All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:30 pm

I get opinions changing over time, but I was never of the mind that it was meant to be something deep (for lack of a better word). It was a fun time reuniting with characters I enjoy and seeing new ones as well as introducing concepts into the show like the Kaioshins' counterparts. Fair enough, even though I don't agree.

Broly is well animated, it's not a great movie. It's too long, and the prologue adds nothing to the story, what little story there is, and the fighting isn't even that good. I don't think it's a matter of time as much as the whole approach of steeping the series in nostalgia and making it what it never used to be - a series that is stuck in a moment of time and never progressing except in the shallowest of ways. We need less of movies like Broly.

I like the idea of the different universes because it works without ever having to see them. They represent something important to Goku's character and that's way more interesting than a bunch of shallow world building.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:30 pm

As far as the prologue in Broly is concerned, the stuff involving Broly and Paragus were pretty vital to the story.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:36 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:30 pm
As far as the prologue in Broly is concerned, the stuff involving Broly and Paragus were pretty vital to the story.
That's about it. Freeza's alliance with the Saiyans and Bardock saving his son have nothing to do with the conflict between Broly and our heroes. Even then I don't think it's something the audience necessarily needs to see.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by MetaMoss » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:36 pm

I'm certainly not sad that all this new DB stuff came out, but I'm not exactly enthusiastic about it, either. For sure, I got some enjoyment out of watching all the new animated material, but I think doing a weekly series was where this all outstayed its welcome, especially in Super's first half. The Tournament of Power was certainly a fun watch, at least. But I agree with ABED's sentiment that this new material relies too much on nostalgia and drops the feeling of progression that the original series had. I'm curious to see where this will go post-Broly, but I'm not anticipating it, if that makes sense.
ABED wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:39 am
Can anyone name any successful revivals?
The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Doctor Who, but that revival was almost 15 years ago now.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Mister_Popo » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:34 pm

I don't think there is a problem with 1 or 2 revivals. I do have the impression everything concerning sf / fantasy / horror that had some descent degree of success in the 80s and 90s, gets a revival, because it assures a return of investment. More than when you take the risk to make something brand new. We may get a creativity problem in the industry that way in the end. Same with Shounen in general. Writers don't start from scratch, but re-use well known formulas to milk in order to have some guarantee of success.
I think Broly is the ultimate proof of this. They know it's a popular character, so they choose to make a movie about it.
I did like the movie at the end, but i would have liked a well-written true Saiyans original story about Yamoshi even more.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:40 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:34 pm
I don't think there is a problem with 1 or 2 revivals. I do have the impression everything concerning sf / fantasy / horror that had some descent degree of success in the 80s and 90s, gets a revival, because it assures a return of investment. More than when you take the risk to make something brand new. We may get a creativity problem in the industry that way in the end. Same with Shounen in general. Writers don't start from scratch, but re-use well known formulas to milk in order to have some guarantee of success.
I think Broly is the ultimate proof of this. They know it's a popular character, so they choose to make a movie about it.
I did like the movie at the end, but i would have liked a well-written true Saiyans original story about Yamoshi even more.
It bugs me to see so many all at the same time, but the sky isn't falling and there isn't a creativity issue. There's certainly an unhealthy aversion to risk in Hollywood, but there's SO much content being created these days and I would say most of it is very niche that I don't worry about a lack of creativity, but most of that is in TV.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Mister_Popo » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:52 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:40 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:34 pm
I don't think there is a problem with 1 or 2 revivals. I do have the impression everything concerning sf / fantasy / horror that had some descent degree of success in the 80s and 90s, gets a revival, because it assures a return of investment. More than when you take the risk to make something brand new. We may get a creativity problem in the industry that way in the end. Same with Shounen in general. Writers don't start from scratch, but re-use well known formulas to milk in order to have some guarantee of success.
I think Broly is the ultimate proof of this. They know it's a popular character, so they choose to make a movie about it.
I did like the movie at the end, but i would have liked a well-written true Saiyans original story about Yamoshi even more.
It bugs me to see so many all at the same time, but the sky isn't falling and there isn't a creativity issue. There's certainly an unhealthy aversion to risk in Hollywood, but there's SO much content being created these days and I would say most of it is very niche that I don't worry about a lack of creativity, but most of that is in TV.

