaging in purely good faith here, and isn't being purposefully disingenuous & malicious in his arguments. The fact that we even need
to make that distinction in the first place is a beyond sad indictment of internet discourse in itself, but such is the reality in which we're living in.
The reason that this matters and warrants such a thorough and dense breakdown is because SuperSaiyanZero (in just the one post I'm going to be dissecting here; I haven't even had much chance to look very closely at much of that which has followed it in the past couple of weeks) parrots a vast myriad of incredibly
dumb, ignorant, and in some cases, legit harmful nonsense and baseless/ridiculous assumptions regarding the LGBTQ community, particularly within the present day online nerd communal discourse.
And directly at a couple of trans women here no less, one of whom (Kendamu) happens to be someone who – in the interest of total disclosure here - has over the years grown to be a good personal friend of mine.
Rather than simply being relegated to the minutia of a 30 year old children's kung fu fantasy cartoon, the substance this entire post is pertaining to a type of thinking and overall mentality regarding something – that something being the broader perception of the LGBTQ community and their struggle for basic decency and for equal & just treatment throughout society - that has some vestige of actual tangible significance and that on some level has the power to actually affect/harm real people out in the real world.
I also want to make a personal note here directed specifically at SuperSaiyanZero himself (if he ever bothers to actually read this whole thing): yes, obviously I don't know you personally. Yes, you and I are perfect strangers on a stupid Dragon Ball forum. And yes, the “tone” of the language that I use to make my points is blunt, harsh, and uncompromising.
That being said, what I would like for you to do (if at all possible) is to take your personal pride and ego out of this discussion as much as humanly possible for just a little while, and try to think about this from a MUCH broader perspective that extends well outside of just your own personal purview. And understand that the reason why my tone and words are as harsh as they are, specifically within this context, is because this is a topic (regarding the broader view and treatment of LGBTQ people across media and in online spaces like this one) that is of GREAT significance and importance to millions upon millions of people out there, myself included.
I in no way want to sugarcoat both how deeply important this topic is in general as well as the immense layers of awfulness contained within your overall basic approach to it – that I can clearly see you aren't even aware of – and at the same time, what I would like very much to come of this post (again assuming you actually bother to read through it) is for you to hopefully have enough basic humility to maybe perhaps rethink your ENTIRE initial baseline set of assumptions and general framework regarding how and moreover why
LGBTQ individuals - such as Kendamu and Julie within this thread here – engage in these kinds of discussions in the first place.
We good with that? Ok. So with all the necessary caveats and preamble out of the way, we can now begin...
supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
Nobody is calling you
identity politics. Nobody is diminishing you
as a human being.
Your personal intent may not have been to do this, but there's a ton
of shit both throughout this post of yours - that I'm going to actually take time out of my day to try and unpack and dissect as best and as detailed as I can under the assumption that you are indeed a good faith actor here and are not actively trying
to be a dick just for the sake of it - as well as moreover within the current day context
of the term “Identity Politics” (and its use within *specifically* conversations like this one) that has that effect regardless of your personal intent, and sends that very message - the message that "your mere existence as a minority" is what's meant by "Identity Politics".
Because of a LOT of recent political context (that I'm going to infer that you simply are utterly unaware of, once more in the interest of assuming good faith in your positions here), the term has for maybe the past 6 or 7 years now become widely
recognized and understood (again, mainly within certain
specific contexts, such as namely discussions like this one about minority representation across media) as a dog whistle talking point masking itself under the guise of an intellectual argument to try and belittle any minorities who step out of line too much and "don't know their place".
The biggest problem I'm seeing from you throughout this thread is that you are blanket dismissing people who are much, MUCH more deeply involved in this stuff on a day to day/minute by minute basis than you self-evidently appear to be, and thus frankly know way
the hell more about it than you do.
supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
And it might be somewhat of a shock, but most people don't care
if you're trans, non-binary, queer, double-binary, or any other letter of the alphabet. I
So I've done a whole rash of posts on here recently about how people in Dragon Ball fandom have tended to do a lot of blind assuming and personal projecting based upon purely their own perspectives and personal experiences with various shit.
In those discussions & contexts it was regarding largely fandom-related nonsense that is hardly of anywhere NEAR as actual, tangible importance as something like the social plight of LGBTQ people. So rather than waste further time with the topic on that bullshit, we'll move it over instead to something of FAR greater and more pressing substance here.
Because what you're literally doing here in that above sentence is exactly
that: you are PURELY projecting what YOU personally think in your head onto others. i.e. "I personally don't care if someone is trans or non-binary or queer, ergo most other
people must not care either!"
