All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

[sunsetshimmer]

No. I'm glad Battle of Gods happened, but there is unbelievably enormous quality gap between this movie and everything that was released after it. I rather not have anything than have such low quality content that focuses on recoloring stuff and bringing back old characters.
Moro arc is basically the first sign of original stuff since BoG and i look forward to how it ends because it's pretty interesting arc so far.

DBH was popular anyway. It would probably stop at some time due to lack of new content and we wouldn't get SDBH anime, but no one takes it seriously anyway.
Other games? None of the games in past years had me interested.

So yeah, BoG was a really good movie, but RoF turned entire god ki concept into a joke and DBS turned everything into a joke.

[Dbzfan94]

Is revival fatigue starting to set in at all?

It set in for me years ago.

Agreed, and I'm not even just talking about DB's revival. I'm a little tired of all the revivals we've been getting because few of them are good. Even if they are, it feels like the stories are spinning their wheels or the magic is gone. The more of them I see, the more I'm convinced that unless the story didn't get a proper conclusion, no series should be brought back.

Couldn’t agree more

[ABED]

Nostalgia is one hell of a drug. The reason so many of these revivals are happening is because fans are chasing the high they felt when they were exposed to something the first time, but it works to ever decreasing returns

[Bansho64]

Overall, yeah, totally.

In terms of the content we've gotten since, it's a mixed bag for me. I like parts of it. I enjoy BOG and Broly is a cool watch. Some of the Super scenes are pretty cool too. And overall, it's been great to see the community super active, especially during Super's run. But there are parts where I feel, in time, they won't age well. Or just don't appeal to me personally. The Super anime as a whole, certain choices made for the franchise, ROF, etc.

Nostalgia is one hell of a drug. The reason so many of these revivals are happening is because fans are chasing the high they felt when they were exposed to something the first time, but it works to ever decreasing returns

I have to agree with this. Every once in a while, a franchise can be brought back and add some very satisfying and good stories to the mix. The Creed films are a very good example of this IMO. Definitely one of the better ones.

But tbh, that's one very good seed in a jar full of mediocre mixed with bad. Terminator Dark Fate is probably the biggest example of this. It's not especially a bad film in my eyes. It's not even the worst Terminator sequel by a long shot. But, ultimately, it's just so boring. A retread of things we've seen in two other movies that are infinitely better than it.

[ABED]

Sad, angry internet fans are raging over the new Terminator "adding politics" into the film. My issue is that it adds nothing new beyond updated socio-political issues. I somewhat enjoyed it, but it doesn't do anything fundamentally new and I've grown bored of the retreads. After averting Judgment Day, there's nowhere to go.

I think Creed worked because it took the characters and the story forward. Rocky isn't dealing with the same issues he did when he was in his prime. That's a big issue. DB is the opposite. Super is same song different verse. Where do they end it - with Goku becoming the strongest or do they end it with him back to where he was at the end of DBZ - happy that there are more mountains to climb? At least GT's ending felt very different from Toriyama's.

If BoG had been it, then it would've been a fun nostalgia filled one off. It's spending one more time with old friends while giving us things we hadn't seen before, but no, they decided to keep going. I understand that by looking at the number of posts I've made on this subject one could infer that I'm upset about it or I hate revivals, but I don't. I'm mostly bored. I've decided to embrace Quentin Tarantino's philosophy of never hating a movie. Even bad ones aren't worth the negativity. It's a waste of time, even the most cynically made "corporate cash grabs" aren't worth hating. Even if they aren't the entertaining kind of bad, it can still be a worthwhile learning experiences. I have no intention of being filmmaker, but thinking about bad movies or TV shows and issues like how they went wrong is always worth the effort.

[omegacwa]

Sad, angry internet fans are raging over the new Terminator "adding politics" into the film. My issue is that it adds nothing new beyond updated socio-political issues. I somewhat enjoyed it, but it doesn't do anything fundamentally new and I've grown bored of the retreads. After averting Judgment Day, there's nowhere to go.

