All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:48 pm

wolflonnie wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:46 pm
I am and I wish the anime kept going. I was skeptical in the beginning, but I grew in love with Super, perhaps a bit more than DBZ.
What specifically did you find better than DBZ?
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by wolflonnie » Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:08 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:48 pm
wolflonnie wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:46 pm
I am and I wish the anime kept going. I was skeptical in the beginning, but I grew in love with Super, perhaps a bit more than DBZ.
What specifically did you find better than DBZ?
This is strictly the anime, but:
- The spirit and general tone. It's much more laidback, fun-loving, jolly and relaxed than DBZ.
- The tactics used in some battles.
- Overall more enjoyable (Androids and Majin Buu aren't my cup of thea).

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:55 pm

I wouldn’t describe the Future Trunks arc or the Tournament of Power arc as “laidback” or “fun-loving”. They were both fairly depressing for Dragon Ball. Sure, the anime version of Super did have some pretty lighthearted filler and slice of life episodes, but they don’t change the fact that something like the Tournament of Power went on for a very long time.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:51 pm

wolflonnie wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:08 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:48 pm
wolflonnie wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:46 pm
I am and I wish the anime kept going. I was skeptical in the beginning, but I grew in love with Super, perhaps a bit more than DBZ.
What specifically did you find better than DBZ?
This is strictly the anime, but:
- The spirit and general tone. It's much more laidback, fun-loving, jolly and relaxed than DBZ.
- The tactics used in some battles.
- Overall more enjoyable (Androids and Majin Buu aren't my cup of thea).
Have you seen the original series and GT?

Because if not, then judging from this post, I think you'll really enjoy them. :)
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:55 pm
I wouldn’t describe the Future Trunks arc or the Tournament of Power arc as “laidback” or “fun-loving”. They were both fairly depressing for Dragon Ball. Sure, the anime version of Super did have some pretty lighthearted filler and slice of life episodes, but they don’t change the fact that something like the Tournament of Power went on for a very long time.
In fairness, Super's overall tone is quite laid-back; even at its darkest moments, there's a sense that things tend to work out. Super very much always heads to a reset state, and we all already know how the story ends, so... It's just not as much of a tense show, I think, is what wolflonnie's probably getting at with that.
Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, but... This is what I assumed.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:50 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:51 pm
In fairness, Super's overall tone is quite laid-back; even at its darkest moments, there's a sense that things tend to work out. Super very much always heads to a reset state, and we all already know how the story ends, so... It's just not as much of a tense show, I think, is what wolflonnie's probably getting at with that.
Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, but... This is what I assumed.
I’m not saying it’s an exceptionally dark show overall, but the two arcs I mentioned weren’t exactly feel good stories. I know I got some flack earlier this year for suggesting that Dragon Ball might be a cynical series, but I think those two arcs actually did border on being nihilistic. With that being said, I did like the reveal that the Tournament of Power was all a secret test of character, but that twist unfortunately only applies to the anime.

Hell, even outside of those two arcs, Super’s adaptation of Battle of Gods seemed unnecessarily tense for something based on what was a fairly laidback film. A good example of this is how unnecessarily dramatic Beerus slapping Bulma was depicted as.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:11 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:55 pm
I wouldn’t describe the Future Trunks arc or the Tournament of Power arc as “laidback” or “fun-loving”. They were both fairly depressing for Dragon Ball. Sure, the anime version of Super did have some pretty lighthearted filler and slice of life episodes, but they don’t change the fact that something like the Tournament of Power went on for a very long time.
I think while they were both dark and high-stakes on paper, the show is ultimately aware of its midquel nature and keeps the drama at arm's length. That's not a problem in my book, it's pretty keeping with Toriyama's writing style to have everything presented with a detached level of irony. It was only really a problem with the ending Future Trunks, which had its dramatic moments throughout, but ended with everyone "getting over" the loss of Trunks' timeline a bit too easily.

