DragonBall should do more with politics

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:34 pm

GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:16 pm
Personally I am more interested on how the Space Trade organizing works. Freeza is supposed to be a dealer, I kind of want to see him doing some business with the planets he's conquers and sells. Who does he sell them too?
Yeah, there has to be some kind of system involved for the almighty power of Freeza to play around with without growing bored.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by Vijay » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:58 am

Jord wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:18 am
During the Daimao Saga we meet the King (the dog guy) who needs to evacuate because Piccolo is taking over. I really liked that scene since it gave us a bit more of world building that was missing before...and since. Usually, Dragonball's world is just a series of plains, mountains and random cities etc but that little scene did a whole lot of story telling. All those horrible things are happening in the DragonWorld but they mean less if we only see the reaction of the main cast. Drawing that a bit further and seeing the general public react to the Vegeta & Nappa is a great way to add impact but political scenes could add even more to it.
I mean, the final part of Super determines the fate of the universe and no one on earth knows about it. That's a big contrast with the terrors of Buu for example.

Maybe they could even toy with the idea of elections with Gohan running for president and using his brains to make the world a better place. He kinds reminds me of Bernie Sanders's philosophies anyways.
You do remember whatever Piccolo accomplished when dude overthrew Dog King from King's Castle...such as releasin the criminals, robbery/violence/ acts of crimes are justified, justice is evil etc was done in Nolan's The Dark Knight Rises?

Also, the point u mention abt Gohan running for presidency needs realistic, grounded approach. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that reality/grounded approach was done back in DB & Z.

We've got God's, Angels whatnot in Super. U think it's gonna work now?

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:53 am

Vijay wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:58 am
Jord wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:18 am
During the Daimao Saga we meet the King (the dog guy) who needs to evacuate because Piccolo is taking over. I really liked that scene since it gave us a bit more of world building that was missing before...and since. Usually, Dragonball's world is just a series of plains, mountains and random cities etc but that little scene did a whole lot of story telling. All those horrible things are happening in the DragonWorld but they mean less if we only see the reaction of the main cast. Drawing that a bit further and seeing the general public react to the Vegeta & Nappa is a great way to add impact but political scenes could add even more to it.
I mean, the final part of Super determines the fate of the universe and no one on earth knows about it. That's a big contrast with the terrors of Buu for example.

Maybe they could even toy with the idea of elections with Gohan running for president and using his brains to make the world a better place. He kinds reminds me of Bernie Sanders's philosophies anyways.
You do remember whatever Piccolo accomplished when dude overthrew Dog King from King's Castle...such as releasin the criminals, robbery/violence/ acts of crimes are justified, justice is evil etc was done in Nolan's The Dark Knight Rises?

Also, the point u mention abt Gohan running for presidency needs realistic, grounded approach. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that reality/grounded approach was done back in DB & Z.

We've got God's, Angels whatnot in Super. U think it's gonna work now?
Like I said, all he needs is an endorsement from his father-in-law and victory is his.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by Ryuji-Otogi » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:47 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:06 am
The politics in Dragon Ball just shifted from the Earth to the entire cosmos in Super. You still have politics in Super, but they are the politics of the Gods. The bickering between the Kais and Destroyers, the competition hosted between Beerus and Champa, Zeno serving as the ultimate monarch of the cosmos, then the whole storyline with Zamasu, where he usurps the position of Supreme Kai of U10 and exterminates all his fellow Gods to become the sole deity of the cosmos (the Supreme God, if you will)... In the manga we also have Rumsshi (the Destroyer of U10) reprimanding Gowasu for choosing Zamasu as his successor; not only beacuse U10 then had to rely on Beerus (the Destroyer of U7) to destroy Zamasu, but also because he was worried the upcoming meeting with the Grand Priest involved Zamasu's actions, which would obviously reflect very badly on U10. In the anime we also have the Supreme Kais of the various universes meeting up in secret to discuss the Tournament of Power, then Roh and Sidra (the deities of U9) trying to weaken U7 before the Tournament.