The thing with terminator is that there are a lot of interesting stories you could theoretically tell about a future over run by evil robot endoskeletons controlled by a super intelligent AI, but the studio is too scared to try something different. I remember, even as a little kid who saw Terminator 2 when it was brand new, thinking a movie all about the first few minutes of that movie would be awesome. A grizzled old John Connor leading the resistance against the robot army. It could play out like a world war 2 drama. They kinda tried that with salvation but somehow still got it wrong. How hard could it be to make that movie? The look and feel was already set up with the flashbacks (flashforwards?) in both Terminator and Terminator 2.

I haven't seen Dark Fate but from what I heard it's just a dull retread. And from what I understand people, well, real people not trolls, aren't mad because "ItS AlL GiRls nOW!" but because they kill a central character and make a point to say that the new character is their replacement, which basically shits on the old movies.

[8000 Saiyan]

I haven't seen Dark Fate, but I don't plan to. I'm in the camp that they should have let the franchise end with the second movie. But hey, when a movie that's really good that makes people interested in its concepts and themes, they want more movies. I'll say this right now, the Alien franchise ending with Aliens would have been also been a much better decision than to make two more movies. Just have Ripley adopt Newt and marry Hicks with Bishop as the butler. The prequels, fuck' em too.

[ABED]

Sad, angry internet fans are raging over the new Terminator "adding politics" into the film. My issue is that it adds nothing new beyond updated socio-political issues. I somewhat enjoyed it, but it doesn't do anything fundamentally new and I've grown bored of the retreads. After averting Judgment Day, there's nowhere to go.

The thing with terminator is that there are a lot of interesting stories you could theoretically tell about a future over run by evil robot endoskeletons controlled by a super intelligent AI, but the studio is too scared to try something different. I remember, even as a little kid who saw Terminator 2 when it was brand new, thinking a movie all about the first few minutes of that movie would be awesome. A grizzled old John Connor leading the resistance against the robot army. It could play out like a world war 2 drama. They kinda tried that with salvation but somehow still got it wrong. How hard could it be to make that movie? The look and feel was already set up with the flashbacks (flashforwards?) in both Terminator and Terminator 2.

I haven't seen Dark Fate but from what I heard it's just a dull retread. And from what I understand people, well, real people not trolls, aren't mad because "ItS AlL GiRls nOW!" but because they kill a central character and make a point to say that the new character is their replacement, which basically shits on the old movies.

The future is all set up and backstory (even if it is set in the future) and I feel the same way about it as I do the multiverse in DB. I don't care to see it explored as it's beside the point. The story isn't about that. The things that really resonated with people are the themes and characters. After ending T2 by saying "there is no fate, and there's a possibility we can be better to each other" there's nowhere else to go with it that doesn't either spoil that ending or reiterate it. The best idea for a new direction would be following Carl - a robot that becomes more and more human over time. I would recommend the new movie to watch once. There's a lot of really good stuff in it, like the performances from Arnold, Hamilton, and Davis. Like Super, it isn't lacking for good ideas, but it's buried under a mountain of uninteresting stuff.

Killing off that character doesn't shit on the old ones. They still exist, just like the new DB material doesn't crap on the old stuff. It's still out there to read and watch. It's just kinda boring.

[omegacwa]

Killing off that character doesn't shit on the old ones. They still exist, just like the new DB material doesn't crap on the old stuff. It's still out there to read and watch. It's just kinda boring.

I think people are annoyed just because this seems to be a trend right now in Hollywood where they take something old, make a new version and instead of honoring the old one they market it as "THE NEW AND IMPROVED! IT'S BETTER AND IF YOU DON'T THINK SO YOU ARE A (INSERT)"

Amazingly I haven't seen this about Terminator Dark Fate, which might because I've heard Davis is excellent.

[ABED]

Killing off that character doesn't shit on the old ones. They still exist, just like the new DB material doesn't crap on the old stuff. It's still out there to read and watch. It's just kinda boring.

