DragonBall should do more with politics

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:04 pm

It's not justice because Freeza was not brought before a jury of his peers, prosecuted, tried, convicted and sentenced.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:13 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:37 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:47 pm
That's just justice. No, them dying isn't in and of itself isn't just. What's justice is they suffered the same fate they visited on so many others. That's fitting.
It's not justice because the man who killed them is worse than they are.
Goku being the one to defeat Freeza isn't poetic justice because he avenged his fallen race. He didn't. He never cared for the Saiyans. He didn't do it for them on any level. What's poetic about it is a castoff from a race Freeza considered like cockroaches was the one to defeat him, and he wasn't even one of the elite class.
Goku: To think that a man as yourself would shed tears... and to beg... what you endured must be unimaginably frustrating. I understand... moreso than having your entire race murdered; it is to have your free will and pride ground under his feet; a pain I cannot start to imagine. I hated you so much, but I've always respected you for proudly defending your race's honor... Now lend me some of that pride, for I am a Saiyan who grew up on Earth!! (Turns to Frieza) For the Saiyan race you exterminated, and for all the Namekians you murdered, I shall defeat you!!
And? Vegeta was smart to not go after someone so strong if he didn't have the means to defeat him. I don't see how that counters the points I raised about his motives. And lastly, the anime is so contradictory about the nature of the partnership.
Otherthrowing Freeza wasn't even something that was brought up till the Namek arc and it does counter your points especially since Vegeta stopped caring about ruling the universe once Freeza was gone.

The anime is inconsistent about a lot of things but their partnership isn't really one of them.
Freeza was stronger than them, not worse. Both Freeza and the Saiyans were mass murdering monsters.

That speech was pure lip service, nothing else.

Of course he didn't bring up Freeza until the Namek arc. Toriyama hadn't created Freeza yet. Again, the fact that Freeza isn't brought up before doesn't make the statement of Vegeta's motives any less true. And guess what? People can change their minds! He still wants to be the strongest even after Freeza is defeated, he just doesn't want to head the empire. You haven't proven me wrong. Vegeta isn't dumb. He's not going to go up against Freeza until he believes he has the means to defeat him. And he rebelled the second he decided to leave for Earth. He's already rebelled by the time he learns about his homeworld's desctruction from Dodoria.

On the off chance you were right about the nature of the Saiyan / Freeza alliance, how does that prove anything other than one gang doesn't like another gang pushing their weight around. The Saiyans aren't in any way shape or form good people. They aren't innocent victims. They were murderers who met more powerful murderers and got murdered before they could murder him.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:26 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:13 pm
Freeza was stronger than them, not worse. Both Freeza and the Saiyans were mass murdering monsters.
Freeza was worse. The Saiyans were evil space pirates but they at least had a sense of loyalty amongst each other given how Bardock was genuinely upset over Freeza's betrayal, Raditz gave Goku multiple chances to join him, and Nappa wanted to revive Raditz and encouraged the Saibamen to do after Vegeta killed one for getting sloppy. It ain't all black and white.

Freeza is a psychopath with literally no regard for anyone but himself.
That speech was pure lip service, nothing else.
So Toriyama had Goku make a big speech about embracing his heritage and wanting to revenge his fallen race only for it to mean nothing?
Of course he didn't bring up Freeza until the Namek arc. Toriyama hadn't created Freeza yet. Again, the fact that Freeza isn't brought up before doesn't make the statement of Vegeta's motives any less true. And guess what? People can change their minds! He still wants to be the strongest even after Freeza is defeated, he just doesn't want to head the empire. You haven't proven me wrong. Vegeta isn't dumb. He's not going to go up against Freeza until he believes he has the means to defeat him. And he rebelled the second he decided to leave for Earth. He's already rebelled by the time he learns about his homeworld's desctruction from Dodoria.
I'm not talking about Freeza I'm talking about ruling the universe in general. The fact Vegeta never brought it up at all initially proves it was never an overriding goal for him.
On the off chance you were right about the nature of the Saiyan / Freeza alliance, how does that prove anything other than one gang doesn't like another gang pushing their weight around. The Saiyans aren't in any way shape or form good people. They aren't innocent victims. They were murderers who met more powerful murderers and got murdered before they could murder him.
You're original argue was basically that the Saiyans didn't like Freeza because they wanted to be the ones on top rather than them not liking his patronizing and sarcastic attitude towards them.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:24 pm

Freeza was worse. The Saiyans were evil space pirates but they at least had a sense of loyalty amongst
No they didn't. Were they loyal to Raditz? Nappa doesn't put up much of a fuss when Vegeta shoots down Nappa's suggestion. Was Vegeta loyal to Nappa? Raditz shows NO loyalty to Goku. After his offer gets rejected, he kidnaps Goku to force him to comply. That is in NO way shape or form an example of loyalty. None of your examples work. No, it's not black and white. It's all black. If the question was how much more black could it be, the answer would be none more black. Vegeta is also a psychopath and only EVENTUALLY after a ton of development grows a conscience. Of all the adjectives one would use to describe the Saiyans, "loyalty" is not one of them.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:26 pm
You're original argue was basically that the Saiyans didn't like Freeza because they wanted to be the ones on top rather than them not liking his patronizing and sarcastic attitude towards them.
That wasn't my argument, and I'm baffled why you think that.