Super is full of these little dynamics between the various gods, and I love it. As I was saying, Dragon Ball still has a political aspect to it, but it was just shifted to a multiversal perspective.
This is a good point. We do get to see Dragon World politics in the scope of the Gods/Supreme Kai. With that in mind, what could earthly politics contribute to the story that would be meaningful or interesting? Maybe Toriyama could’ve fleshed the world out a bit more when he was writing the main story, but it would be a little too late at this point IMO.

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:06 am

Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:47 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:06 am
The politics in Dragon Ball just shifted from the Earth to the entire cosmos in Super. You still have politics in Super, but they are the politics of the Gods. The bickering between the Kais and Destroyers, the competition hosted between Beerus and Champa, Zeno serving as the ultimate monarch of the cosmos, then the whole storyline with Zamasu, where he usurps the position of Supreme Kai of U10 and exterminates all his fellow Gods to become the sole deity of the cosmos (the Supreme God, if you will)... In the manga we also have Rumsshi (the Destroyer of U10) reprimanding Gowasu for choosing Zamasu as his successor; not only beacuse U10 then had to rely on Beerus (the Destroyer of U7) to destroy Zamasu, but also because he was worried the upcoming meeting with the Grand Priest involved Zamasu's actions, which would obviously reflect very badly on U10. In the anime we also have the Supreme Kais of the various universes meeting up in secret to discuss the Tournament of Power, then Roh and Sidra (the deities of U9) trying to weaken U7 before the Tournament.

Super is full of these little dynamics between the various gods, and I love it. As I was saying, Dragon Ball still has a political aspect to it, but it was just shifted to a multiversal perspective.
This is a good point. We do get to see Dragon World politics in the scope of the Gods/Supreme Kai. With that in mind, what could earthly politics contribute to the story that would be meaningful or interesting? Maybe Toriyama could’ve fleshed the world out a bit more when he was writing the main story, but it would be a little too late at this point IMO.
Agreed. Earth politics are pretty pointless now that the focus has shifted towards the greater cosmos. Regardless, Super does dwell on Earth politics, but briefly. It is mentioned in the Tournament of Destroyers arc that Universe 6's Earth was turned into a toxic wasteland due to many global wars conducted by the world's nations. I think this is the only time Super touches that subject.
"And now we will cleanse the Earth. Your filthy kind is worst of all. How many times have your conflicts nearly destroyed this planet and threatened to spread across this universe? And since you've learned to defy time you can spread your violence even farther."

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:14 am

The politics, Intergalactic or terrestrial, are only interesting insofar as they impact the heroes and villains in some tangible way. I don't care about world building nor do I think general audience care, either.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:39 am

The last thing Dragon Ball needs to deal with is politics, it ain't South Park. Of course, it doesn't mean the series never gets "real".

The Planet Trade Organization parallels to slavery in real-life whatnot with Planet Vegeta being Africa and the Saiyan being blacks/Africans while Freeza being the "white man" (his true form is literally white). Goku is any significant black/colored figure who managed to escape the vicious cycle and fight against oppression.

Mr. Satan being revered as the world champion by the masses despite the obvious is a parallel to the commercialization of martial arts and sporting events in general. It also shows just how gullible the general public really is as they believe him when he dismisses all the crazy feats that these superpowered warriors display as "tricks".
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:44 am

The Saiyans aren't analogs to African slaves. They were willing accomplices. The Saiyans weren't victims. They were gangsters who the big boss killed because he feared they'd try and take his throne.