I think people are annoyed just because this seems to be a trend right now in Hollywood where they take something old, make a new version and instead of honoring the old one they market it as "THE NEW AND IMPROVED! IT'S BETTER AND IF YOU DON'T THINK SO YOU ARE A (INSERT)"

Amazingly I haven't seen this about Terminator Dark Fate, which might because I've heard Davis is excellent.

I don't get that at all. If anything things are written and marketed in such a way that's almost too deferential to the originals. It's like they are made by "member berries.

[omegacwa]

Killing off that character doesn't shit on the old ones. They still exist, just like the new DB material doesn't crap on the old stuff. It's still out there to read and watch. It's just kinda boring.

I think people are annoyed just because this seems to be a trend right now in Hollywood where they take something old, make a new version and instead of honoring the old one they market it as "THE NEW AND IMPROVED! IT'S BETTER AND IF YOU DON'T THINK SO YOU ARE A (INSERT)"

Amazingly I haven't seen this about Terminator Dark Fate, which might because I've heard Davis is excellent.

I don't get that at all. If anything things are written and marketed in such a way that's almost too deferential to the originals. It's like they are made by "member berries.

I've definitely seen that as well.

To move this back on topic I certainly feel that way about super. While I really enjoyed watching it I feel like it leaned a little too hard on Nostalgia instead of trying to move the show forward. There are things about Super that I greatly enjoyed, namely Vegeta being secondary main character and often times being put on equal or greater footing than Goku, but I also understand that the tournament of power basically "reanimated" scenes from DBZ and DB for the sole purpose of instilling nostalgia in the viewer.

[ABED]

I've definitely seen that as well.

To move this back on topic I certainly feel that way about super. While I really enjoyed watching it I feel like it leaned a little too hard on Nostalgia instead of trying to move the show forward. There are things about Super that I greatly enjoyed, namely Vegeta being secondary main character and often times being put on equal or greater footing than Goku, but I also understand that the tournament of power basically "reanimated" scenes from DBZ and DB for the sole purpose of instilling nostalgia in the viewer.

I'm not sure there is a way forward. DB has covered so much ground already. What is there left to uncover about the main characters?

[Mister_Popo]

I honestly feel sorry for the people than cannot enjoy the new content, i really do. I can understand it's somehow more of the same and it's not all as good, but i can't really understand (it could be me) how you can fondly dislike Super, when it basically has the same ingredients as the original series. There is some division between fans concerning Super. But if you see some overall scores on the internet, the tendency more or less leads more towards positivity. At Myanimelist for instance 177 679 users voted on Super, with an average vote of 7,6/10. That's not so bad. Yes, there are people that are very negative, but it's definitely not the majority.

Even if you'd not like it, it still doesn't devaluate anything that there has been before. The original anime run was that extented one could speak there was revival after revival already in the 90s. It's not a 'problem' (if it truely is a problem) that exists now alone.
And even then in the 90s, you could choose what DB content you accepted and what not (with or without GT / movies ...).
If you don't like new revival-content, there is an great offer new series coming out on different streaming devices. So you don't 'have' to watch DB. There is never a problem. If you don't like to watch or appreciate new DB-storylines, it's fine, why should one person who happens to dislike it, decide for other fans that new content "should no longer be made"? Ain't that a bit one-sided? Again you can always choose to ignore and take the original manga as the definitive story.

Yes, there are in a sense too many revivals, but that doesn't stop me from in effect enjoying new stuff, without obliging myself to like everything that is being thrown at us. I really think Toriyama still has some some intresting stories to tell, adding extra value to the franchise. If i truely didn't believe that anymore, it would no longer make any sense for me to stay actively invested.
It's not that the original run was like yesterday. We have been waiting a long time for new stories made by the original creator. I've decided to make the best of what we are getting as long as possible, and with that i am prepared to stay relatively positive towards without having to lose my sense of criticism.

Dragon Ball is just innocent entertainment, i don't expect too much from it in the sense there are other series with deeper and more layered storylines. Dragon Ball would no longer be Dragon Ball if it tried to be something it does not represent.
If a new series were to be made and have good animation and characterization, original coherent stories without too much rebooting of old characters and powerscaling that makes sense, i'm all in for it as long as it lasts.

