All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Nightbane » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:38 pm

Yes yes yes, a thousand times yes. I been a Dragon Ball fan since the mid 90's and I adore Super, I honestly think it's superior to Z in every single way. Everyone I know who's been a fan for a long time also thinks Super is better than Z in every way.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Rory » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:46 pm

Nightbane wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:38 pm
Yes yes yes, a thousand times yes. I been a Dragon Ball fan since the mid 90's and I adore Super, I honestly think it's superior to Z in every single way. Everyone I know who's been a fan for a long time also thinks Super is better than Z in every way.
Can you elaborate? Not that I don't believe you, but I rarely hear this opinion, so I'd love to know what Super does right for you.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Majin Buu » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:42 am

No, I am not.

Aside from Zamasu, who genuinely represents something new Dragon Ball has never had (a main antagonist whose motives stem from ideology), this new material from what I've read about it has been creatively impotent for the most part and doesn't sound like it would be worth the time investment required to sit through it in its entirety (Though I may eventually watch the Goku Black arc someday out of curiosity. Ditto for the Broly movie since it sounds like there's at least something to that as well).

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:05 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:42 am
No, I am not.

Aside from Zamasu, who genuinely represents something new Dragon Ball has never had (a main antagonist whose motives stem from ideology), this new material from what I've read about it has been creatively impotent for the most part and doesn't sound like it would be worth the time investment required to sit through it in its entirety (Though I may eventually watch the Goku Black arc someday out of curiosity. Ditto for the Broly movie since it sounds like there's at least something to that as well).
Though I believe an arc should be watched from start to finish, if you already know the general outcome of the Future Trunks arc you can just watch it from episode 47 until 61 (after that the arc was rushed). Since you like the concept of Zamasu, that's also when his character truly shines and you get to explore his inner turmoil.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:29 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:05 pm
Majin Buu wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:42 am
No, I am not.

Aside from Zamasu, who genuinely represents something new Dragon Ball has never had (a main antagonist whose motives stem from ideology), this new material from what I've read about it has been creatively impotent for the most part and doesn't sound like it would be worth the time investment required to sit through it in its entirety (Though I may eventually watch the Goku Black arc someday out of curiosity. Ditto for the Broly movie since it sounds like there's at least something to that as well).
Though I believe an arc should be watched from start to finish, if you already know the general outcome of the Future Trunks arc you can just watch it from episode 47 until 61 (after that the arc was rushed). Since you like the concept of Zamasu, that's also when his character truly shines and you get to explore his inner turmoil.
Plus, that means you don't suffer through the utterly abysmal ending.

Though realistically, to properly judge the arc, you do need to take it as a whole. Skipping over the parts that make it shit means that you're not really watching the arc, it's almost like you're watching a fanedit.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by omegacwa » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:31 pm

Short Answer: Yes.

Slightly longer: Still yes, but I feel like it it could have been handled much better. First it should have started after the Freeza arc. From the Champa arc on I feel like it averaged out to "pretty good". Also, Toei should have been smart enough to realize that Dragon Ball is still a hot property and invested actual time and money into it. The animation definitely evened out towards the end but it should have been of that quality from the get go. Also, despite not being based off a manga, there were still episodes that felt like filler, which is inexcusable. Some of the fights were just too quick. Spend 30 episodes building up Vegeta vs Toppo and it ends up being only half an episode long. That's a problem. I'm not saying every fight needs to be 15 episodes, but 2-3 should be default for any type of big fight (considering most of these episodes would also include cutaways to other fights or people talking).

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:34 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:31 pm
Short Answer: Yes.

Slightly longer: Still yes, but I feel like it it could have been handled much better. First it should have started after the Freeza arc. From the Champa arc on I feel like it averaged out to "pretty good". Also, Toei should have been smart enough to realize that Dragon Ball is still a hot property and invested actual time and money into it. The animation definitely evened out towards the end but it should have been of that quality from the get go. Also, despite not being based off a manga, there were still episodes that felt like filler, which is inexcusable. Some of the fights were just too quick. Spend 30 episodes building up Vegeta vs Toppo and it ends up being only half an episode long. That's a problem. I'm not saying every fight needs to be 15 episodes, but 2-3 should be default for any type of big fight (considering most of these episodes would also include cutaways to other fights or people talking).
Making the fights longer isn't the solution, that would only make the fights just as exhausting as every other part of the show, which would ruin the one thing Super has ever done remotely right. The show itself should have an actual sense of pacing. As it stands, all the non-fight stuff drags on sinfully long. And yet, at the same time, that stuff is so insubstantial, it leaves no real impact aside from "boy that took ages", and all you remember is the fight scenes, which have no context to make them have any weight beyond "that looks kinda cool".
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:06 pm

Is revival fatigue starting to set in at all?
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm

I still want more!
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Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
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19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:09 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:06 pm
Is revival fatigue starting to set in at all?
It set in for me years ago. :lol:

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by omegacwa » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:28 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:34 pm
omegacwa wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:31 pm
Short Answer: Yes.

