All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:44 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:30 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:39 am
BTW, thank you for calling it a revival and not a reboot. It bugs me when people mix up the two terms.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. That has been a huge pet peeve of mine. And it's not just for revivals. It's also used in place of any remake, sequel, spinoff... everything! It drives me up the wall! Why do we even have words? "Reboot" as used in a narrative/franchise context was such a stroke of genius with such a specific meaning that it's so disheartening that it basically has no meaning anymore.
And in case anyone thinks "everyone knows what they mean by it", that's clearly not true. It often leads to a confusion about whether we are getting the same series but set sometime later or are we getting a new story but with the same premise.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:45 am

Super Broly was awesome and the Zamasu arc is one of the most interesting DB storylines, even if it had some flaws (really, they dimension hop TWICE and get their asses kicked TWICE) and the fight choreography was mostly lackluster. I didn't really like BoG but you can't say it wasn't a fresh addition. However, the fact that 1/3 of DBS is dedicated to rehashing two movies and another 1/3 is given to Yet Another Anime Tournament Arc™ is downright shameful.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Jodaku » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:53 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:11 am
No. I wish it hadn't happened. At worst, the material has been either painfully boring or actively harmful to the overall narrative. At BEST, it's an inoffensive diversion. That's not to say there haven't been things I have liked (BoG, Yamcha manga, Jaco). But at no point has it ever caused me to go, "Wow. That was so good that it makes all of this worth it," or, "Hot damn! That is so impactful that I can no longer imagine the DB universe without that addition." It all feels unnecessary. It has never managed to justify its own existence either by pushing the story forward in a meaningful way or by being extraordinarily entertaining. It's simply treading water, spinning its wheels, playing it safe and bland.

I should add that I find it interesting that DB and Star Wars have found themselves in the same boat. And I was wary of both of them. They both felt like unnecessary revivals. But while I have had plenty of problems with the new Star Wars movies, they have succeeded in causing me to utter or feel both of the above sentiments, which has been enough to cause me to forgive their faults. DB Super et al. has done nothing of the sort.
This is an interesting take that very much resonates with me, being almost as big of a Star Wars fan as I am with Dragon Ball.

I haven't been feeling the Star Wars sequel trilogy at all. In terms of the greater narrative, it feels like a big reset button has been pressed (Rebels vs Empire part 2, rather than building a new methology on top of what came before) but given with what has been presented in the Episodes VII and VIII, their existence hasn't been justified at all (the canon novel Bloodline by Claudia Gray does a really commendable job creating some of the political connective tissue between episodes VI and VIII, but none of this is even really hinted at in the films). Of course full judgement has to be reserved until Episode IX, but from what I've seen so far with the trailers, I'm not expecting much in terms of justifying the existence of the sequel trilogy and potentially undoing Episode VI's ending. Solo was also utterly unnecessary and forgettable.

One plus from the Disney era of Star Wars is Rouge One. I absolutely adore that film. It's one of my top two favourite Star Wars films. It adds so much weight to Episode IV, and just the concept of a 'war' film that added much needed shades of grey to the Galactic Civil War conflict that was missing on film in the original trilogy and execution of it all (despite the apparent troubled production) almost justifies most of the other middling Disney era Star Wars material. Almost. I'm not sure (an amazing) side-story out weighs (a so far) underwhelming sequel trilogy.

Back to Dragon Ball, since its revival, I don't think it has produced anything as worthwhile as Rogue One in terms of what it adds the overall narrative and methology but I'm less down on it's existence than I am with Star Wars. The highs have been high (Battle of Gods movie, Broly movie), but even those high points re-contextualise the original source material for the worse (Minus' story inclusion in Broly, BOG's very existence and subsequently everything that happens in the Super timeline and the apparent lack of care of in trying to cohesively tie it into the epilogue manga chapters), the opposite of Rouge One. The lows have been just as egregious as Star Wars (Future Trunks' timeline getting completely wiped out and him subsequently living in a new unaffected timeline and Gaffer's latest Dragon Ball Dissection video has only reinforced this for me). Both versions of Resurrection F are Solo levels of forgettable (the TV anime version being outright terribe, ditto for the BOG retelling) but at least Freeza's subequent role in the series in the Tournament of Power arc and Broly movie as a kinda Joker-esque agent of chaos/wildcard type of character at least makes the inclusion of the Resurrection story somewhat justifiable (tho it's arguable that Freeza could have been brought back without the Resurrection F story, and it would have been for the better). And just the fact that this rivival has for the most part has brdny set in this weird interqual space that goes against one the series' biggest strengths (time always progressing, characters consistently changing and/or aging; it brought an underlying weight and urgency to the narrative. If character x survives the latest crisis, what's the next stage of life we gonna see them in. Even when the Dragon Ball source material become repetitive and derivative of itself, the passage of time always lended the narrative a degree of freshness).