The trend producers tend to pick up things that already have been succesful, you don't think that tends towards a creativity issue?
You choose for something that already had its merits, so chances are higher people take it anyway than with a brand new product.
This also means that a completely new fresh idea does not get that investment. It has a disadvantage in advance.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:01 pm

No because there's so much original stuff being made today that wouldn't have been made 20-25 years ago. It all just SEEMS like it's prequels, sequels, remakes, reboots, and revivals because that's what generally gets the most press. I don't think you are looking at any hard numbers. Your last sentence in particular is off the mark. There isn't a fixed pie. We are seeing more and more investment in original content now that we're in the midst of the streaming wars.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:28 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:01 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:52 pm
The trend producers tend to pick up things that already have been succesful, you don't think that tends towards a creativity issue?
You choose for something that already had its merits, so chances are higher people take it anyway than with a brand new product.
This also means that a completely new fresh idea does not get that investment. It has a disadvantage in advance.
No because there's so much original stuff being made today that wouldn't have been made 20-25 years ago. It all just SEEMS like it's prequels, sequels, remakes, reboots, and revivals because that's what generally gets the most press. I don't think you are looking at any hard numbers. Your last sentence in particular is off the mark. There isn't a fixed pie. We are seeing more and more investment in original content now that we're in the midst of the streaming wars.
Exactly.

If you don't mind, I'd like to add my two cents to this:
I see a lot of people complain "so many reboots, why can't we get something new?" and I find, interestingly, when I ask them if they watched Miss Sloane, they didn't see it... And while it was a popular movie, not everyone saw Us... The Post, Hidden Figures, Stan And Laurel, and Rocketman were based off of real events, but are still not remakes/sequels... Arrival was based on a not-well-known book, but is for all intents and purposes an original film; it's not based off any previously-successful film or franchise... Baby Driver, Abominable, Gemini Man, Yesterday, Mid90s, Slaughterhouse Rules, Hunter Killer, Searching, Happytime Murders, A Quiet Place, Downsizing... There really is no shortage of original content.

The problem is, the people who complain about there being nothing new are like most people in that they're only going and seeing what gets all the big press, i.e. the big franchise films with the huge marketing budgets.
It's not like the only movies releasing any given year are Marvel's two or three offerings plus a DC or two and maybe a Star Wars. If you want to see more original stuff, pick up Netflix and see a new Netflix original, or make the effort and spend the money to go to the cinema and see the films that you haven't heard of. If you really want more original content, go see the original content that's being put out constantly, and support it in its initial run.
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:33 am

I didn't say any or few original content is being made. I only pointed out an existing trend that is going on.
Fact is something that has been very popular once, has a higher chance of return of investment.

As more and more content is being made, eventually more will get sequels and prequels.
We will end up with a massive load of content of revivals and extended universes, as already now is the case.
There are also a lot of original 'series' that aren't really that 'original' but tend to follow the same style or pattern of existing shows.

For instance the success of Games of Thrones will not only generate more prequels of GOTR itself.
More 'original' series will follow the coming years that are equivalent to Games of Thrones on Netflix, HBO, Prime ...
All money that could have been spend on completely new ideas as well.
In anime there are good original shows as well, but there are also a lot of shows (definitely in genre Shounen) that follow the same pattern or topic. Mostly because an equivalent show has been succesful in the past. How many anime or manga aren't somehow conceptually based on Dragon Ball? In that case i still the prefer the original. Yes, DB is more of the same, but at least it's authentic, the same universe, no forced copycat with different characters.

