Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

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Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:36 pm

I liked the first part of GT, the ascension to Super Saiyan 4 and stuff like that but I didn't like the Shadow Dragon Saga simply due to the fact that it portrayed the use of the Dragon Balls to undo the damage caused by alien invasions as being selfish........... Which it wasn't.

The Goku Black Saga wasn't much better for much the same reasons. Though Time Travel is a different ballgame than using the Dragon Balls.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Dr. Casey » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:57 pm

Completely agreed with this. One thing I always liked and respected about Dragon Ball was that it never engaged in "Anything unnatural is wrong!"-style sophistry. GT's reversal of this isn't something that really stained my opinion of the series (my feelings towards which are mixed but leaning negative), but it did annoy me a little.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:04 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:57 pm
Completely agreed with this. One thing I always liked and respected about Dragon Ball was that it never engaged in "Anything unnatural is wrong!"-style sophistry. GT's reversal of this isn't something that really stained my opinion of the series (my feelings towards which are mixed but leaning negative), but it did annoy me a little.
Yeah it just stinks, that's what it does. And Super has made people forget the idea that god levels can be surpassed. Like the old SSJ4 vs SSJB which is stronger debate, which is pointless, as they are equal in power.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:09 pm

Since you brought up the Goku Black arc, the use of time travel done by Trunks and co. throughout the series was selfish, because it tore reality itself apart. There's a reason why time travel is forbidden even to some gods. I don't doubt Trunks' reasons for time travelling were righteous, but what he did was still selfish. He thought to himself "well, if I just time travel and save MY planet, everything's fine", but it's not that simple. If you just want to save your planet without caring whether you risk uspetting the very structure of the cosmos, then you are very selfish.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by ABED » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:15 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:36 pm
I liked the first part of GT, the ascension to Super Saiyan 4 and stuff like that but I didn't like the Shadow Dragon Saga simply due to the fact that it portrayed the use of the Dragon Balls to undo the damage caused by alien invasions as being selfish........... Which it wasn't.

The Goku Black Saga wasn't much better for much the same reasons. Though Time Travel is a different ballgame than using the Dragon Balls.
The issue isn't what purpose the DB's were used for, it's that they were overused. It wasn't just an easy out for the characters, it was an easy out for the writer(s). There were no consequences and over time what limitations they had were lifted.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Mister_Popo » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:18 pm

I have no issues with it, but i'm not its biggest fan.

I do feel the authors abscence in the story. I do feel this as well in Super, but not as much as in GT. Maybe because i haven't seen Super right after DBZ. When i watched GT right after DBZ, i noticed the shift in style of storytelling right away. It feels like TOEI are trying to mimic Toriyamas style, but there are too many inconcistencies and the characters don't always charm as much as in DB, DBZ and even Super.
Unexplainable and fantastic events happen, but they aren't always convincing. When Toriyama writes it, mostly it is convincing, despite the story taking routes that you don't see coming. And that is for me the main reason why i always liked Dragon Ball, the unexplainable stuff being prestented in a convincing manner next to the charming characters and of course the stunning animation. The latter i also thought was not on pair with DBZ or the better animated scenes of Super. There were cool fights and action scenes, but they didn't always have this overwhelming rush to it.

Maybe GT came on a moment when Dragon Ball as a series was dragging on too long, it didn't choose its moment right. Its motivation was just to continue a series that was going on for a very long time. The new movies and Super came after a long abscense of DB-content, so the 'revival' has the advantage of time IMO.

It is however still part of the original anime-run and a part of the franchise. And it has some good parts in it as well that do feel like proper Dragon Ball. I liked the first part of GT the best, the Baby and Super 17-sagas. It had the most 'DBZ-feel' to it. The final arc kept dragging on a tad too long. The good thing about the ending of GT, was it felt like an ending more than the end of Z.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:28 pm

After the Boo arc brought the original manga run to a much-needed end, with things having already reached the point of getting stale by the time the cyborgs showed up, GT brought us something much needed in Dragon Ball: A radical change in style.

GT is not a great series. It's definitely the weakest of the original three. But it tries a lot of new things, it has a cool vibe, it uses its characters well, it's a very ambitious series... I don't have any personal issues with GT.