The reality of course - as literally almost any
LGBTQ person will tell you (who maybe isn't stupidly well off financially at least: money has a way of insulating people from a lot
of the world's harshest realities) and have endless
hours upon hours upon hours upon hours upon hours of horrific, blood-curdling personal war stories regarding the topic to back it up - there is a LOT of "care" out there in the world regarding their mere existence and identity.
The day to day, lived-in reality of gay and trans people and the things they have to deal with day to day - both massively big and incredibly small - are nowhere remotely
near what you or I, or virtually anyone else in the straight/cis world, has to contend with.
For some context: one of my closest, dearest friends (for the better part of about 20 years now) is a trans-woman. She lives out in California these days. Now you might think "California's a pretty liberal, tolerant place, so she probably doesn't have to deal with nearly as much bullshit as she otherwise might, right?"
Even out in Cali, she deals with both verbal and physical harassment & abuse - from co-workers and from random people on the streets - almost literally every single
fucking day. No I didn't mis-type that nor am I using even the slightest hyperbole. Open, blatant transphobic harassment is an issue that plagues her day to day life almost literally every. Single. Day. Out in liberal-ass Southern California. Same goes for the other trans-folk that she's met and befriended while she's been out there.
Needless to say, you and I - as cis, straight, non-trans people - don't have to worry about this or experience this in our day to day lives. But when you're a trans person, people will out of fucking nowhere
come up to you and start shit with you. Often as a matter of disturbingly regular occurrence. Sometimes its purely verbal. They'll call you demeaning names or slurs, they'll go out of their way to disrespect you and ask you shitty, horribly inappropriate questions constantly about your hair, your breasts & genitalia, the way you're dressed, etc.
That's at the best
of times. Other times though, things will get physical. I can't count the number of instances just that I'm directly aware of
(god only knows how many more I'm not) of people walking up to trans people and spitting on them. Right out in the streets, out in the open. Just literally, physically spit in their face. This is way
more common than you'd think, even in so-called "Liberal Blue States".
Perfect strangers will get physically pushy and "handsy" with trans people at a moment's notice. Trans women in particular tend to have to be constantly
vigilant and prepared to physically defend themselves almost literally EVERY SINGLE DAY
at a moment's notice. Its exponentially
worse if, god help you, you're a trans person of color.
And I'm not simply going off of the experiences of the one friend in question: I've known and been close with trans people (mostly women, but a few men as well) both in my family and among friends growing up. Several of my family's closest friends were very
old-school trans women (going back to the 1960s, pre-Stonewall), others were cousins within my family (one of my cousins on my mom's side, which I'm VERY close to in general, is a trans male for example).
I've also been privileged to meet and befriend a lot more trans people over the years throughout my life as well. I've got literally endless
pages upon pages upon pages worth of personal horror stories about their common, day to day experiences that could genuinely provide the basis for a series of blood-curdling horror novels.
Everything from non-trans romantic partners (usually men) who've drawn guns on them upon discovering who they are, to police officers harassing, arresting, and beating them in the streets (before planting drugs on their person to give an after-the-fact excuse): hell, one of them - one of my mother and grandmother's closest friends incidentally - owned her own hair salon right near where I grew up: and the local police would constantly
raid the place and harass her purely
because she was an openly trans woman who owned her own business in the neighborhood.
My aforementioned male trans cousin has had knives held to him and suffered at least one pretty severe beating (that I'm even aware of: I've no doubt there've been more) by a few old boyfriends from before he transitioned upon finding out who he was.
But don't just take my (or their) anecdotal word for it, as statistics and national studies bear these realities out to a LARGE degree
(and WELL further beyond frankly
Some highlights (or lowlights rather):
- Transgender people on average are nearly two times
as likely to experience direct threats, intimidation, and physical assault (sexual and otherwise) than CIS gendered people. Much more if they're transgender people of color.
- Transgender women are nearly four and a half times more likely to be victims of homicide than cis-gendered women.
- More than 56% of transgender people who've gone to the police to report a hate crime (including serious violence, assault, and attempted murder) have faced negligence of their claims and outright abuse and mistreatment from the police. Studies have found that this is a direct causal factor in a great, great deal of transgender crimes going unreported or under-reported.
Meaning while the current statistical analysis we have on hand of transgender violence rates in general is far
from complete, a cross-check of various trans violence and hate crime studies conducted throughout the years heavily indicates that the actual
numbers and rates of violence against trans people is likely much, much, MUCH higher than the reports we currently have to go on.
