Again: fucking NO ONE ever said that that's what trans people are doing. Least of all, most trans people themselves. Because once again: literally NOTHING that trans people have been saying about gender identity, gender fluidity, gender dysphoria, or gender as a social construct throughout ALL these many years now, has EVER at ANY point in time had the SLIGHTEST bit to do with biological sex from birth.
95% of most trans people (and I'm sure I'm lowballing that percentage) are MORE than well acutely aware of what their biological sex from birth is/was. That has NEVER been in question or contested by them, by most doctors, psychologists, clinical experts on the subject, or virtually almost anyone that comes to mind.
What trans people have ALWAYS been talking about from moment fucking one is gender identity, which is, once again for the cheap seats and according to basic English language dictionary definitions, NOT AT ALL THE SAME FUCKING THING as biological sex from birth (regardless of whatever surgical modifications trans people end up making to their physical sex organs, almost no trans person is going to outright deny the basic reality of what genitalia they were originally, physically born with initially: that's largely a totally made up strawman).
No trans people or pro-trans allies are making that conflation.
It is largely if not solely the fucking slow-ass Redpilled goobers and pol/reddit troglodytes on the internet who are stubbornly continuing to confuse and conflate this shit, despite all readily and amply available literature and evidence to the fucking contrary: because god forbid any fedora-clad neckbearded fuckwit on the internet puts down the Shonen manga or Marvel/DC comics for two seconds and instead pick up and actually read through a real fucking textbook on something that actually matters (and that wasn't authored by Jordan Peterson) in their lives. Even if its a goddamned dictionary.
Reducing the struggles of most average trans-folk down to “Call me by my proper pronoun, or you're a Nazi!” is a grotesque – not to mention obnoxiously tired as all fuck – strawman: one that's parroted largely by ignorant young cis/hetero dudes on internet forums like this one. Again: some jackass hyper-zealous tumblr comment or something you might've seen from some blue haired college girl in an “SJW Cringe” compilation on Youtube is IN NO WAY reflective the actual, broader day to day lived-in realities of what LGBTQ people both are now and have always been struggling against socially.supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 amI think they are undertaking the most basic and arguably greatest quest any human has the privilege of undertaking: discovering who they are and creating that reality for themselves. If you want to call yourself Xir, that's fine - but to get offended when someone does not is fucking ludicrous for such a number of reasons.
If you genuinely and sincerely believe in your heart of hearts that the single worst or most angering thing that most average LGBTQ people have to endure daily is random people mistakenly calling them by the wrong pronoun, or that those who simply just give off that vague impression to you are somehow in ANY which way a moral or ethical equivalent to actual bigots or actual fucking hate groups dedicated to silencing, shaming, and in some cases outright BEATING and MURDERING them in the streets...
...then go back and look over once again all the myriad of analysis, statistics, and studies I've been linking you to throughout this fucking post regarding what LGBTQ people have to worry about and deal with in the real world. Better yet, go read an actual, full on book or three about the subject (I'll even be a sport and link you directly to a whole bunch at the end of all this), or even better still, maybe try to go out of your way to actually befriend and talk to a whole, whole lot more trans people out there in the world.
If after all that you don't feel even so much as one LICK of genuine shame and humility for some of the shit-ass stereotypes you've been brainlessly spewing in this thread, then I'm just at a complete and utter loss as to what else I can possibly tell you at that point.
Once more highlighting the hilarious absurdity of the bolded statement regarding this being “the most tolerant time in human history”, given the actual statistical and on-the-ground reality of what's going on out there presently for both the LGBTQ community and people of color right here and now.supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 amI think it's an interesting development of the human condition that raises more questions than answers. I think it's also because this is probably the most tolerant time in human history. I like to romanticize that these people are able to look at human individuals and fall in love with them beyond their biological state. It is revolutionary, at least in my eyes.
But setting that aside: contrary to how you feel that people like yourself are often characterized, what I've gathered from this whole post in its totality isn't that you're some horrible Nazi-esque bigot deep, deep down in your heart of hearts. I mean, I think that's at least more than fairly obvious enough. So lets not anyone here reading this walk away taking THAT as my conclusion and assertion about you from all this: least of all, you yourself (assuming you've managed to even read this far into this).