All this is interesting, but is starting to feel off topic, but it's way more interesting than the godly hierarchy or whatever passed for politics on DB's Earth.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:15 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:24 pm
Freeza was worse. The Saiyans were evil space pirates but they at least had a sense of loyalty amongst
No they didn't. Were they loyal to Raditz? Nappa doesn't put up much of a fuss when Vegeta shoots down Nappa's suggestion. Was Vegeta loyal to Nappa? Raditz shows NO loyalty to Goku. After his offer gets rejected, he kidnaps Goku to force him to comply. That is in NO way shape or form an example of loyalty. None of your examples work. No, it's not black and white. It's all black. If the question was how much more black could it be, the answer would be none more black. Vegeta is also a psychopath and only EVENTUALLY after a ton of development grows a conscience. Of all the adjectives one would use to describe the Saiyans, "loyalty" is not one of them.
Nappa didn't particularly care for Raditz but in the anime, he did give Vegeta a weird look for shooting down the idea of reviving him. It's only after Vegeta coaxed him into using the dragonballs to wish for immortality instead that he sided with him.

If Raditz really had no regard for Goku, he wouldn't have even came looking for him in the first place let down try so hard to talk him into joining them. He didn't even need Goku for the mission he was sought out to accomplish. He just wanted one among the other remaining Saiyans.

Vegeta is not a psychopath nor is he a sociopath (although he may have some tendencies). Psychopath are not capable of having a conscious.
Last edited by DBZAOTA482 on Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:23 pm

Not being condescending, but do you know what loyalty is? It's a feeling of allegiance, which none of your exmaples show. If a few words can persuade Nappa to not resurrect his supposed comrade, he's not loyal. Raditz looking to his brother to join his ranks because he believed him to be strong isn't loyalty. He tries to kill him without much prodding. At best, you've picked examples where the characters pay lip service to it and most of the time not even then.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:36 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:23 pm
Not being condescending, but do you know what loyalty is? It's a feeling of allegiance, which none of your exmaples show. If a few words can persuade Nappa to not resurrect his supposed comrade, he's not loyal. Raditz looking to his brother to join his ranks because he believed him to be strong isn't loyalty. He tries to kill him without much prodding. At best, you've picked examples where the characters pay lip service to it and most of the time not even then.
Loyalty is faithfulness and devotion to someone or something. Nappa's loyalties aren't really towards Raditz but rather the Saiyan race in general and possibly Vegeta.

Raditz did not want Goku because he was particularly strong. He scouted him and saw he was far weaker than he should be, which is partly why he was mad at the Earthlings' influence on him. Even then he still tried to talk Goku into joining him before the latter took a combative stance.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:40 pm

Nappa is about the only Saiyan who shows any loyalty and we only know that at the very end when it comes as a complete shock when Vegeta kills him the second he proves useless.

Trying to kill someone then saying "hey, before I do it, you sure you don't want to join me?" is in no way loyalty. More to the point, Loyalty isn't inherently a noble trait if what you are loyal to is an evil person or idea. Freeza and the Saiyans are very much cut from the same cloth. They're butchers.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:57 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:40 pm
Nappa is about the only Saiyan who shows any loyalty and we only know that at the very end when it comes as a complete shock when Vegeta kills him the second he proves useless.

Trying to kill someone then saying "hey, before I do it, you sure you don't want to join me?" is in no way loyalty. More to the point, Loyalty isn't inherently a noble trait if what you are loyal to is an evil person or idea. Freeza and the Saiyans are very much cut from the same cloth. They're butchers.
Raditz only tried to kill Goku when the latter and Piccolo both tried to kill him first which is when he decided he won't give him any more chances. At first, he was willing to talk things out but Goku adamantly refuses to join and took a combative stance.

