Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:48 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:43 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:37 pm
XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:30 pm

Ah my old foe, ShindoL. It must have been around 177013 times that you’ve crossed my path by now.
Isnt that the guy who wrote that Emergence shit?
https://youtu.be/xECUrlnXCqk
Ah i get it now. my bad lol

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:52 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:37 pm
XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:30 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:08 pm
ShindoL
Ah my old foe, ShindoL. It must have been around 177013 times that you’ve crossed my path by now.
Isnt that the guy who wrote that Emergence shit?
Why, yes, he is! I enjoy his work a lot and Emergence/Metamorphosis/Henshin is one of my favorite books of his. I prefer his vanilla stuff but his darker stories are just...masterpieces. Metamorphosis is a masterpiece. I aspire to make something both horrifying and sexy one day. He's also a swell fellow in interviews, it seems.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:14 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:52 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:37 pm
XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:30 pm

Ah my old foe, ShindoL. It must have been around 177013 times that you’ve crossed my path by now.
Isnt that the guy who wrote that Emergence shit?
Why, yes, he is! I enjoy his work a lot and Emergence/Metamorphosis/Henshin is one of my favorite books of his. I prefer his vanilla stuff but his darker stories are just...masterpieces. Metamorphosis is a masterpiece. I aspire to make something both horrifying and sexy one day. He's also a swell fellow in interviews, it seems.
Masterpiece is the last thing i'd use to describe that, but to each their own.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:20 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:14 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:52 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:37 pm


Isnt that the guy who wrote that Emergence shit?
Why, yes, he is! I enjoy his work a lot and Emergence/Metamorphosis/Henshin is one of my favorite books of his. I prefer his vanilla stuff but his darker stories are just...masterpieces. Metamorphosis is a masterpiece. I aspire to make something both horrifying and sexy one day. He's also a swell fellow in interviews, it seems.
Masterpiece is the last thing i'd use to describe that, but to each their own.
It's a well made fap comic that has a nice, sad story to it. I think that sort of work is what makes Japanese porn comics so much fun and as a critical medium so much more 'complete' than non-sex stories. That being said, I wonder if I could actually read it again now that I'm on HRT. It's so sad I might not be able to emotionally handle it. :lol:
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:27 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:14 pm
Masterpiece is the last thing i'd use to describe that, but to each their own.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. The ending was great! :lol:
https://m.imgur.com/a/MFJVdEe (NSFW)

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:50 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:27 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:14 pm
Masterpiece is the last thing i'd use to describe that, but to each their own.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. The ending was great! :lol:
https://m.imgur.com/a/MFJVdEe (NSFW)
This is the only acceptable version of that story :lol:

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:18 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:37 pm
Dr. Casey wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:23 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:09 pm
Also, Mike: that was a nice book to read and super important for it to be public.
Kunzait's name isn't Mike :P That's Vegetto's.
I swear to goodness he once said he was also named Mike. G*sh h*ck it...
Uh.... nope. I'm most definitely not a Mike. :lol: :lol: Where did you ever hear me say that?

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:07 pm
Kunzait definitely has a wide variety of knowledge about the western fandom. I'd definitely buy a book if he wrote one like Ryan did. The only caveat is that his knowledge is mainly about the western fandom , which isn't always useful in approaching the Otaku side of things. Western fans and Otaku are two different beasts in a lot of respects but luckily there is plenty of use for his myriad of knowledge on this forum since the US fans are most vocal.
I mean... its not as if I know NOTHING at all about Japanese anime/manga fandom or its history. Its certainly not my main area of focus, but I certainly wouldn't say that I'm totally without ANY understanding or information about the history of the native side of anime/manga fandom.

My main area of focus and knowledge happens to be the Western side of things for the simple and express reason that I actually lived through it and experienced it firsthand (throughout all its myriad of ups and downs) for... fuck, for about 30 years now. :shock: :shock: :shock: God, its been THAT long already? Oof. Time, she flies.

Anyway, I can't really offer the same level of perspective or insight into the Japanese side of things, because like most of the rest of us here, I'm just a far-off, outside observer. I only know what I've read throughout the decades. That's certainly not nothing, but its hardly anywhere near the same thing as what I've accumulated in my experiences in the U.S./Western end of things. Its one thing to read about something, its quite another having actually lived it.