What I AM taking from this however is that you are, with all due respect, unbelievably, grotesquely naive and lacking in basic, critical understanding of the broader problems, social ills, and complex dynamics that LGBTQ people have long been facing in this country since generations upon generations upon generations past. And its from within that naivety, ignorance, and gross reduction of the immense stakes that are at play for them which springs much of the incredibly callous, thoughtlessly hurtful, and dismissive things you've been saying here regarding the day to day concerns and struggles of the LGBTQ community, rather than outright hate and malice.
But regardless of your deeper intent, the outward effect of your words and how they impact LGBTQ people reading the shit you're saying is ultimately still more or less just the same and just as hurtfully belittling as if it were coming from a place of genuine hate and malice. Which is all the more reason why greater knowledge, education, insight, information, critical thinking skills, a basic grasp of history, and understanding the perspectives of people who aren't like you are absolutely CRITICAL attributes to strive for and promote on a societal level.
If there's anything the least bit insidious and sinister in that kind of “political agenda”, then I'd sure as hell would love to know what the fuck that is: because that's the only “agenda” that any solidly left-leaning person I've ever known throughout my lifetime has ever been fighting for.
And of course I'd also be remiss if I didn't point this out: there is nothing the least bit “revolutionary” about a person simply *being* gay or *being* trans, given how incredibly old (if not outright ancient) these sexual orientations/identities are and have *always* been throughout human history. For as long as there's been some form of recorded history (and probably way longer) people of the same sex have been romantically & sexually attracted to one another (and acting upon it), and people have played fast and loose in a myriad of ways with their own gender identity. Its always been a part of humanity and human nature from the beginning of our history as a species.
What's truly revolutionary ISN'T these people existing among us, as they ALWAYS have.
What's truly marvelous here rather is that people who *aren't* gay, who *aren't* transgender, who are cis-hetero normative are FINALLY - on something that's starting to halfway resemble a wider-spread level - starting to get the fuck over themselves, pull their collective heads out of their asses, and getting the fuck over their ridiculous, moronic psychological hangups and personal insecurities and pointless neuroses regarding such people existing and living within close proximity to them (in however greater numbers) for the first time in roughly the past few hundred years or so (LGBTQ tolerance is something that has actually historically waxed and waned across millennia).
And what's literally the *definition of revolutionary* is how more and more LGBTQ people are finally starting to move more and more out in the open and live as who they are publicly and without shame, and are less and less living their lives “in the closet” and suppressing themselves “underground” as if there's something the least bit in any way wrong with them (when of course there isn't, and never was).
Acting like all these various sexual orientations and gender identities are somehow these fairly new and recent novelties and fads that people are only just now at this present time in history discovering or are just now inventing from wholecloth somehow (as you have strongly alluded to several times throughout this post), betrays and unbelievably narrow and shallow worldview regarding the historical realities and flexible malleability of human sexuality as its ALWAYS been from effectively day one in human history (and there's LEGIONS of academic research and literature on that subject, which I'll be linking to at the end of all this).
The thing that *has been* genuinely revolutionary regarding these various forms of non-hetero normative human sexuality (and its its *incredibly* key and important) is that LGBTQ people have been actually saying “enough's enough” and are no longer hiding themselves in shame, but instead are standing up more and more brazenly and with ever more swelling pride (hence the whole “gay pride” thing) to the pointless, primitive scorn, fear, and oftentimes physically violent hatred of the cis/straight world.
And those of us in the cis/hetero world (however painfully and infuriatingly slowly and gradually) are starting to get the hell over it and accept that there is and always has been nothing in any way wrong with these people just existing as who they are and it does literally N-O-T-H-I-N-G what-so-fucking-ever to “threaten” a goddamn, blessed thing about the world continuing to spin, same as ever.
This is a fight that's been going on well long before you, I, everyone else here, and all our parents and grandparents, were ever born, and that certainly isn't remotely “hidden” or “obscure” historical information either.
No fucking shit.
Right. Which is what they've been saying – and fighting tirelessly for - right the fuck all along throughout all these many, many, many years now. Including today. Glad we at least agree on that front.