[ABED]

it basically has the same ingredients as the original series.

Same ingredients, but not put together by chef(s) as good as before. I does bug me that we can't leave stories alone and wonder if time couldn't be better spent by everyone, both fans and creators alike on something else. Instead of finding new stories to tell, they're busy revisiting a story that already had an ending and there's nowhere else to go.

[Rory]

I honestly feel sorry for the people than cannot enjoy the new content, i really do. I can understand it's somehow more of the same and it's not all as good, but i can't really understand (it could be me) how you can fondly dislike Super, when it basically has the same ingredients as the original series. There is some division between fans concerning Super. But if you see some overall scores on the internet, the tendency more or less leads more towards positivity. At Myanimelist for instance 177 679 users voted on Super, with an average vote of 7,6/10. That's not so bad. Yes, there are people that are very negative, but it's definitely not the majority.

Do you read what people's grievances are? I don't really want to talk about why I dislike Super, as it's a beaten horse, but I genuinely feel like if at this point if you don't get it, you're not willing to get it. People have made it really clear what the problems are, and it's okay to disagree with them.

Regarding the 'just shut it out' points, I am with you on that. Fiction is fiction, and head-canons are fine, however:

Dragon Ball is just innocent entertainment, i don't expect too much from it in the sense there are other series with deeper and more layered storylines. Dragon Ball would no longer be Dragon Ball if it tried to be something it does not represent.

Saying Dragon Ball is just innocent entertainment is reductive, and frankly untrue. Dragon Ball has always been about something, whether it's the 20th Budokai, which was about the next generation showcasing that they're going to continue improving, or the Piccolo arc, where Goku is able to develop into a young man not just physically, but through channelling his raw emotions , Dragon Ball is about stuff. Each arc sees characters grow, each arc tends to have overarching themes (regardless of their 'depth'). Not all of them land, and not all of them contribute to the story in equal measure, but it looks like they at least have goals, and aren't just being made as "lol whatever just enjoy it". Toriyama wings it a lot, but I think he tends to belittle himself as a means of comedy (with a healthy dose of that Japanese humility). The guy wrote Dragon Ball as a story, and I can't read the Red Ribbon Army arc and see 'just' entertainment. I see great characters worth caring about. A story worth continuing. Frankly I see art. Art isn't a dirty pretentious word, you can use it for children's manga, and that's what I see.

Personally, I'd have rather not had the revival happen because it makes the conversation regarding one of my favourite franchises obtuse and frustrating. I also feel no guilt for that (forgive me if I'm mistaken, but it does seem that your post implies there should be an element of guilt for disliking the revival), as if it didn't happen, people would've just enjoyed other stuff in its place.

[Mister_Popo]

it basically has the same ingredients as the original series.

Same ingredients, but not put together by chef(s) as good as before. I does bug me that we can't leave stories alone and wonder if time couldn't be better spent by everyone, both fans and creators alike on something else. Instead of finding new stories to tell, they're busy revisiting a story that already had an ending and there's nowhere else to go.

Well, to be honest with you, i'm not entirely satisfied with the EOZ without Super existing, and definitely not after Toriyama altered it with the new Kanzenban-edition. I do feel Toriyama wrote it with the idea of the story not being finished yet. The plot is still to open, Goku still wants to grow, Vegeta still wants to fight Goku and match him in power, Uub clearly has a role to play and Goku has a role to play as Uub's teacher in the further story. It does not feel like a definitive ending to me.
It all feels too 'open' for being that. I do hope the new "canon" storyline actually goes past the EOZ so at least the "Toriyama involved part" can get a truely conclusive ending.

About DB needing a conclusion ... Could we just state in that case Goku vs Piccolo could have been a satisfying ending as well? Even more conclusive in a way than the EOZ. Goku had matured as a person and as a fighter after beeting Piccolo. It had already covered 122 anime episodes and 161 manga chapters up to that point. Wasn't that enough already? Goku had already broken to his limits several times. It added nothing new to the story he kept on doing it with Kaioken, SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3 ... later on in DBZ. Despite that fact, people grew to love the story even more during DBZ.