Meanwhile, I do personally have issues with everyone piling on it to this day. Yes, I get it, everyone hates GT, haha, very funny, yes, very edgy, whatever...
I'm glad that these past few years, there has been something of a reassessment of GT. It's still considered the weakest, but the fandom's a little kinder to it these days. And positive opinions on it aren't quite as readily dismissed. I think a large part of it is that now we've seen how bad Dragon Ball can truly get, with Super descending the franchise to lows like we've never seen; rather than trying to run in place and recapture a magic that's long-past like Super did, GT moves on. Like Dragon Ball always did in the original run, GT tries new things, and moves ever forward. And unlike every other Dragon Ball series, GT actually has a decent sense of pacing...

But I understand this is just yet another GT hate topic, so I'll step out now that I've supplied the token "GT wasn't actually as bad as people say" post.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:30 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:28 pm
After the Boo arc brought the original manga run to a much-needed end, with things having already reached the point of getting stale by the time the cyborgs showed up, GT brought us something much needed in Dragon Ball: A radical change in style.

GT is not a great series. It's definitely the weakest of the original three. But it tries a lot of new things, it has a cool vibe, it uses its characters well, it's a very ambitious series... I don't have any personal issues with GT.

Meanwhile, I do personally have issues with everyone piling on it to this day. Yes, I get it, everyone hates GT, haha, very funny, yes, very edgy, whatever...
I'm glad that these past few years, there has been something of a reassessment of GT. It's still considered the weakest, but the fandom's a little kinder to it these days. And positive opinions on it aren't quite as readily dismissed. I think a large part of it is that now we've seen how bad Dragon Ball can truly get, with Super descending the franchise to lows like we've never seen; rather than trying to run in place and recapture a magic that's long-past like Super did, GT moves on. Like Dragon Ball always did in the original run, GT tries new things, and moves ever forward. And unlike every other Dragon Ball series, GT actually has a decent sense of pacing...

But I understand this is just yet another GT hate topic, so I'll step out now that I've supplied the token "GT wasn't actually as bad as people say" post.
Actually this wasn't a hate GT topic. I was simply saying the problems I had with it. I don't actually hate it. I liked the part with the introduction to SSJ4.

And as for Future Trunks and co's actions they are reckless. But not selfish, selfishness is when you do it for your own personal gain. Future Trunks did it for his world and his family and friends not for himself. Therefore his actions should be seen as reckless, not selfish. And they DEFINATELY DO NOT warrant the actions that Goku Black and Future Zamasu took against his timeline.

And the overuse of the Dragons Balls? That's ridiculous, just plain ridiculous. They wouldn't have had to use them so much if aliens hadn't come to conquer.
Last edited by Hulk10 on Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:38 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:30 pm
Actually this wasn't a hate GT topic. I was simply saying the problems I had with it. I don't actually hate it. I liked the part with the introduction to SSJ4.
Fair enough. Though the title does imply that, to be fair.

To briefly address the specific "Using the Dragon Balls is selfish" read, that's never how I saw it.

Personally, I always saw it more as just a sort of final challenge that "Now you can't rely on the Dragon Balls."

That, and/or "You've had a ride free of consequences for too long. Now you have to pay it back."

Think of how the Dragon Balls have been used... Vegeta killed a ton of people because he decided to throw a tantrum. He ends up never dealing with any real consequences of this specific action, and it's all undone.
Krillin wished #18's bomb gone.
Rather than seek out a new planet, the Namekians created a new one with the balls.
And of course, there are the evil wishes; Piccolo wished himself young, an act of pure selfishness.

The Dragon Balls had been an easy "Get out of jail free card" for a long time. So it makes sense that the story ends with people paying for the soup, so to speak.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:42 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:38 pm
Hulk10 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:30 pm
Actually this wasn't a hate GT topic. I was simply saying the problems I had with it. I don't actually hate it. I liked the part with the introduction to SSJ4.
Fair enough. Though the title does imply that, to be fair.

To briefly address the specific "Using the Dragon Balls is selfish" read, that's never how I saw it.

Personally, I always saw it more as just a sort of final challenge that "Now you can't rely on the Dragon Balls."

That, and/or "You've had a ride free of consequences for too long. Now you have to pay it back."