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:30 pm
I don’t entirely agree with Kunzait’s interpretation of the otaku/anime fandom having been infiltrated by the alt right as if they were EVER (in general term) sweet loving people who weren’t bitter misogynists and racists. Maybe it’s just that I’ve been into anime for longer than most here and have talked with/watched many anime in clubs, chats, streams, whatever.

Those bigoted views were always there, albeit under the surface. Many of you didn’t notice because the anime fandom largely had no reason to be angry and outspoken. “It’ll never happen to us! Japan doesn’t care about wokeness or being PC!”
Yeah, lets not let anyone here get things twisted: I am in NO WAY WHATSOEVER making the claim here that Western anime fandom was ever at ANY point some completely innocent, squeaky clean, bigotry-free realm that was suddenly turned into the KKK on a dime overnight.

What I HAVE been saying (and linking to plenty of articles and research on) is that far right wing extremist hate groups (including Neo Nazis from online fascist communities like Stormfront and the Daily Stormer) have absolutely and qithout question been expressly targeting and infiltrating gaming, anime, and comic book fandom communities online for express purposes of spreading propaganda and recruitment.

That DOESN'T mean that in so doing they are 100% across the board taking what were once perfectly squeaky clean and angelic little perfect saints and transforming them overnight into vile zealots. That obviously isn't how this works. Their approach, tactics, and the kinds of people that they zero in on within these communities is something that varies WILDLY from case to case.

In a great many cases obviously, they are simply taking ingrained biases and stereotypes in people's minds that were ALREADY there to begin with throughout many areas of these communities (many of us who've been neck deep into geek communities throughout the years/decades have certainly come across more than plenty of hateful, racist attitudes and language all throughout) and are simply further stoking, harnessing, and weaponizing them with propaganda, misinformation, and appeals to deep insecurities masquerading as "logical arguments".

In other cases however, they certainly ARE also going after some other kinds of people in these communities that were once very much apolitical and generally knew very little to nothing at all about politics, about racial issues, etc. and are taking advantage of their naive gullibility and lack of experience and critical thought in these issues, while also appealing to their innermost fears, insecurities, and so on in order to indoctrinate them into a kind of cult-like mentality.

Obviously none of this is to say that folks like some of the people in this thread are people who have Neo Nazis whispering directly into their ear at all times 24/7. This whole thing is like an onion with numerous layers to it, and propaganda spreads from the root source (far right fascist/Nazi extremist groups) out first into a group of hardcore followers who then spread it out toward people that they know online, and then they spread it, until it eventually gets to people with a social media following and a Youtube base, who then spread it into the heads of Joe and Jane random nerds. Sites like 4chan (and 8chan before it was taken down) also help spread this crap tremendously in a far more direct way, as its all 100% anonymous.

Joe Blow random nerd will often just absorb some SMALL piece of the propaganda, and just go on about their lives, blissfully unaware of the deeper roots of the nonsense bullshit they now parrot and believe to be accurate information. Some percentage though will go a bit deeper down into the rabbit hole and get sucked in further, and other still will get sucked SO far in that they actually DO get recruited into one of these hate groups.

There's an increasing amount that's being written, researched, and discussed now about the Youtube/Reddit/4chan to alt-right pipeline, how they expressly tap into and recruit from communities very much like Kanzenshuu; or really, just anyplace on the internet that's filled with young people, particularly white guys, who feel alienated and lost with few real life friend or family connections, and have some emotional void that they feel needs to be filled.

Back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, these kinds of Neo Nazi groups used to find these kinds of people in and recruit them from trailer parks and other poor, downtrodden, and poverty-stricken "white trash" areas. In the late 2000s and 2010s, they've changed their focus slightly and instead have begun to plumb online nerd/geek/gaming/anime communities for such people.

In both cases though, the emotional mentality is very much the same, and the main thrust of the recruitment is the same: give these lonely people a sense of "belonging" to a community or surrogate family and strengthen that bond via giving them a clear and defined "enemy" upon which to blame and focus all of their pent up anger, despair, and resentment upon (LGBTQs, blacks, Latinos, Jews, etc).