Tournament of Power works better because it's a tournament, so no matter how high the stakes are, at the end of the day the main characters are still in it to test their strength. That's why there's so much goofing around even within the tournament, because saving the multiverse from annihilation is more a back-of-the-mind concern.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:39 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:55 pm
I wouldn’t describe the Future Trunks arc or the Tournament of Power arc as “laidback” or “fun-loving”. They were both fairly depressing for Dragon Ball. Sure, the anime version of Super did have some pretty lighthearted filler and slice of life episodes, but they don’t change the fact that something like the Tournament of Power went on for a very long time.
See, I feel that the Tournament of Power came across as very "laidback" and "fun-loving," and that was one of its main problems. The characters never took it as seriously as I felt they should, and as such, the stakes never felt that high. Aside from perhaps one moment, I never felt any despair or nihilism I felt a story like that necessitated.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:31 am

Terminator: Dark Fate is further evidence that revivals don't work. It's not an awful movie, and has plenty going for it, but overall it's mostly boring and brings nothing fundamentally new to the table. It retreads a lot of old ideas but with more current issues. Even the ending is a retread. After the central character arcs reach an organic end, the best they can do is either rip it away or do the same thing.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:46 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:11 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:55 pm
I wouldn’t describe the Future Trunks arc or the Tournament of Power arc as “laidback” or “fun-loving”. They were both fairly depressing for Dragon Ball. Sure, the anime version of Super did have some pretty lighthearted filler and slice of life episodes, but they don’t change the fact that something like the Tournament of Power went on for a very long time.
I think while they were both dark and high-stakes on paper, the show is ultimately aware of its midquel nature and keeps the drama at arm's length. That's not a problem in my book, it's pretty keeping with Toriyama's writing style to have everything presented with a detached level of irony. It was only really a problem with the ending Future Trunks, which had its dramatic moments throughout, but ended with everyone "getting over" the loss of Trunks' timeline a bit too easily.

Tournament of Power works better because it's a tournament, so no matter how high the stakes are, at the end of the day the main characters are still in it to test their strength. That's why there's so much goofing around even within the tournament, because saving the multiverse from annihilation is more a back-of-the-mind concern.
The fact that Super is a midquel doesn't really decrease the tension in the Future Trunks arc though, because in the End of Z we didn't know what happened to Future Trunks' timeline, so you didn't really know if everything would turn out alright. Also I am kind of mixed about your last point, because even if it is true that there aren't a lot of dramatic moments in that last episode (aside from bits like Mai desperately shooting at the sky or Trunks crying at the end), I feel like that's the point of the arc. That even if terrible things happen to you, you should never give up hope. That's what Future Trunks does. He failed to defend his timeline but at least he never gave up hope and he can now find some solace in a new timeline. Having the last episode be a little too dramatic and sad would kind of go against that message.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:54 am

But it's a disposable timeline. And we did know what happened, but like many revivals or just series that are too long in the tooth, they had to go and rip away the happy ending. Your point about the theme of the Future Trunks arc being "never giving up hope even in the darkest of times" is redundant. It's restating the point of his DBZ arc.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by wolflonnie » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:37 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:51 pm
wolflonnie wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:08 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:48 pm
What specifically did you find better than DBZ?
This is strictly the anime, but:
- The spirit and general tone. It's much more laidback, fun-loving, jolly and relaxed than DBZ.
- The tactics used in some battles.
- Overall more enjoyable (Androids and Majin Buu aren't my cup of thea).
Have you seen the original series and GT?

Because if not, then judging from this post, I think you'll really enjoy them. :)
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:55 pm
I wouldn’t describe the Future Trunks arc or the Tournament of Power arc as “laidback” or “fun-loving”. They were both fairly depressing for Dragon Ball. Sure, the anime version of Super did have some pretty lighthearted filler and slice of life episodes, but they don’t change the fact that something like the Tournament of Power went on for a very long time.
In fairness, Super's overall tone is quite laid-back; even at its darkest moments, there's a sense that things tend to work out. Super very much always heads to a reset state, and we all already know how the story ends, so... It's just not as much of a tense show, I think, is what wolflonnie's probably getting at with that.
Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, but... This is what I assumed.
Yeah pretty much, but other elements as well, and a in-depth reason.

I think the Zamasu arc has a very depressing ending, but it's generally more hopeful than most of DBZ's arcs. It has little moments like Trunks talking to Gohan, Krillin & 18, etc., as well as some goofy elements here and there that, for me at least, most of the times worked (ex.: excluding Pilaf gang's antics, including Trunks overreacting to 18 in the anime / Trunks playing videogames in the manga).
The Tournament of Power has some very dark elements as well, those being the Zenos, but it still has the feel of a test of strenght for Goku and co., so they enjoyed the competition. They didn't "just" fought for their lives.

These colorful, somewhat wacky elements are present as well in DBZ, but in a significant less quantity, and quality as well.
By quality I mean the Majin Buu saga, which attempted to mix DBZ seriousness with a return of DB's wackiness, but they didn't mesh that well because it was an on-going action and crisis.
The Zamasu arc stopped the action here and there to catch some breath and explore character interaction in a somewhat tranquil, goofy setting.