Loyalty is still loyalty. Good or bad.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:16 am

"Raditz only fought Goku in self-defense" is a hot take I never thought I'd see here.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:48 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:16 am
"Raditz only fought Goku in self-defense" is a hot take I never thought I'd see here.
More like "Raditz fought Goku because he was an insolent little piece of shit".
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:20 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:48 am
More like "Raditz fought Goku because he was an insolent little piece of shit".
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:57 pm
Raditz only tried to kill Goku when the latter and Piccolo both tried to kill him first which is when he decided he won't give him any more chances. At first, he was willing to talk things out but Goku adamantly refuses to join and took a combative stance.
I'm sorry, but what? Threatening, blackmailing, assaulting, and kidnapping do not represent "talking things out." If your only bargaining options are "do as I say and murder people" or "I will take your preschool-aged son," you are not the reasonable one here. I'm not big on violence myself, but I feel once such a line has been crossed, I would hope my response would be a bit more than wringing my hands and saying, "Oh, geez. I guess I was a little rude, wasn't I? If only I had been a little more amenable to my mass-murdering brother, then maybe my son would still be here. I should probably apologize."

It really bugs me when fans try to minimize just how horrible the Saiyans are in order to rationalize their popularity and personal identification to them. Well, I suppose "bugs" is the wrong word. It kinda worries me whenever amoral fictional characters' atrocities are swept away. But I can't say I've ever seen it taken to the point where it's Goku's fault that Raditz tried to kill him. That feels like a very twisted pretzel logic to me.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:34 pm

I get the feeling he's busting our chops.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:02 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:20 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:48 am
More like "Raditz fought Goku because he was an insolent little piece of shit".
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:57 pm
Raditz only tried to kill Goku when the latter and Piccolo both tried to kill him first which is when he decided he won't give him any more chances. At first, he was willing to talk things out but Goku adamantly refuses to join and took a combative stance.
I'm sorry, but what? Threatening, blackmailing, assaulting, and kidnapping do not represent "talking things out." If your only bargaining options are "do as I say and murder people" or "I will take your preschool-aged son," you are not the reasonable one here. I'm not big on violence myself, but I feel once such a line has been crossed, I would hope my response would be a bit more than wringing my hands and saying, "Oh, geez. I guess I was a little rude, wasn't I? If only I had been a little more amenable to my mass-murdering brother, then maybe my son would still be here. I should probably apologize."

It really bugs me when fans try to minimize just how horrible the Saiyans are in order to rationalize their popularity and personal identification to them. Well, I suppose "bugs" is the wrong word. It kinda worries me whenever amoral fictional characters' atrocities are swept away. But I can't say I've ever seen it taken to the point where it's Goku's fault that Raditz tried to kill him. That feels like a very twisted pretzel logic to me.
Raditz only did those things once his words couldn't reach and Goku took a combative stance.

I'm not say the Saiyans were good people or anything. They were evil space pirates as I've said before but that's just their culture so who are we to judge them? That's Enma's job.
ABED wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:34 pm
I get the feeling he's busting our chops.
I'm not. At least not entirely.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:35 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:02 pm
Raditz only did those things once his words couldn't reach and Goku took a combative stance.

I'm not say the Saiyans were good people or anything. They were evil space pirates as I've said before but that's just their culture so who are we to judge them? That's Enma's job.
Raditz wasn't asking for a loan to keep his house from being foreclosed. He wasn't homeless and needed a place to stay.* His "words" that "couldn't reach" Goku were words demanding that he murder people and subjugate planets. I don't know about you, but that's kind of a non-negotiable point for me, and I don't think I'd be classified as unreasonable if I said no. Goku took a combative stance when Raditz threatened to kidnap his child. That I would call justifiable.

Look, I'm all for trying to see different cultures in a positive light. And I sympathize to the degree that we are all, to an extent, influenced by our culture. But at some point, moral relativism has to be eschewed in favor of common sense. I don't care if the Saiyans kill entire species and conquer planets because it's in their religious doctrine to do so. I'm gonna draw a line in the sand right here and say that's wrong, and anyone who participates in such actions are evil. You could use that exact same argument for Freeza if you wanted to.

Quite frankly, since you're drawing parallels between this and the African slave trade, you could use that same excuse for slavers. In fact, it's been used quite often. Slave labor was very much a part of the society and culture of the U.S. antebellum south. But I don't think it'd be too controversial for me to say that I think that's wrong, that I think that culture was wrong, and that maybe it's not too bad to pass just a teeny tiny bit of judgment against someone who doesn't think it's wrong!

*And even in those cases, that's not justifiable cause for kidnapping a 4 year old and trying to murder people. I'd be hard-pressed to think of any scenario where that could be considered justifiable recourse in conflict management. That's not negotiation. That's strong-armed coercion. It's "my way or the highway."
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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:37 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:35 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:02 pm
Raditz only did those things once his words couldn't reach and Goku took a combative stance.