[Mister_Popo]

I honestly feel sorry for the people than cannot enjoy the new content, i really do. I can understand it's somehow more of the same and it's not all as good, but i can't really understand (it could be me) how you can fondly dislike Super, when it basically has the same ingredients as the original series. There is some division between fans concerning Super. But if you see some overall scores on the internet, the tendency more or less leads more towards positivity. At Myanimelist for instance 177 679 users voted on Super, with an average vote of 7,6/10. That's not so bad. Yes, there are people that are very negative, but it's definitely not the majority.

Do you read what people's grievances are? I don't really want to talk about why I dislike Super, as it's a beaten horse, but I genuinely feel like if at this point if you don't get it, you're not willing to get it. People have made it really clear what the problems are, and it's okay to disagree with them.

Regarding the 'just shut it out' points, I am with you on that. Fiction is fiction, and head-canons are fine, however:

Dragon Ball is just innocent entertainment, i don't expect too much from it in the sense there are other series with deeper and more layered storylines. Dragon Ball would no longer be Dragon Ball if it tried to be something it does not represent.

Saying Dragon Ball is just innocent entertainment is reductive, and frankly untrue. Dragon Ball has always been about something, whether it's the 20th Budokai, which was about the next generation showcasing that they're going to continue improving, or the Piccolo arc, where Goku is able to develop into a young man not just physically, but through channelling his raw emotions , Dragon Ball is about stuff. Each arc sees characters grow, each arc tends to have overarching themes (regardless of their 'depth'). Not all of them land, and not all of them contribute to the story in equal measure, but it looks like they at least have goals, and aren't just being made as "lol whatever just enjoy it". Toriyama wings it a lot, but I think he tends to belittle himself as a means of comedy (with a healthy dose of that Japanese humility). The guy wrote Dragon Ball as a story, and I can't read the Red Ribbon Army arc and see 'just' entertainment. I see great characters worth caring about. A story worth continuing. Frankly I see art. Art isn't a dirty pretentious word, you can use it for children's manga, and that's what I see.

Personally, I'd have rather not had the revival happen because it makes the conversation regarding one of my favourite franchises obtuse and frustrating. I also feel no guilt for that (forgive me if I'm mistaken, but it does seem that your post implies there should be an element of guilt for disliking the revival), as if it didn't happen, people would've just enjoyed other stuff in its place.

But i do understand the grievances. I truely do. If you had read my posts concerning this on the matter thoroughly, you'd understand i do want this flaws to be taken seriously by the franchise-directors to further optimize the product. I don't understand why you depict me as being ignorant on this. I haven't said people cannot state negative opinions about Super. I only pointed out a lot of people apparently did find the first round somehow entertaining altogether, despite the flaws. Look at the scores. The utterly negative appreciation does exist, but it does not appear to be generalized.

I haven't said DB isn't truely unique and isn't about something in any way. It is. When it would however evolve into Seinen-like stuff or very complex storylines, i think it's not DB anymore. Dragon Ball should have quality storylines, but not be overly complex and remain somehow lighthearted. That's only what i meant with 'it shouldn't try to be something that it does not represent'.

[ABED]

it basically has the same ingredients as the original series.

Same ingredients, but not put together by chef(s) as good as before. I does bug me that we can't leave stories alone and wonder if time couldn't be better spent by everyone, both fans and creators alike on something else. Instead of finding new stories to tell, they're busy revisiting a story that already had an ending and there's nowhere else to go.

Well, to be honest with you, i'm not entirely satisfied with the EOZ without Super existing, and definitely not after Toriyama altered it with the new Kanzenban-edition. I do feel Toriyama wrote it with the idea of the story not being finished yet. The plot is still to open, Goku still wants to grow, Vegeta still wants to fight Goku and match him in power, Uub clearly has a role to play and Goku has a role to play as Uub's teacher in the further story. It does not feel like a definitive ending to me.
It all feels too 'open' for being that. I do hope the new "canon" storyline actually goes past the EOZ so at least the "Toriyama involved part" can get a truely conclusive ending.