- So-called "Trans Panic" is a VERY common motivation for transgender murders across numerous decades. A variation on "Gay Panic" (which is effectively the exact same concept, only applied to gay people), its when trans people are assaulted - and often killed - by a romantic/sexual partner upon the partner's discovery of their trans identity. Its so
commonplace that it is actually recognized as a legitimate legal defense
for people charged with murdering a transgender individual. That legal tactic is only NOW in very
recent years *slowly* being rolled back, but in the U.S. its STILL a valid legal defense in at least 43 states
More reading on this insane concept (which has a dense
history in itself) can be found here
, and here
I can go on and on and on and on here for page after page after endless page, but I hope that gets across at least a general glimpse
of the much wider, prevailing problem here.
The point of me delving into all of that is... while *you* may not personally care that someone you're talking to happens to be transgender, there's a lot more
people out there in the broader world around you who care a great
deal whether or not someone happens to be transgender, and *not* in a healthy or positive way. As it happens, there is indeed a FUCKLOAD of caring going on out in the real world regarding the existence of trans people as a part of society at large, and again its not the good kind of caring.
I also go into all of this due to - with all due respect, *ludicrously* naive (to out-and-out childlike degrees), cringingly oblivious, and laughably absurd - statements you make like this utter gem right here:
supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
I think it's also because this is probably the most tolerant time in human history.
My dude... take a gander at some annual hate crime reports some time for just a mere glimpse at the soul-crushing reality: according to most studies (including notably those from the FBI's annual crime reports
) hate crimes have been *sharply* increasing over just the past 5 or 6 years now.
2017 was found to be one of the single deadliest years for transgender murders on record
(with 2016 and 2015 not far behind it
Furthermore, in the just the past 4 years alone, activity and membership in anti-minority and white supremacist hate groups has jumped more than 30%, reaching a 20 year record high.
And they've been escalating in not only targeting the usual black/brown/Jewish groups, but also gay and transgenders as well.
The point that I'm getting at here is - and I say this as clinically, dispassionately, and matter of factly as a simple statement of demonstrable reality with regards to your stated views on these issues - you have indicated quite beyond clearly throughout much of what you've been saying in this thread here that you simply do not have the *slightest*, FOGGIEST fucking idea what the hell you're talking about on the topic of transgender people.
On even a broad
basis, which I'll get to more of in a sec).
And maybe, just maaaaaaaaaybe that
abject baseline cluelessness might play far
more into the reason for why trans women on this forum like Kendamu and Julie might be coming down so harshly on you and the (pretty blatantly and obviously) dumbass, naive-as-all-hell bullshit that's coming out of your mouth, rather than your purported rationale that they're being "unreasonable", "irrational", or that they're "trying to push some insidious 'agenda' upon you" (more on the asinine "agenda" nonsense momentarily).
When minority groups talk so much about "privilege", they aren't
just making up a nonsensical buzzword to use to senselessly beat cis-gendered White Hetero Men like you or I over the head with it: the phrase exists *precisely* to describe situations like when painfully oblivious cis/Hetero people say to them with a straight fucking face in 2019 (or hell, in pretty much damn near ANY given decade in either recent or distant history) some Golly Gee Willickers/1950s Ozzie & Harriet-level shit like "Most people don't care whether or not you're transgender" and "This is the most tolerant time in human history".
many would quite rightly respond: try telling that to the countless SCORES of trans people year in and year out who suffer constant, near-daily harassment, assault, and sexual abuse - and in many cases, can't even go to the fucking police because in more than half of most cases (that we even KNOW of on record) the cops
will simply just join in on the abuse themselves rather than actually help them or take their case seriously) to say nothing of the families of those who've been stone cold murdered
over their being trans.
To YOU it might not register innately or reflexively as all that big of a deal because YOU don't have to deal with these horrors and YOU don't personally know anyone else who HAS (one can assume, based on such statements you've made here) - or the very tangible and real threat
of them, and all the palpable stress that comes with it: and it comes with a LOT of fucking very real and very daunting stress for most trans people, often on an hourly/minute-by-minute basis, never mind daily.
But to actual trans people (like the ones here in this thread that you're belittling and talking down to in that above post like an unbelievably arrogant prick) who *do* have to deal with it, you sound to them (and to anyone else who's actually better plugged into reality about this stuff) like a complete and absolute fucking world-class douchebag and you should in no way
be surprised when they straight up tell you as much to your face.