Freeza was designed to be more like the land sharks in Japan that fueled the Japanese real estate bubble in the late 80s.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:30 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:44 am
The Saiyans aren't analogs to African slaves. They were willing accomplices. The Saiyans weren't victims. They were gangsters who the big boss killed because he feared they'd try and take his throne.
Many Africans were willing accomplices in the slave trade and the Saiyans were technically victims as they were killed by Freeza despite blindly serving his every will.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:49 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:30 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:44 am
The Saiyans aren't analogs to African slaves. They were willing accomplices. The Saiyans weren't victims. They were gangsters who the big boss killed because he feared they'd try and take his throne.
Many Africans were willing accomplices in the slave trade and the Saiyans were technically victims as they were killed by Freeza despite blindly serving his every will.
The Saiyans weren't victims beyond being killed, but they had it coming. They were murderers and savages who murdered people out of bloodlust. Do you really want to make that connection with the African slave trade?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:32 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:49 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:30 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:44 am
The Saiyans aren't analogs to African slaves. They were willing accomplices. The Saiyans weren't victims. They were gangsters who the big boss killed because he feared they'd try and take his throne.
Many Africans were willing accomplices in the slave trade and the Saiyans were technically victims as they were killed by Freeza despite blindly serving his every will.
The Saiyans weren't victims beyond being killed, but they had it coming. They were murderers and savages who murdered people out of bloodlust. Do you really want to make that connection with the African slave trade?
The Saiyans deserved to die but not by the hands of Freeza. They were killers but they weren't doing it without reason. It was pretty much how they eat.

Africans/blacks do often act in a self-destructive matter so it's not that reaching of a comparison.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:36 pm

It's very clear they didn't murder entire planets to put food on the table. They did it because they love to fight. I very much disagree that the Saiyans didn't deserve to die at Freeza's hands. That was poetic justice. And even assuming that was how they made a living, that's not a legitimate line of work.
I'm black too so you can't call me racist.
Wow, I have no words.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:05 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:36 pm
It's very clear they didn't murder entire planets to put food on the table. They did it because they love to fight. I very much disagree that the Saiyans didn't deserve to die at Freeza's hands. That was poetic justice. And even assuming that was how they made a living, that's not a legitimate line of work.
A bunch of assholes getting destroyed by an even bigger asshole is not poetic justice. At most, it's cruel irony.

They were obviously doing it as a form of business.
Vegeta told Nappa not to cause too much destruction to Earth proprty as it would reduce its value. You can argue they enjoyed their job (perhaps too much) despite its illicit nature, but they obviously hated the person they were working under.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:12 pm

It is poetic justice. The think they are working with the emperor of the universe and are untouchable only to get killed by him. It's like a made man in the mafia thinking they are untouchable only to get offed. I don't feel sorry for those thugs, nor should anyone. They're bullies, to put it mildly.

It's not a legitimate form of business. Genocide isn't trading value for value. It's a zero sum game which is the opposite of what legitimate business is.

Vegeta was unhappy working for Freeza because HE wanted to be the emperor.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DrBriefsCat » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:28 pm

American politics in a Japanese show? Where's the Abenomics?
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:47 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:12 pm
It is poetic justice. The think they are working with the emperor of the universe and are untouchable only to get killed by him. It's like a made man in the mafia thinking they are untouchable only to get offed. I don't feel sorry for those thugs, nor should anyone. They're bullies, to put it mildly.

It's not a legitimate form of business. Genocide isn't trading value for value. It's a zero sum game which is the opposite of what legitimate business is.

Vegeta was unhappy working for Freeza because HE wanted to be the emperor.
It is not poetic justice. Poetic justice would be one of the people who's lives they ruined rising above the ashes and destroying them not the man who gave them leeway to do dirt in the first place.

The slave trade wasn't a legitimate business to begin with. Either way, business is still business.

Considering the thought of ruling the universe didn't even cross Vegeta's till the beginning of the Freeza arc, I doubt it was the only reason.

Besides it's obvious none of the other Saiyans didn't like him either otherwise Freeza wouldn't have feared them overthrowing him in the first place.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:04 pm

It's poetic justice because the very thing they did better than just about anyone else was done to them. Poetic justice is all about irony.
Considering the thought of ruling the universe didn't even cross Vegeta's till the beginning of the Freeza arc, I doubt it was the only reason.

Besides it's obvious none of the other Saiyans didn't like him either otherwise Freeza wouldn't have feared them overthrowing him in the first place.
You don't have to guess or read between the lines. Vegeta's reasons for rebelling were uncomplicated and very explicit. He wanted to fight forever and continue what he was doing - going around killing people. Wanting to lord it over people doesn't contradict the first motivation.