That's of course for those who get sucked in deep enough that they become recruitment fodder. For VASTLY more people who DON'T get pulled down that deeply but still are someone receptive to some of the messaging, they're just useful idiots who help spread the nonsense, pad out the polling numbers of some of these viewpoints, and otherwise just help keep the bullshit out in the public spotlight and help make it seem less "fringe" and more like a legitimate political perspective with legs.

Apart from my having done a TON of reading on this topic throughout the better part of the last 6 years or so, I also have a pretty vast amount of personal firsthand experience with it, having known and befriended personally a good number of people (who fit the general profile pretty spot on) who've been sucked fairly deep into these groups through these specific avenues and through various other online geek media communities they were a part of. Some got themselves out of it (at a certain stage, its pretty much exactly the same as trying to get out of a cult): others are still, unfortunately, pretty far gone into it.

This has been going on for QUITE awhile now: since at the very least the late 2000s or thereabouts, at least in this much of an organized and purposeful fashion.

There are vast, VAST networks of Discord servers run by and catering to these online hate mobs: I've personally been in many of them and have had EXTENSIVE conversations with people in them, who range anywhere from regulars among the rank and file numbers to even some of the guys who personally do some of the "recruitment" themselves: via outreach into online forums, or creating "memes" that are basically extremist propaganda masquerading themselves as "edgy lulz!" and so on.

I've talked to people on there as young as 11 or 12 years old who've been conditioned by these hate communities (having been plucked originally from anything from Minecraft to Smash Bros communities and so on) to believe in "the Jewish Conspiracy", in Holocaust denial, and other such monstrous horrors. I've gotten into LENGTHY debates and discussions with a whole TON of young people in these groups who've been lead to believe in race/IQ theory and are digging up and dusting off long discredited and disproven Phrenology-like pseudo-science (with again, roots in Nazism and Nazi-affiliated organizations) about biological deficiencies in black people compared to whites. I even for a brief period had joined and contributed some help to a server run by former members of these extremist groups that's dedicated to trying to help deradicalize them and get them out of it.

In that time, I've talked to recruiters (who make forum posts and memes made to hook gullible kids into this kind of thinking) that are parents themselves and are raising their own kids on this sewage, I've talked to former members who've recounted and retraced their steps of how they got to that point from originally a place of being a lonely, unemployed, Hikikomori-esque lost souls with no friends and no close family connections whiling away their 20s on video game and anime forums all day until these ideologies (methodically fed to them piecemeal via a series of charismatic Youtube personalities, anonymous 4chan posts, and various Discord chats) gave them for the first time a sense of "purpose" and "meaning" in their lives.

And in one particularly memorable instance, I spent nearly a full 24 hour day on Discord voice chat with one alt-right kid (who originally got sucked in via Pokemon threads on 4chan) who had reached the point where he was stealing his father's gun collection and planning on shooting up his entire neighborhood. We spent the entire day trying to talk him down from going through with it, and ultimately ended up having to call the police on him. :cry: :cry:

And yes, a LOT of the more ridiculous, nonsense talking points, not just from this thread but also from within threads like the Vic thread, and a few of the other more noxious views parroted in this forum as of late... many of them most CERTAINLY have their roots within these kinds of hate groups. Which is PRECISELY why a number of people, particularly from marginalized groups that are themselves targets of the hate (LGBTW, black & brown people, etc) who see these talking points tend to label them as "Nazi"-like views. This ISN'T for no reason.

Because, whether you choose to believe that you've been hoodwinked into buying and parroting Neo Nazi talking points, that doesn't alter the reality that that's PRECISELY what you're doing in many cases whenever you find yourself going on about "Identity Politics is ruining our culture!" and "SJWs are just as bad and just as extreme as those they're fighting against!" or whatever dumb, dumb nonsense about "Cultural Marxism", and so on. The point of ALL of this crap is to muddy the waters and either suck people into the far right rabbit hole, or else otherwise throw up their hands in frustration and say "I can't tell who's right or wrong anymore! They're ALL full of shit across the board!"

This is a VERY important and - in the grander scheme of things - still a criminally under-discussed phenomenon within the past decade now that's lurking at the heart of where a LOT of these kinds of issues within geek communities has been initially stirring from. There's FAR more nuance and complexities to it obviously, and the various political failings in governments all around the world play a LOT into the effectiveness of these groups... but that's a topic for another day.