Its one thing when a person is wrong or misguided about something. Its far, far
worse when they're wrong and misguided about something that has actual life-and-death stakes to the lives of a large subset of people across the globe. And its utterly insufferable and infuriating
when they're wrong or misguided on something that's a matter of literal life-and-death to so many people, AND they act incredibly smug and pompously self-assured in their bullheaded ignorance on top.
The problem with you throughout this entire thread SuperSaiyanZero, is that you're presenting yourself here as the latter-most of those. To no less than a couple of people who have far, *far* infinitely more firsthand experience and insight into this shit than either you (or I for that matter) ever, EVER will or could.
supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
What I do care about, is injecting identity politics (or any political agenda, for that matter) in a kung fu cartoon. I care because A) It's something I've grown up with and have an emotional attachment to the 30+ years of source material and more importantly because B) on principle I cannot in any way shape or form ever think that retconning previous works simply to pander to a political ideology is ever
Alright, so the "agenda" thing now.
do me a HUGE solid here: if or when you ever even eventually read or respond to any of this, outline for me what directly the atomic powered fuck "agenda" are we exactly talking about here? And please be specific!
Be detailed! No vagueness!
An “agenda”, in contexts like this one at least, usually (though granted, not always) denotes some sneaky, insidious, devious scheme to attain *some* tangible goal, political or otherwise. Something or some way of "getting one over" on the rest of us schmucks.
So please, for the love of god tell me: when LGBTQ people are somehow "pushing for an agenda" through their wanting for equal/fair representation in silly nerd media (be it Dragon Ball or whatever the fuck else), what EXACTLY
does that agenda consist of? And why
exactly its SO terrible and SO harmful to us that the rest of us need to be SO outraged and offended by it?
What is it exactly that you think they want ultimately that is SO unfair or is too much or a bridge too far for them to ask?
And again, if/when you answer this: please remember: BE SPECIFIC!
No vagueness or just throwing out stock buzzwords that masquerade themselves as a cogent argument. Walk us through the logic of the problem here with this “agenda” step by step: what do LGBTQ people seek to gain materially from this insidious “agenda”, and why is it such a negative, horrible thing, and how it will or could potentially negatively impact the rest of us (in a way that like, actually is genuinely serious or hazardous)?
In the meanwhile though, here's my
answer to this question: as far as I can tell and as far as I've ever
seen or heard or read from any
LGBTQ person (or really, any
oppressed or marginalized minority group) throughout aaaaaaaaaalll these great many years now... what I'm about to say here is really the ONLY thing they ultimately want at the end of the day when they talk about how they're represented in media. Ready for it?
What they want is fair/accurate representation of themselves reflected across media without constantly resorting to negative stereotypes. That's it. That's quite literally the beginning and the end of it.
They simply want the mass media and art that we all consume collectively to reflect a simple, fundamental, and impossible to ignore reality about their very core being in this world: that they exist among the rest of us within society and NOT apart from it as an "other", that they're a normal and everyday part of the world we live in, and they have every right
to be both acknowledged and treated as every bit as normal and nuanced (not to mention fucking increasingly commonplace
: they're not exactly hiding themselves out underground these days) in their media depictions as any
non-trans, non-binary, or generally non-LGBTQ person generally and typically is.
They want for cis and non-binary people to NOT be treated by default as "the baseline" or "the default". Because they/we AREN'T the fucking "baseline" or "default" of jack fucking shit, and none of us
who live on this planet are.
This right here is the core of what it means when people say that "identity politics" within the context of "minority representation in media" is often used as dog whistle for "don't acknowledge that LGBTQ people exist". They not only exist, but they are a normal, every day part of the world we live in, they ALWAYS HAVE been, and its only been due to acceptance
of them (acceptance that has been helped along in no small part by increased and further widespread representation and visibility across mass, mainstream media) that we've gotten to a point where more and more people have seen just how fucking MANY of them there actually are and *have been* among us all along, and that there is absolutely nothing
the least bit threatening, harmful, insidious, or abnormal about their existence among us.
Like imagine this for a second: imagine if, for whatever reason, most of mass media completely
ignored the existence of... fuck, I dunno, trees. Lets say that for whatever idiotic reason, we lived in an alternate reality where trees were somehow seen as "socially taboo" to depict or acknowledge within mass mainstream media.