This again marks the return of the conspiratorial “agenda” shit. You're labeling LGBTQ people fighting for basic representation and visibility in mass media, along with their simply getting fed up and losing patience with cis/hetero people's excruciating slowness and stubbornness on any number of critically important issues for them (and at this point really, who the fuck can blame them?) as “Machiavellian” and akin to methods “used for oppression.”
Take stock of ALL the raw statistical information I've provided herein, all the historical context, and what's more, all the broader overarching nature of this issue and the stakes which are at play for which parties.
Take that ALL in, then stop for a moment and Listen. To. Yourself.
Take a moment to take some serious mental stock of the words that are coming out of your mouth/skull/keyboard, and the CONTEXT in which its being applied here.
*Perspective*. Take some of it. A whole lot of it in fact. Please.
You're telling me that you genuinely think and are equating one of the most cruelly and viciously oppressed & abused groups of people in this country, if not the world, as taking on the role of “oppressors” themselves because...
...because fucking what? Because you've had to hear words and terms like “non-binary” or “cis-gender” a few more times throughout your day (either in online discourse or in some movie or show you're a fan of) than you're used to? Because they're making clearer and more assured (to say nothing of LONG the fuck overdue) demands for equal and fair representation and visibility in mainstream media?
What exactly the fuck do you think it is in terms of your day to day life and material reality that is being so enormously inconvenienced, that its to a point where you feel in *any* which way that non-LGBTQ people such as you and I are being “oppressed” here by some of the single most powerless groups of people in the United States, and certainly among the most powerless across the fucking planet?
Jesus H. Christ. I've said numerous times that I wanted to keep this from being in any way personal (because it isn't personal, at least not towards you specifically), but statements like this make it incredibly difficult for me to not to call your basic character into question.
We're talking about gay and transgender people here: the former of which gained something even VAGUELY resembling some facsimile of equal rights under the law in the far off, bygone yesteryear of 2015 (4 whole years ago: you know, back in ancient times), and the latter of whom are – as we've repeatedly and in grueling detail established here - are statistically the recipients of some of the most VICIOUS and *brutal* forms of daily harassment, shaming, and physical violence/threats to their lives of ANY minority group currently in the United States (god only knows how much worse it is worldwide).
And who furthermore struggle *tremendously* to gain some SHRED of legal justice for those crimes committed against them, as oftentimes (as numerous studies and statistics have shown across decades now) a vast chunk of police and law enforcement refuse to take crimes committed against them seriously. Setting aside even the IMMENSE social and personal existential shit they have to deal with moment to moment, day to day in both coming out to their family and friends, and dealing with whatever fallout that comes from there? Or hell, just the existential turmoil that comes from just admitting what they are TO THEMSELVES?!
And you have the fucking unbridled arrogance and narcissism to tell these people (to the faces of at least two of them in this very thread no less) that THEY'RE the ones who are acting in a “militantly oppressive” manner?
Again, because what: you've seen some of them lose their cool a few times (and who the fuck can scarcely blame them at this point, given all the monumental amounts of shit they have to cope with?) in dealing with cis/hetero dudes who are astoundingly clueless, have ZERO sense of proportionality, historical reality, or basic degree of political and societal stakes – guys like yourself who blithely equate one group's very fight for survival, basic equality, and recognition of their humanity and place in society, versus a bunch of INCREDIBLY sheltered and ridiculously comfortable people who are mostly just annoyed that their dumb “escapist” fantasy nonsense is actually acknowledging basic realities and concepts surrounding historically under-represented people and thus is making them feel MILDLY uncomfortable?
For THOSE ungodly crimes against humanity you feel like THEY'RE the ones who are oppressing you, me, and other cis/hetero people in general?
I cannot even fathom a more petty and small-minded reaction towards people who are dealing with some of the most real, pressing, and oftentimes heinously horrible shit imaginable on a near DAILY basis.
You are presenting here, throughout this thread and with regards to this specific topic here, a baseline framework which is grotesquely ignorant of everything surrounding the LGBTQ community from recent political/social trends, to historical context, to basic conceptions of the day-to-day emotional and physical strain and terrors that they, as a marginalized and often irrationally feared & despised, people in society deal with.