I'm overall cool with Dragon Ball's revival, but it's wasn't something that I necessarily needed and would have been content if all we had was the pre-revival material (or just the 42 volume manga and the 2 TV Specials really).

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:01 am

Cursed Lemon wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:45 am
Super Broly was awesome and the Zamasu arc is one of the most interesting DB storylines, even if it had some flaws (really, they dimension hop TWICE and get their asses kicked TWICE) and the fight choreography was mostly lackluster. I didn't really like BoG but you can't say it wasn't a fresh addition. However, the fact that 1/3 of DBS is dedicated to rehashing two movies and another 1/3 is given to Yet Another Anime Tournament Arc™ is downright shameful.
BoG wasn't fresh though at least the movie wasn't. The concept of a GoD wasn't even explored until the retelling, Beerus was basically just a strong bad guy that we have seen countless times. The film even followed the boring Z story structure of having Goku out of commission to build false tension. The world building that people constantly praise wasn't even that as all Beerus did was name drop the universes thing none of it got explored so it wasn't really world building.

BoG was about as safe as you could possibly get.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:23 am

The world building wasn't the point, nor should it be as it's boring as an end in itself. I could give a damn about the multiverse, but what it did do is end the story in a way that's thematically resonant. After having defeated what he thought was the strongest being in the universe, he finds someone who's even stronger and there's a whole bunch of other universes full of beings like him. There's always another hill to climb. If DB had left it there, it would've been worth it beyond just the fun of catching up with characters we like and meeting some new ones. Beerus isn't just another big bad. To claim he is would be to miss the details. He's not out a monster nor is he a power luster. He's out to destroy Earth because it's his job. Then there's a self aware quality about him that I find endearing.

I wish they would've left it at that.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:52 am

Well, BoG is good and a great comeback for the series. It also helped breathe life into the franchise (even though it was never really dead) by exploring new grounds with the God of Destruction, Universes and Super Saiyan God. Jaco also shows Toriyama can still come up with a good story.

On the other hand Minus, Resurrection F, and most of Super are embarrassments in terms of writing.

So overall... no, not really.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:34 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:30 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:39 am
BTW, thank you for calling it a revival and not a reboot. It bugs me when people mix up the two terms.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. That has been a huge pet peeve of mine. And it's not just for revivals. It's also used in place of any remake, sequel, spinoff... everything! It drives me up the wall! Why do we even have words? "Reboot" as used in a narrative/franchise context was such a stroke of genius with such a specific meaning that it's so disheartening that it basically has no meaning anymore.
I'm exactly the same way, especially regarding the word "Remaster" when used in place of remake. Under the current definition, a "Remaster" can mean both this and this!

My take on "remaster" terminology:

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:50 pm

Jodaku wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:53 am
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:11 am
No. I wish it hadn't happened. At worst, the material has been either painfully boring or actively harmful to the overall narrative. At BEST, it's an inoffensive diversion. That's not to say there haven't been things I have liked (BoG, Yamcha manga, Jaco). But at no point has it ever caused me to go, "Wow. That was so good that it makes all of this worth it," or, "Hot damn! That is so impactful that I can no longer imagine the DB universe without that addition." It all feels unnecessary. It has never managed to justify its own existence either by pushing the story forward in a meaningful way or by being extraordinarily entertaining. It's simply treading water, spinning its wheels, playing it safe and bland.

I should add that I find it interesting that DB and Star Wars have found themselves in the same boat. And I was wary of both of them. They both felt like unnecessary revivals. But while I have had plenty of problems with the new Star Wars movies, they have succeeded in causing me to utter or feel both of the above sentiments, which has been enough to cause me to forgive their faults. DB Super et al. has done nothing of the sort.
This is an interesting take that very much resonates with me, being almost as big of a Star Wars fan as I am with Dragon Ball.