It's not obvious how the other Saiyans felt about Freeza. We know very little of their race prior to being destroyed and the different accounts are pretty mixed. Some welcomed Freeza and some were uneasy about the alliance given how powerful he was. Freeza feared the Saiyans because on some level, the thought that the Super Saiyan legend might actually be true.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:33 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:04 pm
It's poetic justice because the very thing they did better than just about anyone else was done to them. Poetic justice is all about irony.
Considering the thought of ruling the universe didn't even cross Vegeta's till the beginning of the Freeza arc, I doubt it was the only reason.

Besides it's obvious none of the other Saiyans didn't like him either otherwise Freeza wouldn't have feared them overthrowing him in the first place.
You don't have to guess or read between the lines. Vegeta's reasons for rebelling were uncomplicated and very explicit. He wanted to fight forever and continue what he was doing - going around killing people. Wanting to lord it over people doesn't contradict the first motivation.

It's not obvious how the other Saiyans felt about Freeza. We know very little of their race prior to being destroyed and the different accounts are pretty mixed. Some welcomed Freeza and some were uneasy about the alliance given how powerful he was. Freeza feared the Saiyans because on some level, the thought that the Super Saiyan legend might actually be true.
Poetic justice is a fitting and deserved retribution to one's actions which is like Goku being the one to avenge his fallen race and defeat Freeza. Killing the Saiyans in and of itself is hardly an unjust act as I've said before but Freeza only did it out of fear for something they might do despite them serving his every will.

Vegeta only started rebelling once he learned Freeza was after the dragonballs and that he was responsible for the destruction of Planet Vegeta as well as the Saiyan genocide.

The anime goes a bit more depth and there's obvious tension between the Saiyans and Freeza. In fact, pretty much nobody liked Freeza, but it's not like he cared unless they proved to be a potential threat.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:47 pm

That's just justice. No, them dying isn't in and of itself isn't just. What's justice is they suffered the same fate they visited on so many others. That's fitting.

Goku being the one to defeat Freeza isn't poetic justice because he avenged his fallen race. He didn't. He never cared for the Saiyans. He didn't do it for them on any level. What's poetic about it is a castoff from a race Freeza considered like cockroaches was the one to defeat him, and he wasn't even one of the elite class.
Vegeta only started rebelling once he learned Freeza was after the dragonballs and that he was responsible for the destruction of Planet Vegeta as well as the Saiyan genocide.

The anime goes a bit more depth and there's obvious tension between the Saiyans and Freeza. In fact, pretty much nobody liked Freeza, but it's not like he cared unless they proved to be a potential threat.
And? Vegeta was smart to not go after someone so strong if he didn't have the means to defeat him. I don't see how that counters the points I raised about his motives. And lastly, the anime is so contradictory about the nature of the partnership.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:37 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:47 pm
That's just justice. No, them dying isn't in and of itself isn't just. What's justice is they suffered the same fate they visited on so many others. That's fitting.
It's not justice because the man who killed them is worse than they are.
Goku being the one to defeat Freeza isn't poetic justice because he avenged his fallen race. He didn't. He never cared for the Saiyans. He didn't do it for them on any level. What's poetic about it is a castoff from a race Freeza considered like cockroaches was the one to defeat him, and he wasn't even one of the elite class.
Goku: To think that a man as yourself would shed tears... and to beg... what you endured must be unimaginably frustrating. I understand... moreso than having your entire race murdered; it is to have your free will and pride ground under his feet; a pain I cannot start to imagine. I hated you so much, but I've always respected you for proudly defending your race's honor... Now lend me some of that pride, for I am a Saiyan who grew up on Earth!! (Turns to Frieza) For the Saiyan race you exterminated, and for all the Namekians you murdered, I shall defeat you!!
And? Vegeta was smart to not go after someone so strong if he didn't have the means to defeat him. I don't see how that counters the points I raised about his motives. And lastly, the anime is so contradictory about the nature of the partnership.
Otherthrowing Freeza wasn't even something that was brought up till the Namek arc and it does counter your points especially since Vegeta stopped caring about ruling the universe once Freeza was gone.

The anime is inconsistent about a lot of things but their partnership isn't really one of them.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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