Slightly longer: Still yes, but I feel like it it could have been handled much better. First it should have started after the Freeza arc. From the Champa arc on I feel like it averaged out to "pretty good". Also, Toei should have been smart enough to realize that Dragon Ball is still a hot property and invested actual time and money into it. The animation definitely evened out towards the end but it should have been of that quality from the get go. Also, despite not being based off a manga, there were still episodes that felt like filler, which is inexcusable. Some of the fights were just too quick. Spend 30 episodes building up Vegeta vs Toppo and it ends up being only half an episode long. That's a problem. I'm not saying every fight needs to be 15 episodes, but 2-3 should be default for any type of big fight (considering most of these episodes would also include cutaways to other fights or people talking).
Making the fights longer isn't the solution, that would only make the fights just as exhausting as every other part of the show, which would ruin the one thing Super has ever done remotely right. The show itself should have an actual sense of pacing. As it stands, all the non-fight stuff drags on sinfully long. And yet, at the same time, that stuff is so insubstantial, it leaves no real impact aside from "boy that took ages", and all you remember is the fight scenes, which have no context to make them have any weight beyond "that looks kinda cool".
I agree. I'm not demanding the fights be longer necessarily, just that if a fight is built up it shouldn't be only 5 minutes long, unless that five minutes is amazingly well handled. I definitely advocate for quality over quantity.
ABED wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:06 pm
Is revival fatigue starting to set in at all?
A little. I'm certainly not as into it but that's mainly because all that's going on is the manga and heroes. I look forward to the manga every month but I kinda fell off of heroes. I should probably catch up with it.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:38 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:29 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:05 pm
Majin Buu wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:42 am
No, I am not.

Aside from Zamasu, who genuinely represents something new Dragon Ball has never had (a main antagonist whose motives stem from ideology), this new material from what I've read about it has been creatively impotent for the most part and doesn't sound like it would be worth the time investment required to sit through it in its entirety (Though I may eventually watch the Goku Black arc someday out of curiosity. Ditto for the Broly movie since it sounds like there's at least something to that as well).
Though I believe an arc should be watched from start to finish, if you already know the general outcome of the Future Trunks arc you can just watch it from episode 47 until 61 (after that the arc was rushed). Since you like the concept of Zamasu, that's also when his character truly shines and you get to explore his inner turmoil.
Plus, that means you don't suffer through the utterly abysmal ending.

Though realistically, to properly judge the arc, you do need to take it as a whole. Skipping over the parts that make it shit means that you're not really watching the arc, it's almost like you're watching a fanedit.
Which ties into my point about the second part of the arc being rushed. The ideas were all very good, sadly they were executed in a questionable way. 6 episodes to wrap up such a major arc were not enough, really. It's kind of ridiculous that they tried to lump so many important fights in episode 66. That's the main criticism I have for the arc.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:14 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:38 pm
Which ties into my point about the second part of the arc being rushed. The ideas were all very good, sadly they were executed in a questionable way. 6 episodes to wrap up such a major arc were not enough, really. It's kind of ridiculous that they tried to lump so many important fights in episode 66. That's the main criticism I have for the arc.
1. Are they good ideas, though? Really?
I mean, we're working with an arc where the entire premise is "Evil Goku makes Future Trunks's timeline shitty again because he's a god who hates people."
That's a really dumb idea. Could be done well, but it's not an inherently interesting or clever idea.

2. Six episodes is plenty for a well-paced show. Do it right, and you can wrap up some stories in a single episode. Honestly, this storyline didn't even need six. The story it was telling in those six episodes was incredibly padded out.
Thing is, they weren't on any limitations about how long that ending had to be. They could have made that story as long or as short as they wanted. And their ending ended up taking up six episodes of time.

3. The problem was never how long it took to end the story; it was always the fact that it's telling a really crap ending.
Again, the ending of the arc was:
And, for all the faux-epic presentation of these events, everything is essentially reset to how it was before the arc happened.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:37 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:09 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:06 pm
Is revival fatigue starting to set in at all?
It set in for me years ago. :lol:
Agreed, and I'm not even just talking about DB's revival. I'm a little tired of all the revivals we've been getting because few of them are good. Even if they are, it feels like the stories are spinning their wheels or the magic is gone. The more of them I see, the more I'm convinced that unless the story didn't get a proper conclusion, no series should be brought back.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:24 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:38 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:29 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:05 pm


Though I believe an arc should be watched from start to finish, if you already know the general outcome of the Future Trunks arc you can just watch it from episode 47 until 61 (after that the arc was rushed). Since you like the concept of Zamasu, that's also when his character truly shines and you get to explore his inner turmoil.
Plus, that means you don't suffer through the utterly abysmal ending.