For an even more in-depth look into how these hate groups have been infiltrating and hooking in young, lonely, and depressed people from nerd/geek communities like ours here, here's an absolutely invaluable and sobering Twitter thread that offers one of the most spot-on accurate and in-depth firsthand accounts of any I've ever seen that matches up fairly flawlessly to everything that I've both seen for myself firsthand and have read and researched about in how these groups have been operating now.

Oh I'm sorry, but let us not forget still:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
I think it's also because this is probably the most tolerant time in human history.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Skar » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:38 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:18 pm
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
I think it's also because this is probably the most tolerant time in human history.
Image Image
I haven't been following this whole discussion (there's a lot to read sorry!) but what about this statement do you disagree with? Has there ever been a point in history that racial/religious minorities, LBGT, and women have been given more freedom and representation in media than they have now? In every major city and university campus around the world, you'll see people from various backgrounds getting along and standing up against discrimination.

I'm Palestinian and live in rural NY state with 90% of the population being white. I've rarely experienced any racism or intolerance. In fact, it was only once from a single redneck at work who told me to go back to my country (I was born here but that didn't concern him). Our manager overheard him and gave him a warning so the guy ended up quitting. The manager was also a white and a war veteran. My father tells me how difficult it was for him when he first moved here since minorities mostly had low paying jobs with little opportunity for advancement and had to put up with discrimination. There's still a long way to go but I would say humanity is becoming more tolerant with each passing generation based on what I've experienced.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Kendamu » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:52 pm

If we're gonna speak anecdotally, it's gotten harder for LGBTQ folks (especially of the T variety) thanks to Republicans since about 2016 or so.

I can't even say "Piccolo is canon asexual and there are asexual folks who see themselves in the character" without some guy chaining alt-Right conspiracy memes at me for several paragraphs.

I'm sure that would've been a little less painful to try and discuss in say... 2014.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:57 pm

Bah, Julie has massive depression and literally had blotches of her memories that she has lost. >_>

Also, this Twitter thread does a great job of discussing how mothers are being faced with having to make sure their white sons don't get radicalized: https://twitter.com/iproposethis/status ... 89920?s=19
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:06 pm

I don't have first hand experience with this, but from a long range historical perspective, overall the human race has progressed a lot over the course of its history. There might be dips and prolonged periods of regression, but overall, I do think humanity is getting better. It's not at the rate any of us would like and we have a LOT further distance we need to travel, but there isn't another time I'd like to live in.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:15 pm

"Things are getting better over time!" Is a useless fucking platitude and cliche that means nothing to those of us still putting up with bullshit, which is...all of us. It is meant to take the wind out of our sails and tell us not to demand better immediately.

Signed, a queer woman who is emotionally abused by family constantly and can only be herself in public, where she runs the risk of being murdered while going into the Little Caesar's for a pep and Crazy Bread combo.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:31 pm

I think the election of Trump and subsequent rise in hate crimes is a reaction to the election of Obama, which brought a lot of racists out of the woodwork. Hopefully it's a temporary phenomenon.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:34 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:15 pm
"Things are getting better over time!" Is a useless fucking platitude and cliche that means nothing to those of us still putting up with bullshit, which is...all of us. It is meant to take the wind out of our sails and tell us not to demand better immediately.

Signed, a queer woman who is emotionally abused by family constantly and can only be herself in public, where she runs the risk of being murdered while going into the Little Caesar's for a pep and Crazy Bread combo.

I'm sorry if this is an insensitive question, but have you ever been physically assaulted in public like that?
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:53 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:15 pm
"Things are getting better over time!" Is a useless fucking platitude and cliche that means nothing to those of us still putting up with bullshit, which is...all of us. It is meant to take the wind out of our sails and tell us not to demand better immediately.

Signed, a queer woman who is emotionally abused by family constantly and can only be herself in public, where she runs the risk of being murdered while going into the Little Caesar's for a pep and Crazy Bread combo.
It's not a useless platitude. It may not seem like things are getting better when you're in the thick of things, but it should serve as a reminder that the struggle is worth it. Maybe some mean it as a way to take the wind out of people's sails, but not everything is meant in bad faith.

Do you think being transgender in the 50's would be preferable? Almost nothing ever occurs as fast as we want it, but people giving you encouragement, even clichés, should not be automatically disregarded as disingenuous.