And if on rare occasions a given work was
to include a depiction of tress within mass media, that work cannot dare
to be targeted at kids, it must come with a slew of warning labels ("WARNING: This Film Contains Graphic Depictions of Tree and Other Upsetting Plant-Life: Not Suitable for Anyone Under 18+, Viewer Discretion is Strongly Advised"), and furthermore the people depicting trees will often know so
little about trees (in no small part because we've spent so much time constantly avoiding
discussing, acknowledging, or talking about them, up to/including/and beyond in our art and media) that oftentimes they can't even be bothered to get the basic depiction of them accurately and will often depict them as far more odd and weird-seeming than they really are.
attempt that a given work makes to depict the world as being in fact chock full of trees (as it actually indeed is in reality all around us), that depicts them quite accurately and in detail as they really are, and that furthermore dares to aim such a work at the mass public (kids included), then it stands to face considerable
backlash and outrage, up to and including the claim that any such work that dares to show that trees are commonplace and "normal" are works that are being innately "divisive", "political" and having some insidious "pro-tree agenda".
Now replace the word "tree" throughout all of the past few paragraphs there with "LGBTQ people" (and for that matter, black, Latino, Indian, Arabic, or otherwise decidedly brown/dark skinned people), and please explain to me in all the detail and nuance that you care to how exactly the latter is ANY less ridiculous, moronic, or asinine than the former within those paragraphs?
That's really what this whole
fucking absurd, dumbfuck, spectacularly deranged, and utterly batshit "debate" regarding "LGBTQ people forcing Identity Politics into mass media to promote an AgendaTM
that no one can *ever* be bothered to actually outline or clearly define on even a basic-ass level" ultimately boils itself down to. They're literally telling
you in no uncertain terms exactly
what it is that they want via fair media representation, and every time this "Pushing a Political Agenda" bullshit comes up, it reads to rational, sane people as "Yes yes, but what are you REALLY
trying to do here?
There's literally nothing
the least bit "hidden" or "insidious" or "agenda-ish" about what it is they're ultimately trying to accomplish here. Really just listen to them, really listen
to what it is they're telling you about what they're going through and what it is they want, and take what it is they're telling you at face fucking value without devolving into unhinged conspiratorial nonsense. They have literally NOTHING to "get one over" on anyone else with this stuff.
supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pmI've never diminished your personal existence. There is not one iota of evidence to support that. This is a bullshit, manipulative way to play a victim of some sort of injustice and therefore invalidate anything I have or will say.
First of all: you've literally talked directly past
what it was that Kendamu was trying
to explain to you in very clear and direct terms, and you've warped and jiu jitsu-ed it in your mind into it somehow being a "rhetorical tactic" on her end to turn your words back on you and “paint herself as the victim”, when in reality she was simply just very
clearly explaining to you why the whole "Identity Politics" talking point - again specifically within contexts like this conversation right here regarding fair representation of minorities like LGBTQ people in media - is typically used as a means of "shutting down" any movement or progress toward getting these people fairly and widely represented in media the same as anyone else.
Remember my "tree" analogy from before? Think for a moment about what it is that you're telling an LGBTQ person almost any and every single time
they say "Hey, we think that media, even kids' media, should maybe more broadly represent us, seeing as how we kind of exist here on this planet and all" and the response they get is almost unanimously “IDENTITY POLITICS BAD!! YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO PUSH AN AGENDA ON US!!!
Think outside of
just yourself and your own perspective here for at least two fucking seconds. Think for a moment about the overall net effect
of it on a MUCH broader basis when so many
other cis/hetero people throughout aaaaaaaaaaaall
these various fan communities (including yourself on top of the pile) keep routinely responding to ANY FAINT HINT
of minority representation in media in such a way.
I mean, for decades
now, many of us didn't have almost any
problems at all whatsoever with black or brown people being depicted regularly and nonchalantly in mass, mainstream kids' media: so why should LGBTQ people be any
Anytime you respond to this kind of question with "That's identity politics and you're pushing an agenda!" you are, in point of fact and *by default*, calling these people's VERY IDENTITY AND EXISTENCE out as being innately and inherently "political" and "agenda-driven" in nature.
And yeah, they have an agenda: to be seen and recognized and depicted in mass media as regular-ass fucking everyday people without any bullshit "taboos" placed on them for no good goddamn reason.
Every single time that you, or most anyone else in these kinds of discussions, keeps shutting down ANY remote nudge toward broader representation of LGBTQ (and other minority groups) across mass media by decrying it as “Agenda-driven Identity Politics”, you are, as a matter of natural course and regardless of your genuine intentions
, arguing against
their "normalization" and "integration" within the wider world through the conduit of mass media.