That tranquil and goofy writing is what better represent Toriyama.
Try reading his other works, including Dottor Slump, Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, while not as good as DB you can still notice that Toriyama's signature, quintessential style is a wacky, goofy, almost everyday one, mixed with interesting action sequences.

DBZ leans a lot on seriousness, action and stackes, while Super tried to balance it, which resulted in a better product, for me at least.

I still love dearly DBZ, I simply prefer DBS because I think it has more love to it.
If Toriyama were to write it and drew it by himself, I think it would've been infinitely better in quality, while still keeping the same feeling to it.
The main issues of the manga and anime originated by the fact that neither of them were written directly by the man himself, and just try their best to follow his thought, his vision. Sometimes they succeeded, sometimes they failed (ex.: Trunks' bullshit Genkidama sword in the anime, the rushed ToP in the manga).

I would also like to give one final piece of example.
So there's this YouTuber, Totally Not Mark, who often discusses the characters and the writing quality of DB, often doing a compelling and good job.
He proposed a rewrite of the Majin Buu saga. Link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHsC3bK6okM
To summarize, he aimed to remove "unnecessary" elements like the Potara Fusion, SSJ3, etc., making Gohan the main hero with better motivation and removing Majin Buu's array of forms.
This was my comment:
Sooo yeah, tl;dr: I think DBS does a better job in balancing drama/serious action with more mundane, wacky and funny elements.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:51 pm

I understand what wolflonnie says. What DBS did intented well, is that it wanted to make the series in a new, different tone of voice.
There were dark parts, but the general tone was more lighthearted, like the first part of the original DB-series were.
Sometimes they succeeded in doing that. The problem is some cases, was the execution.
The new tone of voice was sometimes translated in bad ideas (Trunks sword etc), probably not how Toriyama had wanted it to be.
But when all DBS-content had been presented to us in old fashion DBZ-style, wouldn't it simply have felt as "more of the same"?
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by wolflonnie » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:56 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:51 pm
I understand what wolflonnie says. What DBS did intented well, is that it wanted to make the series in a new tone of voice.
There were dark parts, but the general tone was more lighthearted, like the first part of the original DB-series were.
Sometimes they succeeded. The problem is some cases, was the execution and translation.
The new tone of voice was sometimes translated in bad ideas, probably not how Toriyama had done it.

When DBS-content was presented to us in old fashion DBZ-style, wouldn't it simply have been more of the same?
You got me 110% :D
If only Toriyama wrote and drew DBS from start to end, I think more people would've loved it, with less controversy.
I think that Toei tends to overdo in fanservice and over-the-top scenes (Genki sword Trunks, Rage form Trunks) that ultimately leave a very bad taste, while Toyotaro tends to overdo in details and logic (leading to the story breathing less than it could - there's a good analysis on it by Totally Not Mark), perhaps due to feeling pressured.
My preference is just me liking more well-balanced stories with a lot of soul, rather than mostly drama and tension. But again, it's just good ol' me.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:05 pm

Even though Toriyama was going through a more "serious" phase from the Tenshinhan arc through the Cell arc, he interspersed them with plenty of humor, but the shifts in tone worked well because they were felt like they were done with a constructive purpose as opposed to just being wacky. The Ginyu Force is very weird but the juxtaposition of their antics and their brutality works wonders. I don't think I've seen anything in modern DB that comes close to that level of execution.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by wolflonnie » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:28 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:05 pm
Even though Toriyama was going through a more "serious" phase from the Tenshinhan arc through the Cell arc, he interspersed them with plenty of humor, but the shifts in tone worked well because they were felt like they were done with a constructive purpose as opposed to just being wacky. The Ginyu Force is very weird but the juxtaposition of their antics and their brutality works wonders. I don't think I've seen anything in modern DB that comes close to that level of execution.
Ah that I agree. In fact I love the Frieza saga, and I specifically mentioned the Android saga and the Buu saga as "bad examples", even though I still like them (6-7 out of 10 so to say).

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:09 pm

Toriyama has a very distinctive quality as a writer. He can combine seriousness and comic relief in a balanced way.
But he can also describe an unexpected chain of events in such a way it becomes convincing.
Wacky things happen, but at the end it all fits well within a bigger scheme and events are for the most part explainable.

Because he only wrote the story outlets for Super TOEI and Toyotaro had to mimic his presence.
They do the unexpected things, but no thorough explaination is given, then the end result is sometimes absurd.