Here's another cliché, but on that none the less holds true - almost nothing worth having in life comes easy.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:06 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:34 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:15 pm
"Things are getting better over time!" Is a useless fucking platitude and cliche that means nothing to those of us still putting up with bullshit, which is...all of us. It is meant to take the wind out of our sails and tell us not to demand better immediately.

Signed, a queer woman who is emotionally abused by family constantly and can only be herself in public, where she runs the risk of being murdered while going into the Little Caesar's for a pep and Crazy Bread combo.

I'm sorry if this is an insensitive question, but have you ever been physically assaulted in public like that?
Not yet, luckily. I have been given a lot of uncomfortable looks and even called 'faggot' once but I try to stay on edge when I'm out presenting. I really hope HRT changes my face more so I can pass. I can do without big boobs (although I'd love to have them) if it means I get a passing face faster. Both so that I don't get massive dysphoria when I see my reflection and so that it's harder for the public to tell that I'm trans. Having short hair isn't helping, either.

Well, I'm conflicted, too. I don't want to have to start dressing like a heteronormative girl, either. I love my rainbow knee socks and clashing bright colored skirts with dark tops! Ooh, I love my purple lip matte, too! Being a queer bitch is praxis. :cool:
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:08 pm

Skar wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:38 pm
I haven't been following this whole discussion (there's a lot to read sorry!) but what about this statement do you disagree with? Has there ever been a point in history that racial/religious minorities, LBGT, and women have been given more freedom and representation in media than they have now? In every major city and university campus around the world, you'll see people from various backgrounds getting along and standing up against discrimination.

I'm Palestinian and live in rural NY state with 90% of the population being white. I've rarely experienced any racism or intolerance. In fact, it was only once from a single redneck at work who told me to go back to my country (I was born here but that didn't concern him). Our manager overheard him and gave him a warning so the guy ended up quitting. The manager was also a white and a war veteran. My father tells me how difficult it was for him when he first moved here since minorities mostly had low paying jobs with little opportunity for advancement and had to put up with discrimination. There's still a long way to go but I would say humanity is becoming more tolerant with each passing generation based on what I've experienced.
Image
Skar wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:38 pm
I haven't been following this whole discussion (there's a lot to read sorry!) but what about this statement do you disagree with?
Please, PLEASE actually read what's been said first (hugely lengthy though it is) before making comments like this about points that have been thoroughly addressed in grueling detail, but here's some quick and relevant highlights:
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:01 am
Once more highlighting the hilarious absurdity of the bolded statement regarding this being “the most tolerant time in human history”, given the actual statistical and on-the-ground reality of what's going on out there presently for both the LGBTQ community and people of color right here and now.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:01 am
Corrupt politicians who are pushing corrosive legislation against these various minority groups with the financial backing of various far right wing extremist think tanks with a variety of ties to outright white supremacist and Neo Nazi organizations and ideologies, further bolstered online by a slew of gullible, bitter, alienated, naive kids on various chan and gaming/anime forums who have been expressly targeted by these very same white supremacist interest groups throughout much of the past six/seven or so years now for indoctrination and disinformation campaigns.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:01 am
(which tends to be various right wing extremist hate groups who, again, have been specifically targeting gaming, comic book, and anime “geek” communities to help spread this crap)
And also, some bonus reading:

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4

Link 5

Link 6

Link 7

Skar wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:38 pm
I'm Palestinian and live in rural NY state with 90% of the population being white. I've rarely experienced any racism or intolerance.
"I haven't experienced or seen it myself, therefore it must not be a thing or be that big of a deal!" is the root fallacy behind a LOT of the ridiculous, absurd naivete that's at the heart of some of the blind (and blatantly incorrect) assumptions about the realities of these problems that people often make. Related point: see also the "Just World Fallacy".

Also, speaking as someone who's lived their whole life just outside of NYC: try moving into the city sometime for awhile, then get back to me on your thoughts on this matter.

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:06 pm
I don't have first hand experience with this, but from a long range historical perspective, overall the human race has progressed a lot over the course of its history. There might be dips and prolonged periods of regression, but overall, I do think humanity is getting better. It's not at the rate any of us would like and we have a LOT further distance we need to travel, but there isn't another time I'd like to live in.
The bolded part of this is pretty key in all this, and its always telling.