Think of how the Dragon Balls have been used... Vegeta killed a ton of people because he decided to throw a tantrum. He ends up never dealing with any real consequences of this specific action, and it's all undone.
Krillin wished #18's bomb gone.
Rather than seek out a new planet, the Namekians created a new one with the balls.
And of course, there are the evil wishes; Piccolo wished himself young, an act of pure selfishness.

The Dragon Balls had been an easy "Get out of jail free card" for a long time. So it makes sense that the story ends with people paying for the soup, so to speak.
I was under the impression that the Namekians actually found a new planet. Your viewpoint is valid also and your point about my title is as well.
Last edited by Hulk10 on Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by KBABZ » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:43 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:15 pm
The issue isn't what purpose the DB's were used for, it's that they were overused. It wasn't just an easy out for the characters, it was an easy out for the writer(s). There were no consequences and over time what limitations they had were lifted.
Agreed; I think it's especially noteworthy if you've watched the Buu saga recently. He's a terrifying menace to be sure, but the amount of times Goku or Piccolo say that the Earthlings can be restored with the Dragon Balls just to excuse them letting Buu do his thing and buy some more time is actually a bit disturbing considering they're supposed to be the heroes. Yes, there wasn't much that could be done, but the fact is that they were a bit too ready and casual about that being their only option. I think that's what the arc was getting at, not things like Goku wishing back Bora or Bulma wishing back Krillin, Roshi and Chaiotzu.

(you could see wishing masses of people back to life constantly as unnatural however given how Other World is supposed to work regarding how the dead are handled).
Hulk10 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:30 pm
And as for Future Trunks and co's actions they are reckless. But not selfish, selfishness is when you do it for your own personal gain. Future Trunks did it for his world and his family and friends not for himself. Therefore his actions should be seen as reckless, not selfish. And they DEFINATELY DO NOT warrant the actions that Goku Black and Future Zamasu took against his timeline.
I agree here too. I'm not entirely sure of the context as I haven't watched Super, however a consistent point that Dragon Ball makes with the gods is that they aren't infallible, and their rules and traditions aren't always what's called for. Shin takes Gohan to the Sacred World of the Kais for example, and Trunks is totally right in wanting to use a time machine to help better his future (it resulted in the timeline we all know now post-Cell, for one thing).
Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:38 pm
To briefly address the specific "Using the Dragon Balls is selfish" read, that's never how I saw it.

Personally, I always saw it more as just a sort of final challenge that "Now you can't rely on the Dragon Balls."
It also helps add that sense of finality to the story. The title objects of the series, and its main character, depart the world the story is in. There's a big sense of "and now the story is over" about it, but as the epilogue shows, life continues as well. Toriyama I think was hitting upon these ideas too with his ending(s) for the original manga, where Goku leaves with Uub and gives him the Nimbus.

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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:45 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:43 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:15 pm
The issue isn't what purpose the DB's were used for, it's that they were overused. It wasn't just an easy out for the characters, it was an easy out for the writer(s). There were no consequences and over time what limitations they had were lifted.
Agreed; I think it's especially noteworthy if you've watched the Buu saga recently. He's a terrifying menace to be sure, but the amount of times Goku or Piccolo say that the Earthlings can be restored with the Dragon Balls just to excuse them letting Buu do his thing and buy some more time is actually a bit disturbing considering they're supposed to be the heroes. Yes, there wasn't much that could be done, but the fact is that they were a bit too ready and casual about that being their only option. I think that's what the arc was getting at, not things like Goku wishing back Bora or Bulma wishing back Krillin, Roshi and Chaiotzu.

(you could see wishing masses of people back to life constantly as unnatural however given how Other World is supposed to work regarding how the dead are handled).
Hulk10 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:30 pm
And as for Future Trunks and co's actions they are reckless. But not selfish, selfishness is when you do it for your own personal gain. Future Trunks did it for his world and his family and friends not for himself. Therefore his actions should be seen as reckless, not selfish. And they DEFINATELY DO NOT warrant the actions that Goku Black and Future Zamasu took against his timeline.
I agree here too. I'm not entirely sure of the context as I haven't watched Super, however a consistent point that Dragon Ball makes with the gods is that they aren't infallible, and their rules and traditions aren't always what's called for. Shin takes Gohan to the Sacred World of the Kais for example, and Trunks is totally right in wanting to use a time machine to help better his future (it resulted in the timeline we all know now post-Cell, for one thing).
Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:38 pm
To briefly address the specific "Using the Dragon Balls is selfish" read, that's never how I saw it.