About DB needing a conclusion ... Could we just state in that case Goku vs Piccolo could have been a satisfying ending as well? Even more conclusive in a way than the EOZ. Goku had matured as a person and as a fighter after beeting Piccolo. It had already covered 122 anime episodes and 161 manga chapters up to that point. Wasn't that enough already? Goku had already broken to his limits several times. It added nothing new to the story he kept on doing it with Kaioken, SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3 ... later on in DBZ. Despite that fact, people grew to love the story even more during DBZ.

The plot is most definitely not open. All the plot threads are tied off. Goku wants to grow and that's the point. He always wants to grow and for the forseeable future, he will. We don't need to see that. It's a happy ending that brings his story to a great conclusion. Uub's role is mostly a thematic device. He represents the mountains he Goku has yet to climb as well as someone Goku can teach. That's not something we need to watch. Sure, DBZ did add a lot and people loved it but it also added genuinely new elements, despite your claims to the contrary. It took the story to space and gave a satisfying explanation of Goku's lineage. I see where you're going with this line of thinking but it's a matter of degrees. DBS added a lot of transformations but that's on top of everything Z did, and it's working to less and less effect. And FYI, Kaio-ken is not a transformation, it's a technique.

And whether a story is just there to entertain or if there's something more at its core, is really irrelevant to whether a story should give a satisfying conclusion and call it a day. Whether art is high or low brow is irrelevant. Giving a story an conclusion gives a story shape and helps give it meaning.

[WittyUsername]

it basically has the same ingredients as the original series.

Same ingredients, but not put together by chef(s) as good as before. I does bug me that we can't leave stories alone and wonder if time couldn't be better spent by everyone, both fans and creators alike on something else. Instead of finding new stories to tell, they're busy revisiting a story that already had an ending and there's nowhere else to go.

Well, to be honest with you, i'm not entirely satisfied with the EOZ without Super existing, and definitely not after Toriyama altered it with the new Kanzenban-edition. I do feel Toriyama wrote it with the idea of the story not being finished yet. The plot is still to open, Goku still wants to grow, Vegeta still wants to fight Goku and match him in power, Uub clearly has a role to play and Goku has a role to play as Uub's teacher in the further story. It does not feel like a definitive ending to me.
It all feels too 'open' for being that. I do hope the new "canon" storyline actually goes past the EOZ so at least the "Toriyama involved part" can get a truely conclusive ending.

I would argue that Super actually makes the epilogue in the manga make less sense. Back when that ending was written, the obvious implications were that Majin Boo was the most powerful opponent Goku ever fought and that things on Earth were pretty quiet after his defeat, hence why Goku was so excited about the prospect of fighting Oob. In lieu of Super, Goku’s excitement about fighting Oob just seems silly, considering that there are a ton of stronger people for him to fight, including Vegeta.

[Mister_Popo]

Same ingredients, but not put together by chef(s) as good as before. I does bug me that we can't leave stories alone and wonder if time couldn't be better spent by everyone, both fans and creators alike on something else. Instead of finding new stories to tell, they're busy revisiting a story that already had an ending and there's nowhere else to go.

Well, to be honest with you, i'm not entirely satisfied with the EOZ without Super existing, and definitely not after Toriyama altered it with the new Kanzenban-edition. I do feel Toriyama wrote it with the idea of the story not being finished yet. The plot is still to open, Goku still wants to grow, Vegeta still wants to fight Goku and match him in power, Uub clearly has a role to play and Goku has a role to play as Uub's teacher in the further story. It does not feel like a definitive ending to me.
It all feels too 'open' for being that. I do hope the new "canon" storyline actually goes past the EOZ so at least the "Toriyama involved part" can get a truely conclusive ending.

I would argue that Super actually makes the epilogue in the manga make less sense.

I don't agree. Vegeta wanting to fight Goku again is more in line with Super, not with the final arc of DBZ.
The fact Goku feels enormous potential in Uub, despite Uub was not trained at all (he couldn't even fly), does not change after Super. That does leave space for a new story to be told in my opinion.