The image of the present day LGBTQ person that you are illustrating and basing your assumptions and viewpoints on is that of a group of incredibly comfortable, complacent folks who seemingly don't have to deal with a great many genuinely real or serious problems, and are seemingly leading some relatively cushy and worry-free existences.
Enough to where a typical example of an LGBTQ person (as you apparently seem to envision them when engaging with them online about nerd minutia like Dragon Ball here or whatever, per your own words and descriptions of them within this thread) is that of apparently some spoiled kid who one day decided, by spur of the fucking moment and on a whim, to declare “I think I'm transgender/queer now!” because its the current fashionable fad of the moment or whatever.
And in so doing, they've become such entitled pricks all of a sudden, that they make it their mission in life to go out into the internet ether and make it their daily objective to engage in ridiculous “gotcha!” word games, rhetorical nitpicking, and mind-numbing semantic debates with random, average nerds online in order to brand them all “racist Nazis” in order to... to do fucking WHAT again exactly? What the fuck was this so-called “agenda” of theirs that they're all supposed to be pushing, and to WHAT material benefit of theirs is it?
Do you not grasp how unbelievably bird-brained, spectacularly idiotic, completely irrational, and totally ill thought-through this ENTIRE framing of the issue here is and has been right along?
Do you genuinely not grasp that it is nothing short of an absurdly asinine and deranged false equivocation to frame this whole issue as “LGBTQ people, who are on the receiving end and threat of violence almost daily, constantly bringing up buzzwords that mildly irritate me and are constantly asking that mass media that I happen to watch remember and acknowledge that they fucking exist – in no small part because increased media visibility actually helps people be less scared and hateful of them – is like, TOTALLY oppressive to the rest of us! Its almost Machiavellian how insidious it all is! They're almost starting to get as bad as the Nazis or something!”
I'm going to mince words somehow even LESS than I already have been up till now: this entire mindset from which you are basing ALL of this under is quite plainly “permanently weld a dunce cap to the base of your skull for the rest of your life” levels of idiotic and stupid in the most immense possible extreme.
I need to once more revisit for a second this bit from way earlier back in this post:
I hate repeating myself again but: its SO beyond clear that you haven't thought about ANY of this with even the barest-most MODICUM of depth or regard for the basic humanity and intelligence of the broader LGBTQ community.supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pmMe and many others are tired of certain groups forming their own off-brand political brand based on whatever identity they choose to be that day, and (speaking broadly here) claiming that because the status quo is oppressing them they have a right to reshape the world in their image no questions asked.
You continually reduce and belittle the incredibly harsh, harrowing, and immensely real struggles that these people have to deal with and are trying to fight back against – for which something like media representation and visibility is only *one single* example of a front in that fight and one single example of a tool at their disposal in the broader gaining social acceptance – by framing it in the most trivial, childishly infantile little “They're just trying to take over our clubhouse!” caliber nonsense imaginable.
And its not like you're hardly alone in this absurd framing either. I certainly am not trying to paint you as uniquely stupid in all this: this whole viewpoint of “Identity Politics” and “Political Correctness Gone Out of Control!” is of course part of a MUCH wider and overarching political narrative that's been almost entirely peddled and pushed forward by both legitimately (and blatantly obvious) dishonest scam-artists and grifters (across Youtube, Twitter, 4chan, Discord, and countless other avenues of social media), political extremists, and of course cluelessly gullible and naive dorks online (like some of the brain trusts over in the Vic thread on here) who are targeted by this crap and allow themselves to uncritically eat it up and buy into it.
Largely because it makes for a VASTLY over-simplified and comforting narrative relative to the more complex, harsher realities faced by people who, be it through their skin color/ethnicity, their sexuality, gender, religion, or even just their economic status, simply CANNOT afford to go about their day ignoring this bullshit and buy into fairytale bedtime stories along the lines of “Everything is fine or is otherwise getting better and working itself out, if only all these irritating, spoiled, and over-privileged minorities would stop raising so much racket and being so troublesome”.
Who gives a flying fuck? Rotten Tomatos reviews? Fucking seriously? *That's* your big go-to “What about when the other side does it?!” example?