I'm certainly not saying in all of this (nor is anyone else really) that NO progress has EVER been made in all these many years/generations now. That's obviously and demonstrably not the case. Of course in the overall broader arc of history, we've been (however sloooooooowly and piecemeal) inching in the correct general direction. Quoth MLK:

“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.”

But of course, putting TOO much blind faith into that sentiment is both an inherently incorrect and misguided view of what it actually means in practical reality, and its a blatant misreading of what Dr. King originally meant by it.

Looking at the overarching broader trends of history from afar at a safe distance away is a WHOLLY different animal from actually being up close and personal in the thick of the mess itself, much less getting punched full on in the face by the horrifying realities of the myriad of ways in which we have not yet gotten better. Which also makes it INCREDIBLY easy to fall into the habit of wildly over-estimating the degree to which certain things have gotten better (or underestimating how severely certain things have backslid and regressed).

What I mean is: if you're someone who's a comfortable dude living a fairly, reasonably comfortable life to a point of not having really been touched by any of these problems yourself (and while statistically, its overwhelmingly most often white people who tend to have this perspective, obviously this is far from ALWAYS the case: as evidenced by where someone like Skar - a Palestinian- and someone like myself - a white dude - stand in our views)...

...it is then INCREDIBLY easy - not to mention emotionally comforting and soothing - to have the stance of "Yes, of course these things are bad and need to be fixed... but come on, they're not STILL that bad even *today*, are they?" when you yourself are at a safe and far off distance away from getting touched or hurt personally by any of the debris.

What people like Julie, Kendamu, and myself (all of us people who have, to one extent or another, been smashed upside the face by these realities firsthand) are trying to say in response to this is "Try looking people like this woman here in the eyes and telling THEM that."

Certain elements may have gotten better over time, but there are still COUNTLESS people out there whose lives are literally being destroyed over these problems still. I understand trying to keep the goals in perspective, but what I think Julie is trying to tell you ABED is that this is NOT a useful or comforting sentiment when its YOUR life that's being threatened/ruined, when its YOUR life that's at stake, and its INCREDIBLY patronizing and belittling to be told differently by someone who simply DOES NOT have the same stakes or the same degree of skin in the game, and thus simply has ZERO way of understanding what the harshness of these problems (even in the "improved" state that they currently exist in) actually feels like.
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:12 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:53 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:15 pm
"Things are getting better over time!" Is a useless fucking platitude and cliche that means nothing to those of us still putting up with bullshit, which is...all of us. It is meant to take the wind out of our sails and tell us not to demand better immediately.

Signed, a queer woman who is emotionally abused by family constantly and can only be herself in public, where she runs the risk of being murdered while going into the Little Caesar's for a pep and Crazy Bread combo.
It's not a useless platitude. It may not seem like things are getting better when you're in the thick of things, but it should serve as a reminder that the struggle is worth it. Maybe some mean it as a way to take the wind out of people's sails, but not everything is meant in bad faith.

Do you think being transgender in the 50's would be preferable? Almost nothing ever occurs as fast as we want it, but people giving you encouragement, even clichés, should not be automatically disregarded as disingenuous.

Here's another cliché, but on that none the less holds true - almost nothing worth having in life comes easy.
This post is exactly what I just finished describing in the post you are quoting. Honey, this means nothing. You're trying to force modern experiences and past experiences into a competition just to belittle modern experiences. This is not a competition. This is a "Hey, shit sucked then and it still fucking sucks now" situation.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:13 pm

I don't believe that most people are saying that things aren't bad now, just that they were even worse 20/30+ years ago.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:18 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:13 pm
I don't believe that most people are saying that things aren't bad now, just that they were even worse 20/30+ years ago.
Which, while in SOME ways that may be true (though in plenty of others, this is vastly over-estimated by people who don't truly know what the fuck they're talking about in the first place), continually using that as a "buck up!" sentiment to people whose lives are STILL being systematically ruined and/or threatened by this stuff is INCREDIBLY unhelpful and infuriating: particularly when its coming (as it so often does) from people who simply have not (and may well never) actually have to go through it and deal with the horrors of the repercussions themselves.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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