You are pushing against
social progress on that front. By saying that you "Don't want politics to invade your cherished childhood media" (as you are here) any time that the issue of LGBTQ (and whatever other minority group) being fairly represented in a work of media comes up, you are A) calling the mere acknowledgement
of these people's existence across broader media to be both "political" and thus "taboo" in some way, and B) you are yourself making a goddamn political statement whether you realize it or intend to or not!
Then there's also THIS terrible layer to that earlier quote (that I don't doubt for a moment you genuinely didn't think deeper on the ramifications of before regurgitating it out into the digital ether here):
supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
This is a bullshit, manipulative way to play a victim of some sort of injustice and therefore invalidate anything I have or will say.
My dude... scroll back up a bit and take another gander at some of those stats, and take another listen to most of the experiences that transgender people are telling us all about what they're being put through as a community every motherfucking day.
Do you seriously
think - in the petty, insulated, myopic thread of logic that you're going by here – that most
trans folk have ANY remote
interest or desire in “making themselves into a victim” needlessly and frivolously over such minor petty grievances?
Look over all
of those studies I linked to before (and *plenty* more besides just those), listen to all
the stories and experiences that they're relating to us constantly for a fucking moment and put yourself squarely in their
shoes for just a minute:
If you're very identity as a human being on this planet is such that it makes constant
enemies out of not just close family and friends and lovers, but also out of a sizable portion of random-ass total strangers out in the world – a good potion of whom are deranged and unhinged enough to commit actual physical and lethal violence upon them JUST FOR EXISTNING – to the point where their day to day, minute by minute existence is a perpetual struggle to maintain their sanity, inner-strength, and emotional/psychological stability...
, in that context, feel even the most remote
fucking desire to want to jump through a bunch of absurd, ludicrously stupid rhetorical hoops and word-games in your day to day interactions with others solely in order to pointlessly and needlessly make yourself into a VICTIM?!
Do you honestly believe that most LGBTQ people (including ones who engage in “nerd media” discourse online) are that
petty and childish in their worldview? Is your own day to day existence so utterly shallow, so blissfully worry and problem-free that you can seriously think to yourself “Yeah, if I were trans, *that's* certainly how I'd
be spending my time!”
Did you seriously think through any
of this excruciatingly vapid nonsense you've spouted here for even so much as a nanosecond
, or was whatever dipshit Redditor or Youtube neckbeard talking head you originally heard this kind of “Radical Far Left Identity Politics is ruining our cherished nerd media!” crap from online initially just THAT magnetically compelling and charismatic that you thought “Yeah! They're just trying to play the victims!
That's GOTTA BE IT!” and ran with it from there?
I'm genuinely sorry to make this so acid-edged: I may not know you personally, but I damn well know the kind of mentality that you are operating from and the talking points that you are espousing. And they are simply, in and of themselves, malignantly stupid and gross down to their very baseline framework. In no small part because they drastically misdiagnose the level of stakes
that are at play here in terms of what the LGBTQ community (both as a broader whole, and in a great many cases down to a ton of individual voices within it) both has been facing for countless decades now, and are still continuing
to face right now today.
Getting back around to the main point, and this is crucially
important here: while the term Identity Politics is indeed very
old and has gone through a whole *ton* of different contextual meanings throughout the decades over time, within the current
political climate we've been in for much of the last maybe seven or so now: "Identity Politics" within conversations dealing with minority representation and the like (both in media and more broadly in general) - indeed when used as the specific talking point you're using it as right now
– it has absolutely
established as a Right Wing Reactionary Dog Whistle talking point in recent years. Its absolutely
at this present stage within the same wheelhouse (again at this political moment in time and within contexts like this one) as "taking the Red Pill", "Globalism", "Cultural Marxist", etc.
You yourself may be (and clearly are) completely
unaware of this fact and of this term's widespread (and incredibly
unsubtle and not-at-all obscured) political use within recent years all throughout online discourse (generally by far right reactionaries and their assorted ilk): but I'm suddenly reminded of some catchphrase or other about "facts not caring about your feelings" or some such...
There's a whole fucking encyclopedically dense-ass nomenclature that the online reactionary movement (the alt right, the Red Pills, MRAs, etc) in the last decade or so have developed for themselves. The whole "The Radical Left are trying to push their shady Agenda with Identity Politics" meme (that seems to generally mainly ever come up any time that a brown skinned or LGBTQ person or a woman character in some recent piece of media is ever given ANY kind of prominent role that doesn't lean on tired, stock stereotypes) is a *completely* nonsensical talking point that was in large part wholly invented
by this movement.