I haven't been feeling the Star Wars sequel trilogy at all. In terms of the greater narrative, it feels like a big reset button has been pressed (Rebels vs Empire part 2, rather than building a new methology on top of what came before) but given with what has been presented in the Episodes VII and VIII, their existence hasn't been justified at all (the canon novel Bloodline by Claudia Gray does a really commendable job creating some of the political connective tissue between episodes VI and VIII, but none of this is even really hinted at in the films). Of course full judgement has to be reserved until Episode IX, but from what I've seen so far with the trailers, I'm not expecting much in terms of justifying the existence of the sequel trilogy and potentially undoing Episode VI's ending. Solo was also utterly unnecessary and forgettable.

One plus from the Disney era of Star Wars is Rouge One. I absolutely adore that film. It's one of my top two favourite Star Wars films. It adds so much weight to Episode IV, and just the concept of a 'war' film that added much needed shades of grey to the Galactic Civil War conflict that was missing on film in the original trilogy and execution of it all (despite the apparent troubled production) almost justifies most of the other middling Disney era Star Wars material. Almost. I'm not sure (an amazing) side-story out weighs (a so far) underwhelming sequel trilogy.

Back to Dragon Ball, since its revival, I don't think it has produced anything as worthwhile as Rogue One in terms of what it adds the overall narrative and methology but I'm less down on it's existence than I am with Star Wars. The highs have been high (Battle of Gods movie, Broly movie), but even those high points re-contextualise the original source material for the worse (Minus' story inclusion in Broly, BOG's very existence and subsequently everything that happens in the Super timeline and the apparent lack of care of in trying to cohesively tie it into the epilogue manga chapters), the opposite of Rouge One. The lows have been just as egregious as Star Wars (Future Trunks' timeline getting completely wiped out and him subsequently living in a new unaffected timeline and Gaffer's latest Dragon Ball Dissection video has only reinforced this for me). Both versions of Resurrection F are Solo levels of forgettable (the TV anime version being outright terribe, ditto for the BOG retelling) but at least Freeza's subequent role in the series in the Tournament of Power arc and Broly movie as a kinda Joker-esque agent of chaos/wildcard type of character at least makes the inclusion of the Resurrection story somewhat justifiable (tho it's arguable that Freeza could have been brought back without the Resurrection F story, and it would have been for the better). And just the fact that this rivival has for the most part has brdny set in this weird interqual space that goes against one the series' biggest strengths (time always progressing, characters consistently changing and/or aging; it brought an underlying weight and urgency to the narrative. If character x survives the latest crisis, what's the next stage of life we gonna see them in. Even when the Dragon Ball source material become repetitive and derivative of itself, the passage of time always lended the narrative a degree of freshness).

I'm overall cool with Dragon Ball's revival, but it's wasn't something that I necessarily needed and would have been content if all we had was the pre-revival material (or just the 42 volume manga and the 2 TV Specials really).
Meh. I’d put Rogue One on the same level of something like Ressurection ‘F’. To me, they’re both shallow fan service movies that seem like they were made for a quick buck. I don’t think either of them added anything new or interesting to the franchise. They both basically just strike me as “Member Berries: The Movie”.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:00 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:50 pm
Meh. I’d put Rogue One on the same level of something like Ressurection ‘F’. To me, they’re both shallow fan service movies that seem like they were made for a quick buck. I don’t think either of them added anything new or interesting to the franchise. They both basically just strike me as “Member Berries: The Movie”.
You spelt "Solo: A Star Wars Story" wrong.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:03 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:00 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:50 pm
Meh. I’d put Rogue One on the same level of something like Ressurection ‘F’. To me, they’re both shallow fan service movies that seem like they were made for a quick buck. I don’t think either of them added anything new or interesting to the franchise. They both basically just strike me as “Member Berries: The Movie”.
You spelt "Solo: A Star Wars Story" wrong.
I consider Rogue One to be worse than Solo. Solo at least has characters I could kind of remember, though I guess that’s a bit of a cheat, since three of them are people we were already familiar with.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:08 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:03 pm
KBABZ wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:00 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:50 pm
Meh. I’d put Rogue One on the same level of something like Ressurection ‘F’. To me, they’re both shallow fan service movies that seem like they were made for a quick buck. I don’t think either of them added anything new or interesting to the franchise. They both basically just strike me as “Member Berries: The Movie”.
You spelt "Solo: A Star Wars Story" wrong.
I consider Rogue One to be worse than Solo. Solo at least has characters I could kind of remember, though I guess that’s a bit of a cheat, since three of them are people we were already familiar with.
I love Rogue One for having a very gripping ending despite knowing exactly where the story's going; it's rare for a prequel to be able to do that.