Personally, I always saw it more as just a sort of final challenge that "Now you can't rely on the Dragon Balls."
It also helps add that sense of finality to the story. The title objects of the series, and its main character, depart the world the story is in. There's a big sense of "and now the story is over" about it, but as the epilogue shows, life continues as well. Toriyama I think was hitting upon these ideas too with his ending(s) for the original manga, where Goku leaves with Uub and gives him the Nimbus.

Hmm yes good points.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:57 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:30 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:28 pm
After the Boo arc brought the original manga run to a much-needed end, with things having already reached the point of getting stale by the time the cyborgs showed up, GT brought us something much needed in Dragon Ball: A radical change in style.

GT is not a great series. It's definitely the weakest of the original three. But it tries a lot of new things, it has a cool vibe, it uses its characters well, it's a very ambitious series... I don't have any personal issues with GT.

Meanwhile, I do personally have issues with everyone piling on it to this day. Yes, I get it, everyone hates GT, haha, very funny, yes, very edgy, whatever...
I'm glad that these past few years, there has been something of a reassessment of GT. It's still considered the weakest, but the fandom's a little kinder to it these days. And positive opinions on it aren't quite as readily dismissed. I think a large part of it is that now we've seen how bad Dragon Ball can truly get, with Super descending the franchise to lows like we've never seen; rather than trying to run in place and recapture a magic that's long-past like Super did, GT moves on. Like Dragon Ball always did in the original run, GT tries new things, and moves ever forward. And unlike every other Dragon Ball series, GT actually has a decent sense of pacing...

But I understand this is just yet another GT hate topic, so I'll step out now that I've supplied the token "GT wasn't actually as bad as people say" post.
Actually this wasn't a hate GT topic. I was simply saying the problems I had with it. I don't actually hate it. I liked the part with the introduction to SSJ4.

And as for Future Trunks and co's actions they are reckless. But not selfish, selfishness is when you do it for your own personal gain. Future Trunks did it for his world and his family and friends not for himself. Therefore his actions should be seen as reckless, not selfish. And they DEFINATELY DO NOT warrant the actions that Goku Black and Future Zamasu took against his timeline.

And the overuse of the Dragons Balls? That's ridiculous, just plain ridiculous. They wouldn't have had to use them so much if aliens hadn't come to conquer.
No, selfish is when you consider only your own advantage when doing something, without taking into consideration what effects your actions might have on others. That is literally what Future Trunks did.

One of the most serious crimes against the laws of the gods did not warrant decisive action because…? Why should any god care about Trunks's intentions? He's just a mortal who, from their perspective, not only broke one of the most important laws of the gods but also ended up shattering reality itself (ask yourself why there were two Zamases). Even Beerus, who only sporadically tries to uphold the laws of the gods, was very serious on this point and actually destroyed the time machine Bulma had worked on for so long (he probably would have eradicated all of humanity if he did not feel attached to them).
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:05 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:57 pm
Hulk10 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:30 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:28 pm
After the Boo arc brought the original manga run to a much-needed end, with things having already reached the point of getting stale by the time the cyborgs showed up, GT brought us something much needed in Dragon Ball: A radical change in style.

GT is not a great series. It's definitely the weakest of the original three. But it tries a lot of new things, it has a cool vibe, it uses its characters well, it's a very ambitious series... I don't have any personal issues with GT.

Meanwhile, I do personally have issues with everyone piling on it to this day. Yes, I get it, everyone hates GT, haha, very funny, yes, very edgy, whatever...
I'm glad that these past few years, there has been something of a reassessment of GT. It's still considered the weakest, but the fandom's a little kinder to it these days. And positive opinions on it aren't quite as readily dismissed. I think a large part of it is that now we've seen how bad Dragon Ball can truly get, with Super descending the franchise to lows like we've never seen; rather than trying to run in place and recapture a magic that's long-past like Super did, GT moves on. Like Dragon Ball always did in the original run, GT tries new things, and moves ever forward. And unlike every other Dragon Ball series, GT actually has a decent sense of pacing...