I'm not say the Saiyans were good people or anything. They were evil space pirates as I've said before but that's just their culture so who are we to judge them? That's Enma's job.
Raditz wasn't asking for a loan to keep his house from being foreclosed. He wasn't homeless and needed a place to stay.* His "words" that "couldn't reach" Goku were words demanding that he murder people and subjugate planets. I don't know about you, but that's kind of a non-negotiable point for me, and I don't think I'd be classified as unreasonable if I said no. Goku took a combative stance when Raditz threatened to kidnap his child. That I would call justifiable.

Look, I'm all for trying to see different cultures in a positive light. And I sympathize to the degree that we are all, to an extent, influenced by our culture. But at some point, moral relativism has to be eschewed in favor of common sense. I don't care if the Saiyans kill entire species and conquer planets because it's in their religious doctrine to do so. I'm gonna draw a line in the sand right here and say that's wrong, and anyone who participates in such actions are evil. You could use that exact same argument for Freeza if you wanted to.

Quite frankly, since you're drawing parallels between this and the African slave trade, you could use that same excuse for slavers. In fact, it's been used quite often. Slave labor was very much a part of the society and culture of the U.S. antebellum south. But I don't think it'd be too controversial for me to say that I think that's wrong, that I think that culture was wrong, and that maybe it's not too bad to pass just a teeny tiny bit of judgment against someone who doesn't think it's wrong!

*And even in those cases, that's not justifiable cause for kidnapping a 4 year old and trying to murder people. I'd be hard-pressed to think of any scenario where that could be considered justifiable recourse in conflict management. That's not negotiation. That's strong-armed coercion. It's "my way or the highway."
Again, I'm not justifying the Saiyan's actions but what I'm saying is the situation isn't quite as simple as "Saiyans were evil bastards so they deserve no pity for their fate". They were betrayed by their master whom they served without question all because of his selfish paranoia.

There's no justice in that at all. It's cruel irony. Basically you do others wrong, the consequences are many times worse
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:10 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:30 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:44 am
The Saiyans aren't analogs to African slaves. They were willing accomplices. The Saiyans weren't victims. They were gangsters who the big boss killed because he feared they'd try and take his throne.
Many Africans were willing accomplices in the slave trade and the Saiyans were technically victims as they were killed by Freeza despite blindly serving his every will.
He said "African slaves", not Africans. The captives were not in any way willing partners in the slave trade.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:32 pm
Africans/blacks do often act in a self-destructive matter so it's not that reaching of a comparison.
This is a very racist statement.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:32 pm
I'm black too so you can't call me racist.
Yes, you can be called racist. Your comment was very racist whether you are aware of it or not.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:47 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:12 pm
It's not a legitimate form of business. Genocide isn't trading value for value. It's a zero sum game which is the opposite of what legitimate business is.
The slave trade wasn't a legitimate business to begin with.
It was very much a "legitimate" business in the sense that you are trading value for value. I'm sure there are arguments that could be made against the legitimacy of the slave trade, but I don't think they apply here.

I can't think of anything found in Dragon Ball that is in any way analogous to the African slave trade.

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:18 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:37 pm
Again, I'm not justifying the Saiyan's actions but what I'm saying is the situation isn't quite as simple as "Saiyans were evil bastards so they deserve no pity for their fate". They were betrayed by their master whom they served without question all because of his selfish paranoia.
They were evil and didn't deserve any pity. They took glee in genocide. They lived by the sword and died by the sword.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:25 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:10 pm
He said "African slaves", not Africans. The captives were not in any way willing partners in the slave trade.
They're not but it's not like the Saiyans were even given a chance to lead a green life. Prior to the Tuffle invasion, they were oppressed and had to live a primitive lifestyle.

It's an extreme parral but the overall point isn't exactly off.
This is a very racist statement.
It's not. The system is still very much designed to keep blacks at a disadvantage which is why we have so much problems dealing with the law.

The cases with Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, and Eric Garner are proof of this.
It was very much a "legitimate" business in the sense that you are trading value for value. I'm sure there are arguments that could be made against the legitimacy of the slave trade, but I don't think they apply here.

I can't think of anything found in Dragon Ball that is in any way analogous to the African slave trade.
In that case, the Planet Trade Organization is a "legitimate" business as they were trading value for value. ABED was claiming they were just doing it for kicks.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: DragonBall should do more with politics

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:45 pm

The Saiyans were NOT oppressed. They lived a primitive life style because they were barbarians who were driven to do nothing more than fight. That's not the kind of society that leads to economic and technological progress. Where do you get this stuff?
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:25 pm
ABED was claiming they were just doing it for kicks.
First, stop putting words in my mouth, and second, stealing people's homes and murdering them is NOT a legitimate business. Business is and should be about all sides mutually benefitting. It's win-win. Slavery is a zero sum game.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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