Though realistically, to properly judge the arc, you do need to take it as a whole. Skipping over the parts that make it shit means that you're not really watching the arc, it's almost like you're watching a fanedit.
Which ties into my point about the second part of the arc being rushed. The ideas were all very good, sadly they were executed in a questionable way. 6 episodes to wrap up such a major arc were not enough, really. It's kind of ridiculous that they tried to lump so many important fights in episode 66. That's the main criticism I have for the arc.

I agree. The ending of the TOP arc felt rushed as well. Maybe it was less bothersome there because it had been dragging on and there wasn't much of a story going on. The TOP arc ultimately got so long (and there was some rather questionable filler in between the Zamasu and TOP arc), it's sad they didn't use some of that time to give the Zamasu arc a proper finish.

I still think the Zamasu arc was pretty entertaining, as the main villain was the most complex written antagonist in DB-history, and the story had some truely surprising plot turns. A shame how it was all wrapped up at the end.

Despite the ending, i still think the arc itself added something to the franchise that's worth to remember.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:08 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:24 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:38 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:29 pm


Plus, that means you don't suffer through the utterly abysmal ending.

Though realistically, to properly judge the arc, you do need to take it as a whole. Skipping over the parts that make it shit means that you're not really watching the arc, it's almost like you're watching a fanedit.
Which ties into my point about the second part of the arc being rushed. The ideas were all very good, sadly they were executed in a questionable way. 6 episodes to wrap up such a major arc were not enough, really. It's kind of ridiculous that they tried to lump so many important fights in episode 66. That's the main criticism I have for the arc.

I agree. The ending of the TOP arc felt rushed as well. Maybe it was less bothersome there because it had been dragging on and there wasn't much of a story going on. The TOP arc ultimately got so long (and there was some rather questionable filler in between the Zamasu and TOP arc), it's sad they didn't use some of that time to give the Zamasu arc a proper finish.

I still think the Zamasu arc was pretty entertaining, as the main villain was the most complex written antagonist in DB-history, and the story had some truely surprising plot turns. A shame how it was all wrapped up at the end.

Despite the ending, i still think the arc itself added something to the franchise that's worth to remember.
I wouldn’t call Zamasu “complex”. He wasn’t really much different from your typical Dragon Ball villain. He was still sadistic, petty, arrogant, and threw a tantrum when things stopped going his way. The only thing that really sets him apart from other Dragon Ball villains is that he believes he’s the good guy, even though he clearly isn’t.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:15 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:08 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:24 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:38 pm


Which ties into my point about the second part of the arc being rushed. The ideas were all very good, sadly they were executed in a questionable way. 6 episodes to wrap up such a major arc were not enough, really. It's kind of ridiculous that they tried to lump so many important fights in episode 66. That's the main criticism I have for the arc.

I agree. The ending of the TOP arc felt rushed as well. Maybe it was less bothersome there because it had been dragging on and there wasn't much of a story going on. The TOP arc ultimately got so long (and there was some rather questionable filler in between the Zamasu and TOP arc), it's sad they didn't use some of that time to give the Zamasu arc a proper finish.

I still think the Zamasu arc was pretty entertaining, as the main villain was the most complex written antagonist in DB-history, and the story had some truely surprising plot turns. A shame how it was all wrapped up at the end.

Despite the ending, i still think the arc itself added something to the franchise that's worth to remember.
I wouldn’t call Zamasu “complex”. He wasn’t really much different from your typical Dragon Ball villain. He was still sadistic, petty, arrogant, and threw a tantrum when things stopped going his way. The only thing that really sets him apart from other Dragon Ball villains is that he believes he’s the good guy, even though he clearly isn’t.
Which is what makes him unique. Being able to see how and why he became a villain is interesting, because usually in Dragon Ball when the villains appear on screen they are already fully evil. Plus I think his motivations were pretty interesting. While his methods were obviously evil, I think he brought up interesting concerns regarding the structure of the multiverse and the utility of mortals. Seeing him debate with Gowasu on the subject of justice was equally interesting. I especially adore the symbolism surrounding his character. How the tea is no longer clear when he is clouded by doubt, the petals turning red to represent him succumbing to his darker desires, his body literally falling apart as his mind is breaking. I think all around he was a solid villain with interesting motivations, and I wouldn't mind seeing him return (so long as he gets treated better, and not shafted completely like in Heroes). If anything, I believe his backstory could have been fleshed-out a little more, but that's about it.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:23 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:15 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:08 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:24 pm



I agree. The ending of the TOP arc felt rushed as well. Maybe it was less bothersome there because it had been dragging on and there wasn't much of a story going on. The TOP arc ultimately got so long (and there was some rather questionable filler in between the Zamasu and TOP arc), it's sad they didn't use some of that time to give the Zamasu arc a proper finish.