(I can tell we're gonna argue over this disagreement so let's just leave this subject, haha)

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:23 pm

I can't get upset about any of this sort of stuff anymore. If I like it or love it, I'll gush over it, but the last time I got genuinely upset over a movie or TV show was an episode of Smallville because it was so terrible for so many reasons. Still, if it aired today, I think it would annoy me, but it wouldn't upset me. Art is important, but I think there's stuff more important that is genuinely worth getting upset over. Most of these revivals are awful, but it doesn't really bug me because there's enough original material being produced elsewhere. Too many people are making it seem like the sky is falling at least as it pertains to movies, TV, and pop culture in general.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:51 pm

Extremely happy. The revival introduced my favourite character in the franchise (Zamasu) and my favourite arc in the franchise (the Future Trunks arc). I can't wait for Super to return because I miss all the theories and speculations about the show.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:56 pm

It seems odd that your favorite character and arc doesn't happen until that late in the series.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:57 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:56 pm
It seems odd that your favorite character and arc doesn't happen until that late in the series.
I don't see what the problem is? The Future Trunks is the best arc in Dragon Ball for plenty of people.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:41 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:57 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:56 pm
It seems odd that your favorite character and arc doesn't happen until that late in the series.
I don't see what the problem is? The Future Trunks is the best arc in Dragon Ball for plenty of people.
By plenty do you mean like five? You don't find it odd for the supposed best character to appear until near the tail end of the series?
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:59 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:41 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:57 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:56 pm
It seems odd that your favorite character and arc doesn't happen until that late in the series.
I don't see what the problem is? The Future Trunks is the best arc in Dragon Ball for plenty of people.
By plenty do you mean like five? You don't find it odd for the supposed best character to appear until near the tail end of the series?
What? Zamasu/Goku Black is one of the most popular Dragon Ball villains, and no it's not strange at all. Your argument makes no sense. Just because a certain character or story is recent does not mean it cannot become your favourite.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:05 pm

I'd like to know how you came to the idea that he's one of the most popular villains, and we're not talking about a relatively new series. We're talking about a series that lasted for 10 years several decades ago, took a long break and picked up decades later. Does no one else find it weird that anyone would think the best character in the series took 30 years to arrive?
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Dr. Casey » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:32 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:05 pm
I'd like to know how you came to the idea that he's one of the most popular villains, and we're not talking about a relatively new series. We're talking about a series that lasted for 10 years several decades ago, took a long break and picked up decades later. Does no one else find it weird that anyone would think the best character in the series took 30 years to arrive?
Nah. It would be extremely weird if Zamasu was the only character/thing he enjoyed about Dragon Ball (since that would raise the question of "Why watch the 500 episodes leading up to his intro?"), but I'm guessing he enjoyed the entire series leading up to that point.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:40 pm

I'd like to know how you came to the idea that he's one of the most popular villains
The episode where he debuts had the highest ratings of Super and in google he is one of the Dragon Ball villains with the most results, including tons of fanarts and theories.
Does no one else find it weird that anyone would think the best character in the series took 30 years to arrive?
I didn't say he's the best character objectively (because there is none, it's all subjective), I said he's my favourite character, and it's not weird at all to like new characters. Plenty of characters even newer than Zamasu, like Caulifla, Kale, or Jiren also became fan-favourites.

I still don't understand what point you are trying to make. If your point is that "it's weird that your favourite character comes from Super", then it's a nonsensical point.
Nah. It would be extremely weird if Zamasu was the only character/thing he enjoyed about Dragon Ball (since that would raise the question of "Why watch the 500 episodes leading up to his intro?"), but I'm guessing he enjoyed the entire series leading up to that point.
I never said he was the only thing I ever enjoyed about Dragon Ball. I just said he's my favourite character in Dragon Ball, and he was introduced in Super, so I am glad that Super happened. I also said in that same post that I'd like Super to return because I just enjoyed all the speculations and theories about the future, even if Zamasu is not involved.
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