But I understand this is just yet another GT hate topic, so I'll step out now that I've supplied the token "GT wasn't actually as bad as people say" post.
Actually this wasn't a hate GT topic. I was simply saying the problems I had with it. I don't actually hate it. I liked the part with the introduction to SSJ4.

And as for Future Trunks and co's actions they are reckless. But not selfish, selfishness is when you do it for your own personal gain. Future Trunks did it for his world and his family and friends not for himself. Therefore his actions should be seen as reckless, not selfish. And they DEFINATELY DO NOT warrant the actions that Goku Black and Future Zamasu took against his timeline.

And the overuse of the Dragons Balls? That's ridiculous, just plain ridiculous. They wouldn't have had to use them so much if aliens hadn't come to conquer.
No, selfish is when you consider only your own advantage when doing something, without taking into consideration what effects your actions might have on others. That is literally what Future Trunks did.

One of the most serious crimes against the laws of the gods did not warrant decisive action because…? Why should any god care about Trunks's intentions? He's just a mortal who, from their perspective, not only broke one of the most important laws of the gods but also ended up shattering reality itself (ask yourself why there were two Zamases). Even Beerus, the "oh so good Destroyer god", is very serious on this point and destroyed the time machine Bulma had worked on for so long (and probably Bulma too, if they were not friends).
No reckless because it wasn't just his own advantage that he was thinking about yes he was thinking about his advantage but he was also thinking about saving his friends and family. So doing something to benefit others in your world without thinking about the consequences is reckless not selfish. And nothing could warrant complete annihilation of all mortal life. Destroying the Time Machine was a good idea, but wiping out all mortal life and the other gods? No. There is no cause for that, no reason at all.

Zamasu proves the point that the gods are not infallible. And their rules can become outdated. Also lets not forget that one of the other Universes has a Time Machine too. Its in the possession of a Supreme Kai but it still exists so the gods can be tolerant of it. But none of them except for that awful Zamasu would wipe out mortal life in all the universes and all the other gods. So Zamasu is the real villain, the real troublemaker.

While I shall not yield in my stance I can see that this debate about Time Travel is pointless and I have no desire to continue.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Mister_Popo » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:51 pm

It's perfectly fine people prefer GT over Super. I experience Super has a tad more of the old magic. But it's perfectly fine to prefer GT.
One should however realize, GT isn't flawless as well IMO as a continuation of the original manga.

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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:57 pm

I don't prefer one over the other. But both have points that IMUHO are silly and pointless.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Vijay » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:51 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:36 pm
I liked the first part of GT, the ascension to Super Saiyan 4 and stuff like that but I didn't like the Shadow Dragon Saga simply due to the fact that it portrayed the use of the Dragon Balls to undo the damage caused by alien invasions as being selfish........... Which it wasn't.

The Goku Black Saga wasn't much better for much the same reasons. Though Time Travel is a different ballgame than using the Dragon Balls.
Personal issues need to be settled personally. But since u shared, I'd give my thoughts

GT logic = crap

Simple as that. But if you dig deep beyond it's superficial surface, you'll get nowhere. After all, it's pure sales/merchandise-driven show to cash on DragonBall's popularity...

They did have a point though....one's selflessness maybe seen as selfishness from another person's perspective. Take Goku for example. For years dude have fought to protect Earth & universe...and yet douchebags criticize him as selfish prick

My major prob was the....Dragon themselves...they're hardly even dragons/shenrons. Green Toad, pink duck & Mole are Shenron? Dafuq?!!!

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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by ABED » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:48 pm

My feelings towards GT has changed over the years. Like everyone, I hated it at first, then I found it boring, then I felt like it was okay and kinda underrated, and now I think it's mostly boring but has its moments. Had it come out these days, I think I'd feel the say way about it I do about most revivals - bored.

All of DB was done to make money... ALL. OF. IT. GT isn't any more guilty of it than any other series.

I don't know if GT's logic is really any worse than anything else from DB, though, not that it really matters as I don't think that really matters to most people in the long run. It's just a poorly executed show. The action is bland and that's arguably the single biggest thing they had to get right.
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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:59 pm

I don't have a problem with the DBs being the final threat and having big consequences from the overuse of them. My problem lies on the characters, the dragons don't seem like real threats until the twins show up and they are all dealt by Goku (and Pan).
They went for the humour with most of them but to me it just fell flat, specially with a situation that looked so serious. And the awful designs.