It wasn't my intent to give a definitive value judgment about revivals or complain. I myself don't even go to cinemas to watch the popular blockbusters btw (Broly was an exception to me because it was Dragon Ball). It doesn't bother me personally. And i do know where to find original content.
I only wanted to point out: more content that's being made has its benefits (more choice), but it may also have its disadvantages (let's copycat existing ideas for even more money).
Last edited by Mister_Popo on Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:06 am

Mister Popo, I understand what you wrote. There is a trend, but that is one amongst many. More original content than ever is being produced.
All money that could have been spend on completely new ideas as well.
No, because that's not how it works. There is more money being spent on more content than ever. The money being spent on existing IP isn't being diverted from original ideas. In fact, it's the revenue being generated from the existing IP that is helping pay for original and niche content, hence the term "tent-pole".
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:22 am

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:06 am
Mister Popo, I understand what you wrote. There is a trend, but that is one amongst many. More original content than ever is being produced.
All money that could have been spend on completely new ideas as well.
No, because that's not how it works. There is more money being spent on more content than ever. The money being spent on existing IP isn't being diverted from original ideas. In fact, it's the revenue being generated from the existing IP that is helping pay for original and niche content, hence the term "tent-pole".


Don't the "blockbuster" series or movies often get more budget than the niche or less known series?
That's an enormous advantage in order to make a good end product, definitely with fantasy products. You can make a good fiction movie or series on lower budget, but it's not easy. And the results aren't always that convincing.
Last edited by Mister_Popo on Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by DHM211 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:27 am

Yes.

The Revival brought about Kai, which introduced me into the series, and is my favorite way to watch the "Z" portion of DB.
It also brought about Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F', two movies that I consider enjoyable for the most part.
Then Super came around. And while I'm not a big fan of Super as a whole, it did give me some enjoyable moments. I really like the Future Trunks saga, most of the slice of life episodes, and a decent portion of the Universal Survival Arc, especially its finale.
And of course theres Broly, which I consider to be one of my favorite parts of DB....

So overall, yeah I'm happy the revival happened.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:01 am

Mister_Popo wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:22 am
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:06 am
Mister Popo, I understand what you wrote. There is a trend, but that is one amongst many. More original content than ever is being produced.
All money that could have been spend on completely new ideas as well.
No, because that's not how it works. There is more money being spent on more content than ever. The money being spent on existing IP isn't being diverted from original ideas. In fact, it's the revenue being generated from the existing IP that is helping pay for original and niche content, hence the term "tent-pole".


Don't the "blockbuster" series or movies often get more budget than the niche or less known series?
That's an enormous advantage in order to make a good end product, definitely with fantasy products. You can make a good fiction movie or series on lower budget, but it's not easy. And the results aren't always that convincing.
Of course they get a bigger budget, but I'm not sure what point you're driving at. Bigger films have bigger visibility, but we aren't lacking for great smaller movies and TV shows, and technology has lowered the barrier to finding them. We're getting more of them because unlike years past, they don't have to compete for a timeslot or space in a theater. Watching them on a streaming platform may not be ideal for cinemaphiles, but that's the tradeoff.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Skar » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:51 am

I get what Mister_Popo is saying. Blockbusters get a bigger slice of the revenue. The top 10 highest grossing movies each of the last few years have been mostly superhero movies, sequels, and remakes. After buying Fox, Disney has over 35% of box office revenue. It's not just Disney but all Big Five film studios mainly focus on existing franchises because original content is less likely to breakeven. From what I've read, number of tickets sold keep declining while ticket prices go up so fewer movies are being watched in theaters and people are more likely to pay for a few blockbusters and watch lesser known titles later when they hit streaming, VOD, etc.

While there is original content on streaming services, Netflix hasn't had a positive cash flow since 2011. Investing in original content is a long term strategy in hopes that it would recoup the investment with more subscribers but that becomes more difficult for Netflix with all the new streaming competition. The main selling point of Disney+ is their huge catalogue and spinoffs of existing franchises.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:01 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:01 am
Mister_Popo wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:22 am
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:06 am
Mister Popo, I understand what you wrote. There is a trend, but that is one amongst many. More original content than ever is being produced.