Sometimes they however succeeded in doing so. Toyotaros version of Future Trunks was more Toriyama-like than TOEIs.
But TOEI's version of TOP was more Toriyama-like than Toyotaros. In my opinion.
The one hour special was a TOEI-only product. UI Omen even wasn't Toriyamas idea. But it was written in a way like it could have been.
The Spirit Bomb resulting in UI for instance was a bit wacky, but it was executed in a convincing, almost cinematic manner.

I can somehow understand it's very hard to mimic Toriyamas style, although they tried hard, resulting in a more labile quality in comparison to the original series. I definitely don't agree with Super being just "trash", there were some too good moments that felt DB-worthy to call it that overall.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by anubisj » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:38 pm

I´m honestly not happy.

Super, for a long, very long number of reasons, has been creatively a disaster, in my opinion, manga included. I liked a few concepts, and that´s it. And now, this seems to be the new direction Dragon Ball is taking, so that makes things worse. Some of the things/concepts/moments/characters etc from Super have been so...disheartening, for lack of a better word, that I just can´t feel like I´m watching something belonging to the same Dragon Ball classic anime trilogy. One good thing resulting from Super, is that now I appreciate the original content much more.

Heroes is obviously not meant to be taken seriously, but I actually like a few of their ideas and characters.

Kai, for me (and I know many people would disagree), was something completely unneeded. But at least it was simply a rehash, so that people could choose. If someone likes to see a dbz "remake" they choose Kai, and I guess that made some nice revenue too.

Super, however, was meant to be the new Dragon Ball evolution...only it wasn´t an evolution, but rather, a rushed mess, a disappointment and a badly conceived series, from the start.

Finally, I would like to say that I would love to see a proper Dragon Ball anime revival, I´m open to new stuff, but please Toei, take good care of the franchise, and stop letting Toriyama be so responsible for everything, he is a genius, but a human being after all, not an all-powerful god sent from the heavens to make high quality Dragon Ball stories forever. He´s not necessary anymore (it´s like the entire franchise depends on his brain).

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:03 pm

anubisj wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:38 pm
and stop letting Toriyama be so responsible for everything, he is a genius, but a human being after all, not an all-powerful god sent from the heavens to make high quality Dragon Ball stories forever. He´s not necessary anymore (it´s like the entire franchise depends on his brain).
From everything I've read, he's not that involved. He gives ideas and that's it.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:33 pm

I can definitely say that I'm happy it happened.

When I was younger, I was a fan. But things fell into obscurity once a big public DB product was no longer being talked about. But then, a little thing called Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods happened. Suddenly, DB was big and newsworthy again, and there was new life being breathed into a franchise I thought was essentially finished at its core.

New and old fans were brought together again. One can't deny that, as a whole, things really kicked off and became active again once the revival happened. Notice just how slow things have gotten since no new major core content has been released.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:09 pm

wolflonnie wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:37 pm
I think the Zamasu arc has a very depressing ending, but it's generally more hopeful than most of DBZ's arcs. It has little moments like Trunks talking to Gohan, Krillin & 18, etc., as well as some goofy elements here and there that, for me at least, most of the times worked (ex.: excluding Pilaf gang's antics, including Trunks overreacting to 18 in the anime / Trunks playing videogames in the manga).
The Tournament of Power has some very dark elements as well, those being the Zenos, but it still has the feel of a test of strenght for Goku and co., so they enjoyed the competition. They didn't "just" fought for their lives.

These colorful, somewhat wacky elements are present as well in DBZ, but in a significant less quantity, and quality as well.
By quality I mean the Majin Buu saga, which attempted to mix DBZ seriousness with a return of DB's wackiness, but they didn't mesh that well because it was an on-going action and crisis.
The Zamasu arc stopped the action here and there to catch some breath and explore character interaction in a somewhat tranquil, goofy setting.

That tranquil and goofy writing is what better represent Toriyama.
Try reading his other works, including Dottor Slump, Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, while not as good as DB you can still notice that Toriyama's signature, quintessential style is a wacky, goofy, almost everyday one, mixed with interesting action sequences.

DBZ leans a lot on seriousness, action and stackes, while Super tried to balance it, which resulted in a better product, for me at least.
[...]
Sooo yeah, tl;dr: I think DBS does a better job in balancing drama/serious action with more mundane, wacky and funny elements.
You keep saying "DBZ" to refer to the original run, so I'm going to continue with my assumption that you've only seen Z and Super, and I'll repeat myself: Watch the non-Z shows from the original run, it sounds like they'd be right up your street. :)
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