We had 7 enemies and Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan, Goten, Uub waiting in the dugout, a great chance for almost each one of them to shine on their own and give Goku a well-deserved rest but none of them do a thing until the last dragon and even then they just help Goku power up, and they were already treated like fodder in the previous 2 arcs, so it was more of the previous dynamic that to me became repetitive and boring... until the twins and Ih Shenron spiced things up.

Bonus track: I remember watching that arc as a kid through the spanish dub box-set, I couldn't get ahold of all of them, only a few and scattered episodes/arcs, so I would watch a set of 3 episodes of Goku and Pan fighting against the rain dragon or the tornado dragon and wonder what the hell happened to Vegeta? where is Trunks? he was a main-starter in the first episodes, did they die? Gohan died in the previous arc by the hand of that beast Super 17 was?

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Re: Personal Issues With Dragon Ball GT

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:18 am

Hulk10 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:05 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:57 pm
Hulk10 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:30 pm


Actually this wasn't a hate GT topic. I was simply saying the problems I had with it. I don't actually hate it. I liked the part with the introduction to SSJ4.

And as for Future Trunks and co's actions they are reckless. But not selfish, selfishness is when you do it for your own personal gain. Future Trunks did it for his world and his family and friends not for himself. Therefore his actions should be seen as reckless, not selfish. And they DEFINATELY DO NOT warrant the actions that Goku Black and Future Zamasu took against his timeline.

And the overuse of the Dragons Balls? That's ridiculous, just plain ridiculous. They wouldn't have had to use them so much if aliens hadn't come to conquer.
No, selfish is when you consider only your own advantage when doing something, without taking into consideration what effects your actions might have on others. That is literally what Future Trunks did.

One of the most serious crimes against the laws of the gods did not warrant decisive action because…? Why should any god care about Trunks's intentions? He's just a mortal who, from their perspective, not only broke one of the most important laws of the gods but also ended up shattering reality itself (ask yourself why there were two Zamases). Even Beerus, the "oh so good Destroyer god", is very serious on this point and destroyed the time machine Bulma had worked on for so long (and probably Bulma too, if they were not friends).
No reckless because it wasn't just his own advantage that he was thinking about yes he was thinking about his advantage but he was also thinking about saving his friends and family. So doing something to benefit others in your world without thinking about the consequences is reckless not selfish. And nothing could warrant complete annihilation of all mortal life. Destroying the Time Machine was a good idea, but wiping out all mortal life and the other gods? No. There is no cause for that, no reason at all.

Zamasu proves the point that the gods are not infallible. And their rules can become outdated. Also lets not forget that one of the other Universes has a Time Machine too. Its in the possession of a Supreme Kai but it still exists so the gods can be tolerant of it. But none of them except for that awful Zamasu would wipe out mortal life in all the universes and all the other gods. So Zamasu is the real villain, the real troublemaker.

While I shall not yield in my stance I can see that this debate about Time Travel is pointless and I have no desire to continue.
That's why he see his selfish. Okay, he saved his family and friends on Earth. There is an entire reality beyond the Earth. A reality that was irreversibly shattered by his time travel.

How do the rules of the gods become "outdated"? They've literally existed since forever and you can't even say that they are false laws because we have visibly seen the dire ramifications of time travel. The gods are tolerant of time travel because only THEY can use it, and indeed that time machine of Universe 12 was confiscated by the Supreme Kai of that universe. That is nothing new though, we already know Kais are allowed to time travel, but only to the future and only for a very specific purpose. The Destroyers meanwhile are forbidden from time travelling too. The gods are very strict when it comes to this. I already brought up Beerus' example, I could bring up Gowasu's too. Upon seeing the time rings created by the warping Trunks caused, he comments on how foolish someone would be to do such a thing.

Also, yeah, I guess you're right. There's nothing that warrants universal genocide. But is it real such a big deal? I mean, Goku is all friendly and stuff with a guy who destroyed trillions of innocents for fun, so I don't see what the problem is.
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