It is, in every sense of the term, a conspiracy theory
, and a blatantly idiotic and ahistorical one at that. It is absolutely, factually, and unmistakably
used as a dog whistle for "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" when it comes to giving any
sort of serious, critical attention to issues or topics pertaining to social treatment of minorities or social equity. Particularly in discussions about mainstream media depictions/visibility/representation, but also even in other various contexts as well.
supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
You may, in your infinite ignorance, have branded the term identity politics as an assault on your existence. You might want to educate yourself in that regard.
I don't want to keep taking this to the realm of the personal (and I'll be steering this back to the broader issue shortly), but I simply could not
let this one go.
You just cited Kendamu (who's a pretty sharp lady I might add) as a font of "infinite ignorance" while yourself are right here and now demonstrating not just boundless
fucking ignorance throughout this whole diatribe regarding trans people, but also not even understanding WHY it is that the term "Identity Politics" - again, when used as a talking point within this specific context - is itself a (once again, very
widely recognized now) right wing dog whistle talking point that is fundamentally intended to undermine the very existence and agency of these various minority groups (and their various issues) seeking merely fair/equal representation across media.
Evergreen image right here:
Also, and not to be petty and make this about me and my dumb bullshit, but - since this once again just came up earlier this month when I last posted here - to people here (MetaMoss, BigBoy, PhoenixEX, et al) who think that my posts talking about dumb nonsense like anime and Dragon Ball fandom history are somehow purposefully condescending or belittling or whatnot to the other people within those various threads:
supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pmYou may, in your infinite ignorance
, have branded the term identity politics as an assault on your existence. You might want to educate yourself in that regard.
Take note of that guys. Context: a Cis/Hetero dude - who's maybe only a notch or two removed from "We totally
solved racism/bigotry guys!" in his rhetoric and stated worldviews - calling a trans woman "infinitely ignorant" because HE somehow knows better than HER how to spot an over-abused bigoted dog whistle term (while not actually in any way remotely knowing the broader and more recent context behind the term). And topping it all off by telling her "you might want to educate yourself".
guys, is what a condescending/snotty/belittling post actually
looks like (not to mention a textbook defining example of what "mansplaining" actually looks like in action out in the wild).
I mean come on man: do you honestly, sincerely not see or realize how this entire
portion of your post reads to almost *anyone/everyone* else as:
"No no, please trans ladies, allow ME, random cis-hetero chucklefuck on a Dragon Ball forum spouting /pol/-approved talking points about 'Forced Diversity' and 'Identity Politics (that may as well come complete with Jordan Peterson's Kermit voice), to educate and school you wild-eyed hysterics on what 'oppression', 'bigotry', and 'dog whistle' terms ACTUALLY are!"
It is in NO way unfair to point out that to a large swath of both LGBTQ people and people who in general have a fairly firm grasp on the realities they face, that this whole segment of your post comes across at best
as a comically, over the top stereotypical example of a “cluelessly naive cis/white male who thinks that we've basically already along ago defeated the worst of prejudice and bigotry”, and at worst as the written-language personification of a fedora being tipped.
supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
Me and many others are tired of certain groups forming their own off-brand political brand based on whatever identity they choose to be that day, and (speaking broadly here) claiming that because the status quo is oppressing them they have a right to reshape the world in their image no questions asked. And anybody who doesn't agree is a homophobic alt right nazi slave owner bigot.
Oh god, where do I even begin
to break this one down. Lets start with:
"Many others" also including (but are in no way limited to), wait for it... alt-right online hate/Nazi groups. Of the kind who went and made
a previously totally benign & established term/concept like "Identity Politics" into a fucking dog whistle talking point (in more recent years at least) in the first place.
And no, obviously not everyone
who buys into this nonsense (including, quite obviously, you yourself) are alt-right online Neo-Nazis. *Obviously* not. The way that far right wing dog whistle terms & talking points have historically always
proliferated has been their being originated and developed among either extremist hate groups or far right political think tank organizations, before being disseminated out into the broader media wilds and "normalized" via being parroted mindlessly by cluelessly oblivious folks until they basically turn into stubbornly-clung-to thought-viruses that get people arguing in circles among themselves endlessly (rather than realizing that the VAST majority of us have FAR more in the way of common goals and interests, and actually taking active action to achieve them and get anywhere solving shit).
Examples of more “traditional” (i.e. old school, pre-alt right and Red Pill/GamerGate-era) dog whistle terms include, but are in no way
- States Rights
- i.e. "Give us the ability to have our Southern Conservative Stronghold states worm their way out of Federal Anti-Discrimination and Civil Rights Laws (including once-upon a time, anti-slavery laws), as well as Roe v Wade/Abortion-related legislation, and any other Federal Court rulings that we think happen to give too much equitable & fair treatment under the law to minority groups that we personally don't like or approve of."