Wasn't the “review bombing” of Batwoman on RT from anti-LGBTQ douchebags anyway? So what the fuck even was your point in bringing that shit up to begin with?
The thing with the Dave Chappelle special is a WHOLE other complicated knot with all manner of different nuances to it that I don't in ANY which way feel like unpacking at this point.
And in any case, it doesn't even fucking matter, since these examples you've provided as to your “See? What about when the OTHER SIDE does it?” are SO beyond trivial in the grander, broader scheme of things, that it hardly merits mentioning after all the other mountains of shit I've had to wade through here.
Jesus Christ, once again, can you fucking blame the LGBTQ community for sometimes running the fuck out of patience and sometimes losing their cool with dealing with fucking overgrown infants who take even the smallest, most pettiest fucking perceived slight as an instant excuse to immediately nuance-scold them for “being just as bad and just as tyrannical as the bigots who are actively oppressing and abusing them”, perspective and proportionality be damned?
Christ, I'm just another random-ass cis/hetero white dude and *I'VE* loooooong past run the fuck out of patience with unpacking this shit and spoon-feeding it to other cis/hetero white dudes!
Relative this level of nonsense and what they have to put up with almost daily, both Kendamu and Julie here have been nothing less than straight-up saintly to you in their level or patience and restraint in this fucking thread.
Relevant (and painfully true and evergreen) webcomic to this very point:
First of all, plenty of LGBTQ people hold their own to account when they poorly represent the broader movement. Look no further than to folks like Dave Rubin, Blair White, Milo Yiannopolous, and to a lesser extent Caitlyn Jenner, for some clear and obvious examples of LGBTQ people who are clear and obvious toxic elements that more than the vast majority of the community will gladly renounce.supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 amI'm pissed when straight white people do it and call them out on it whether I align with their world view or not. The golden rule, above all else, is hold yourself accountable. If you feel represented by a certain organized effort and they start misrepresenting facts, creating further division, or clearly pursuing an agenda that is masquerading as a just cause to your movement, hold them accountable.
Hell, a good number of them are examples of LGBTQ people who are sellouts enough to happily promote the idea that “Struggles for LGBTQ people are largely over and done with and are a myth now, and any further noise is pointless nonsense and agenda-driven.” just to earn a dishonest buck.
And secondly, since I'm keeping score of this, yet again you bring up this “agenda” that a preponderance of people within the LGBTQ community are supposedly pushing for in their demanding of mass media to represent LGBTQ people more often and with the same nuance, humanity, and lack of stereotyping that we extend to other racial and minority groups (usually/nominally at least). And once again, you utterly fail to define A) what the agenda even is, and B) why its SO noxious and terrible, that other LGBTQ people need to hold the others to account and call them out on it.
Unless you're willing to enlighten me and blow me away with a genuinely great answer to this, my only conclusion here can be that you simply haven't in any way thought this through that far ahead, and have simply gotten into the comfortable rhythm of just parroting buzzwords and talking points regurgitated in online nerd echo-chambers who view social media posts and Youtube videos with titles like “SJWs are censoring boobs out of video games and comic books! Its all part of a conspiratorial agenda against straight, white males!” and other such moronic nonsense as being the end-all, be-all of politics and civil unrest.
If I'm 100% wrong in that conclusion, then I am absolutely primed, ready, and waiting to be proven wrong with a pointed and well-reasoned response to that basic, fundamental question: what is this seemingly sinister “agenda” that LGBTQ people are pushing for (that isn't just equal/fair/non-stereotypical representation across media) and why is it so corrosive and awful that it warrants being made a direct equivalent with anti-LGBTQ violence, bigotry, and hatred?
If you have a REALLY great answer to this then PLEASE knock my fucking socks off with it. I genuinely want to hear this.
The bolded & underlined part of this (mercifully) final block of text that - at long last – wraps up this hellscape of a post (which I can assure you all was as torturous for me to write as I'm sure it may well be to you or anyone else who manages to read through it) is ultra-relevant.supersaiyanZero wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 amPiccolo was written and created by a Japanese guy 30 years ago. He's a fucking alien. He's probably genderless and asexual because he's a fucking walking, talking, karate chopping plant. He sounds masculine and portrays masculine behaviors because he was written by a dude. He doesn't "identify" as shit except maybe Namekian. Is there room for opportunity to use this piece of lore to perhaps, maybe expand his character's isolation that might resonate with the LBGT community? You know what, absolutely. If it's handled well I'm all for it. If it's simply slapping him with a label because people want some sort of label to appease whoever, then I'm absolutely against that. It's really not that hard to understand.