I still think the Zamasu arc was pretty entertaining, as the main villain was the most complex written antagonist in DB-history, and the story had some truely surprising plot turns. A shame how it was all wrapped up at the end.

Despite the ending, i still think the arc itself added something to the franchise that's worth to remember.
I wouldn’t call Zamasu “complex”. He wasn’t really much different from your typical Dragon Ball villain. He was still sadistic, petty, arrogant, and threw a tantrum when things stopped going his way. The only thing that really sets him apart from other Dragon Ball villains is that he believes he’s the good guy, even though he clearly isn’t.
Which is what makes him unique. Being able to see how and why he became a villain is interesting, because usually in Dragon Ball when the villains appear on screen they are already fully evil. Plus I think his motivations were pretty interesting. While his methods were obviously evil, I think he brought up interesting concerns regarding the structure of the multiverse and the utility of mortals. Seeing him debate with Gowasu on the subject of justice was equally interesting. I think all around he was a solid villain with interesting motivations, and I wouldn't mind seeing him return (so long as he gets treated better, and not shafted completely like in Heroes). If anything, I believe he could have been fleshed-out a little more, but that's about it.
I personally think Zamasu would’ve worked better as a villain if he was more morally grey. Instead of him laughing and boasting about how great and superior he is, he should’ve been shown questioning his own actions and displaying some remorse over killing his fellow Gods. We didn’t get any of that, though. The only real impression I got from him was that he was a privileged and narcissistic megalomaniac who wanted to rebuild the multiverse in his image. As it stands, I’d put him about on the level of a character like Baby. I wouldn’t call him a bad villain, but he still fell into much of the same conventions that Dragon Ball villains typically fall into.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:38 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:23 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:15 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:08 pm


I wouldn’t call Zamasu “complex”. He wasn’t really much different from your typical Dragon Ball villain. He was still sadistic, petty, arrogant, and threw a tantrum when things stopped going his way. The only thing that really sets him apart from other Dragon Ball villains is that he believes he’s the good guy, even though he clearly isn’t.
Which is what makes him unique. Being able to see how and why he became a villain is interesting, because usually in Dragon Ball when the villains appear on screen they are already fully evil. Plus I think his motivations were pretty interesting. While his methods were obviously evil, I think he brought up interesting concerns regarding the structure of the multiverse and the utility of mortals. Seeing him debate with Gowasu on the subject of justice was equally interesting. I think all around he was a solid villain with interesting motivations, and I wouldn't mind seeing him return (so long as he gets treated better, and not shafted completely like in Heroes). If anything, I believe he could have been fleshed-out a little more, but that's about it.
I personally think Zamasu would’ve worked better as a villain if he was more morally grey. Instead of him laughing and boasting about how great and superior he is, he should’ve been shown questioning his own actions and displaying some remorse over killing his fellow Gods. We didn’t get any of that, though. The only real impression I got from him was that he was a privileged and narcissistic megalomaniac who wanted to rebuild the multiverse in his image. As it stands, I’d put him about on the level of a character like Baby. I wouldn’t call him a bad villain, but he still fell into much of the same conventions that Dragon Ball villains typically fall into.
I think the manga handled this aspect better. Gowasu believed that Zamasu could still be redeemed, but when the two hugged, Zamasu stabbed his master and told him that he wouldn't hesitate to kill him a third time (basically this is the point of "no return" for Zamasu, when the audience really understands that he is simply too far gone for redemption). I think that was a very well-written moment that truly hightlighted how consumed Zamasu was by his twisted idea of justice (he didn't feel remorse for them anymore, he saw them as fools who just let evil run rampart across the cosmos). I think the anime should have included a similar moment to really drive home the idea that Zamasu is simply too far gone to even consider proving some empathy for his peers.

But to be honest I think Zamasu when he was still an apprentice could be considered morally grey. I think the anime conveyed very well the idea that he was conflicted, that he didn't really know what to do. He was fractured between his desire to learn from Gowasu and respect him, and his strong sense of justice. And in the end his desire to remove the "root" of what he considered "evil" was too strong.

What I think could have been done better is flesh-out his backstory, and I say this for a very simple reason. We know he had already witnessed many examples like Planet Babari, so show some of them. I think this would have greatly improved the idea that some people currently have of this character (that he turned made just because he saw one planet full of barbarians).
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Majin Buu » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:45 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:05 pm
Though I believe an arc should be watched from start to finish, if you already know the general outcome of the Future Trunks arc you can just watch it from episode 47 until 61 (after that the arc was rushed). Since you like the concept of Zamasu, that's also when his character truly shines and you get to explore his inner turmoil.
If/when I get around to that, I intend to watch the entire arc, not parts of it. I don't feel like I could accurately judge the arc's quality if I didn't watch the whole thing.
Last edited by Majin Buu on Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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