- Freedom of Religion
– i.e. “Give us a go-to loophole of an out to discriminate against and demean LGBTQ people (and at one time formerly, black people & interracial marriage) as we please, using religion as the convenient fig-leaf of choice.”
- Family Values
– i.e. “Fuck only who we want you to fuck, and only fuck them in the exact specific manner that we want you to fuck them.”
- “The Jews secretly control the world!”
- Welfare Queens
- “Black and brown people are inherently lazy and worthless, so cut off any and all Federal funding to anti-poverty programs that might make poor black & brown people even marginally
less poor. And if it happens to also do similar such harm to poor white people as well, then so be it: cut off your own nose to spite your face!”
– “Fuck poor people in general. Homeless? Your own fault! Get a job!”
- Immigration Reform
- “Purge the country of any and all brown people, particularly Latinos and Muslims (and possibly South Africans).”
- Thug Culture
- “Black men (particularly the younger ones) are innately savage, violent, and predatory, and are just waiting and itching to kill off all of us Good, Hard Working White Men before raping our White Wives and our pure, virginal White Daughters.”
- Anti-White/White Genocide
- “Black & brown people are gonna out-fuck White people out of existence! Whites are under attack and are an endangered species!” This one's barely even a dog whistle.
And so on and so forth.
I can only hope
that you have enough baseline historical understanding and political awareness to recognize at least some
of those above terms for exactly what they are (and have long
been outted/discredited as being in very open and public fashion).
Because yes, once again I am 1000% asserting as stone cold fucking fact that “Identity Politics” (once again, within *this* specific context within just a few years short of maybe the past decade or so now) has in recent years joined the very same ranks as those above outlined more old-school classical right wing dog whistle terms within the more modern day “alt right”-hewing political lexicon.
This is not at all
obscure trivia that I'm citing here: the framework that you're operating from here is one of immense
ignorance to not only basic day to day, lived-in realities of most of the LGBTQ community, but also to recent trends in political discourse as well as the broader, more critically important discussion surrounding these terms outside of internet nerd community-related nonsense.
That you seem to be genuinely unaware of this only serves to highlight and make all the more egregious the condescending and intelligence-insulting language you've against both Kendamu and Julie within this thread.
supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
Me and many others are tired of certain groups forming their own off-brand political brand based on whatever identity they choose to be that day
, and (speaking broadly here) claiming that because the status quo is oppressing them they have a right to reshape the world in their image no questions asked.
Please, PLEASE don't tell me that you're trying to genuinely and sincerely claim that non-binary gender identities for most people are somehow some “new” thing that a bunch of people online suddenly started making up out of fucking wholecloth on a whim just
to draw attention to themselves or “be different” or “play the victim” or whatnot.
You are not busting out that
fucking chestnut – that much of this is all just a bunch of dumb, silly kids trying on and discarding new gender identities like they're different outfits, as opposed to making critically
important decisions that most of them know damn well will have the gravest and most seismic of impact on the rest of their lives - sincerely and unironically, are you?
My dude... take another goddamn look at the transgender violence stats I linked to up top. Do you genuinely, and honestly think that any
sane, reasonably intelligent, and lucid fucking person would willingly and publicly take on a non-binary gender identity – and with it, have to face the incalculable
number of dangers, serious risks to their lives & physical safety, and not to mention the day to day public shame and bullying - PURELY on a series of fickle, frivolous whims?
Do you actually think there's more than maybe (maybe
) the smallest sliver
of the overall transgender/broader LGBTQ community who treat this as anything the least bit
less than one of the biggest risks to their lives and safety that they'll have to deal with for likely the rest
of their goddamn lives, to say nothing of the enormous
ripples it'll cause among their *entire* family and social circle?
Dude... if I'm not misreading you here (and if I'm indeed even slightly
misreading you here, then up front I extend immense
apologies for saying this), then what this shows me is that you haven't put even the barest minimum
amount of serious, critical thought into any
of this, into any
of the bullshit that you're spewing (about an incredibly
important topic that literally impacts the lives of literally *millions* of individuals in just North America alone
) and that you have an IMPOSSIBLY naive, myopic, and cluelessly sheltered-ass motherfucking outlook and view of the real world.
Some legitimate and actual credit where due is on the horizon though!
(Continued in Part 2)