For the very simple reason that that's literally all that people like Julie, Kendamu and whomever else in this thread were motherfucking suggesting in the first fucking place.
After ALL this asinine, pointless, meandering, conspiratorial “You're just trying to push your identity politics agenda on us!” fucking bullshit... you ultimately arrive at the whole central thesis that every sane person in this thread was trying to suggest to begin with.
Once again, for the final time, we need to highlight how *beyond* pointless this entire fucking argument has been from moment goddamned one. The people making the reasonable, cogent, inoffensive, and sensible fucking points in thread...
(“Hey, even though OBVIOUSLY Toriyama didn't consciously think of it this way when he was writing the Saiya-jin and Freeza arc, Piccolo still effectively slots in rather perfectly with a number of unusual non-binary gender identity traits: perhaps a more thoughtful writer in the Dragon Room someday could maybe do something with it that can emotionally connect in an effective, sensitive way to Dragon Ball's LGBTQ fans?”)
...have been the two trans women (one of whom I usually tend to tremendously disagree with on like anywhere from 60 to 70% of the shit she usually says here in many of her posts; though again in fairness, it generally isn't in regards to this kind of stuff).
Whereas all *you've* brought to the table here in this goddamned horrorshow of a thread has been dimestore Gamergate/Redpill-class intellectually dead-end, go-nowhere, nonsensical, missing-the-forest-for-the-trees bullshit talking points parroted largely by neckbearded incel 4chan/reddit dweebs that, when boiled down to its essence, effectively amounts to:
“The SJWs are ruining my precious escapist cartoons with their identity politics and their sneaky agenda to... to... have people actually think more critically about and show more care and compassion and empathy for the well-being of a few incredibly vulnerable and horribly abused and systematically oppressed minority groups... which is REALLY harmful and insidiously dangerous to me and impacts my life and the lives of other cis/hetero white dudes because... for like... y'know... reasons and stuff!”
Lastly and most importantly, before I finally sign off on this hellishly long post for keeps: as promised WAY earlier in all this, some actual honest to god books on the incredibly important subject of the struggles of the LGBTQ community and its history throughout America all across its entire history.
A large majority of which I've read myself at some point in time, and certainly all which I'd HIGHLY recommend as invaluable resources of insight, history, and understanding as to the gravity of this issue for not only SuperSaiyanZero (assuming he's somehow managed to make it this far), but also for anyone else here who's managed to somehow or other read their way through all this and might be in need of better or further educating themselves on this particular and noteworthy topic.
A Queer History of the United States (ReVisioning American History) by Michael Bronski (2012)
A Desired Past: A Short History of Same-Sex Love in America by Leila J. Rupp (2002)
Out for Good: The Struggle to Build a Gay Rights Movement in America by Dudley Clendinen and Adam Nagourney (1999)
Transgender History, second edition: The Roots of Today's Revolution by Susan Stryker (2017)
Transgender Warriors : Making History from Joan of Arc to Dennis Rodman by Leslie Feinberg (1997)
Queer: A Graphic History by Dr. Meg-John Barker and Julia Scheele (2016)
Queer (In)Justice: The Criminalization of LGBT People in the United States by Joey Mogul, Andrea Ritchie, and Kay Whitlock (2011)
The Gay Revolution: The Story of the Struggle by Lillian Faderman (2016)
Encyclopedia of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender History in America (3 Volume Set) by Marc Stein (2003)
Queer America: A People's GLBT History of the United States (New Press People's History) by Vicki L. Eaklor (2011)
Hidden From History: Reclaiming the Gay and Lesbian past by Martin Bauml Duberman (1989)
Second Skins by Jay Prosser (1998)
Histories of the Transgender Child by Julian Gill-Peterson (2018)
And lastly, in memoriam of those who were taken from us this year.