No, because that's not how it works. There is more money being spent on more content than ever. The money being spent on existing IP isn't being diverted from original ideas. In fact, it's the revenue being generated from the existing IP that is helping pay for original and niche content, hence the term "tent-pole".


Don't the "blockbuster" series or movies often get more budget than the niche or less known series?
That's an enormous advantage in order to make a good end product, definitely with fantasy products. You can make a good fiction movie or series on lower budget, but it's not easy. And the results aren't always that convincing.
Of course they get a bigger budget, but I'm not sure what point you're driving at. Bigger films have bigger visibility, but we aren't lacking for great smaller movies and TV shows, and technology has lowered the barrier to finding them. We're getting more of them because unlike years past, they don't have to compete for a timeslot or space in a theater. Watching them on a streaming platform may not be ideal for cinemaphiles, but that's the tradeoff.

I only wanted to point out, if you want a really high budget, chances are bigger if your idea has already proven itself.
It's perfectly rational to think that way, but it's not the most innovating mindset.

There is a new Tolkien series coming op. I think it's going to cost 1 billion dollars orso for five years.
That's an awful lot of money that's being spend on the best of everything (writers, effects, actors ...), while in its core the product already exists in books and movies.
It's probably going to look good, yes, but it's a lot of money being spend on something that's not really original.
If you or me would write a bloody good script scifi or fantasy, something completely innovating and new, do you think Prime would give us the 1 billion dollars of the Tolkien budget, even if they would think 'it's not that bad'?
There is good original content coming out, definitely yes, but the end result may have looked even better with a bigger budget. That was basically my point.

This is also the reason why i would prefer to see DB return in the form of a series. That way we are going to see more "original" stories (genre Goku Black) than when it's brought to us by movies. In the movie formula we are going to get more return of Freezas / Coolers / Cells / Brolys because it has to cash cow directly by ticket sales. It's good for one or two movies, but i generally prefer more "original" content, even if the franchise and universe already exists.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:29 pm

You're limiting the discussion purely to big movies. Why are you limiting this discussion to just that? There are a LOT of other films and TV shows out there that aren't based on big IP. But while we're at it, being based on IP doesn't guarantee quality in either direction. Both Jaws and The Godfather are based off schlocky novels. Adaptations are an art all their own.

I don't even know why you are limiting this to big live action Hollywood blockbusters. DB is certainly not any of those things.
That was basically my point.
Which has nothing to do with the discussion. It started by you worried that there wasn't enough original content. You have me confused.

I don't think the sky is falling in terms of original ideas in film and TV, since we're moving more and more into a niche world and that has pretty much always been where the most innovative stuff anyway. I highly suggest reading The Long Tail which is about this very issue.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:39 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:29 pm
You're limiting the discussion purely to big movies. Why are you limiting this discussion to just that? There are a LOT of other films and TV shows out there that aren't based on big IP. But while we're at it, being based on IP doesn't guarantee quality in either direction. Both Jaws and The Godfather are based off schlocky novels. Adaptations are an art all their own.

I don't even know why you are limiting this to big live action Hollywood blockbusters. DB is certainly not any of those things.
That was basically my point.
Which has nothing to do with the discussion. It started by you worried that there wasn't enough original content. You have me confused.

My point is the same as in the beginning. I only brought some more nuance because you did not understand.

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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:41 pm

What nuance? How was that even on topic? You began by pointing out a trend of more and more films and TV being based off existing IP and a lack of originality. I said there was more original content than ever and somehow this devolved into talking about big budgets taking away money from more original film and TV shows. And it got you onto this point about how you couldn't get as huge a budget as the LOTR Amazon series. Of course, but how does that prove your thesis that there's less and less original ideas? The original ideas probably won't be in the bigger budget fair. It's in the smaller films and TV shows, generally speaking.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

Post by wolflonnie » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:46 pm

I am and I wish the anime kept going. I was skeptical in the beginning, but I grew in love with Super, perhaps a bit more than DBZ.

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