is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

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is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Shintoki » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:11 pm

considering they are in the same world, and are linked wouldn't dragon ball be technically a spin off of dr slump?

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Ryuji-Otogi » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:24 pm

Nah, the word ‘spin-off’ isn’t really appropriate here. You’ll never see anyone describe Dragon Ball Z as a spin-off of Dr. Slump.Dragon Ball and Dr Slump are their own things. Toriyama just thought it would be fun to connect the two.

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Shintoki » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:29 pm

Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:24 pm
Nah, the word ‘spin-off’ isn’t really appropriate here. You’ll never see anyone describe Dragon Ball Z as a spin-off of Dr. Slump.Dragon Ball and Dr Slump are their own things. Toriyama just thought it would be fun to connect the two.
spin off is defined as: ''a by-product or incidental result of a larger project.'' I don't see what's not appropriate about it. Toriyama was already connecting works before dragon ball came along, he just continued that habit.

I don't think counting on mainstream's mindset is a good idea...

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:43 pm

It's important to note that the crossover with Dr. Slump wasn't an instant thing. It wasn't until the middle of the Red Ribbon arc, 81 chapters in and almost two years after the manga began, that the Dr. Slump crossover actually happened. There were of course some references before that (such as Pilaf berating Mai for using Dr. Slump's brand of humour, and Bulma's fridge being a Penguin brand), but those are references, not signs of Dragon Ball being a spin-off.

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:02 am

I don't think it fits in this case. There is nothing in Dr. Slump that begets Dragon Ball (at least, not as far as I know). You could read the entirety of Dr. Slump and find hide nor hair of anything Dragon Ball-related. Dragon Ball is created entirely independently of Dr. Slump. Later on, they have a crossover together within Dragon Ball. But in order for a property to spin off another property, there must be some kernel of the newer property created in the older.

Laverne & Shirley is a spinoff of Happy Days because the titular characters of the former were introduced in the latter. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine could be considered a spinoff of Star Trek: The Next Generation because the Bajoran and Cardassian species were introduced in TNG as was the character Miles O'Brien, a recurring character in TNG who was spun off as a main character into DS9. The first episode of DS9 features Captain Picard and the Enterprise from TNG as guest stars giving the new show its sendoff. Again, this is very different from the relationship between Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball. A spinoff situation is akin to a parent/child relationship. Theirs is more of siblings.
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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Shintoki » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:05 am

KBABZ wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:43 pm
It's important to note that the crossover with Dr. Slump wasn't an instant thing. It wasn't until the middle of the Red Ribbon arc, 81 chapters in and almost two years after the manga began, that the Dr. Slump crossover actually happened. There were of course some references before that (such as Pilaf berating Mai for using Dr. Slump's brand of humour, and Bulma's fridge being a Penguin brand), but those are references, not signs of Dragon Ball being a spin-off.
I feel the ''instant'' mindset thing is a bit faulty, let me give an example with another work; when FF 10 came out, it stood alone as a separate work like all FF games traditionally did. but when FFX 2 came out and started referencing FFVII; The mainstream of the fandom of course didn't accept that, not till the authors officially confirmed it.

Nobody would say it's not exactly a ''prequel'' because it wasn't ''instant''. but I get your point it didn't happen right away.

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Shintoki » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:14 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:02 am
I don't think it fits in this case. There is nothing in Dr. Slump that begets Dragon Ball (at least, not as far as I know). You could read the entirety of Dr. Slump and find hide nor hair of anything Dragon Ball-related. Dragon Ball is created entirely independently of Dr. Slump. Later on, they have a crossover together within Dragon Ball. But in order for a property to spin off another property, there must be some kernel of the newer property created in the older.

Laverne & Shirley is a spinoff of Happy Days because the titular characters of the former were introduced in the latter. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine could be considered a spinoff of Star Trek: The Next Generation because the Bajoran and Cardassian species were introduced in TNG as was the character Miles O'Brien, a recurring character in TNG who was spun off as a main character into DS9. The first episode of DS9 features Captain Picard and the Enterprise from TNG as guest stars giving the new show its sendoff. Again, this is very different from the relationship between Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball. A spinoff situation is akin to a parent/child relationship. Theirs is more of siblings.
there must be some kernel of the newer property created in the older.
that's the issue, conditioning related works to things besides sharing the same world.

par example, monsters by Oda sensei is where ''ruyma'' is introduced and later on, ''re-introduced'' in one piece plot thus illmunating that they are the same world. yet most people would not know of it or know how to feel about it. it's the same thing here. dr slump is where ''arale'' is introduced to us (the audience) and later on, ''re-introduced'' in dragon ball

note that there is a reason the word ''spin off'' exist when the word ''sequel and its variations'' does, it's because the word sequel can only refer to works that predate, happens alongside or afterwards that are related to the works. spin of exist as a secondary term to refer to works that are not connected to the other works directly other than sharing the same world

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:37 am

Shintoki wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:14 am
there must be some kernel of the newer property created in the older.
that's the issue, conditioning related works to things besides sharing the same world.
It's not really an "issue." It's simply what the word means: a radio program, television program, video game, film, or any narrative work, derived from already existing works that focuses on more details and different aspects from the original work.

The word "spin off" is a very functional word. The word describes what it is. The older work serves as a launching point for a new one to spin off of it. Yes, spin offs often share universes (but not always). But a shared universe does not necessarily mean one is a spinoff of the other. Like you said, we have specific words used for specific situations. Dragon Ball and Dr. Slump only connect in a crossover. That's not the same thing.

I don't see how Arale's presence in your example would cause it to be considered a spinoff. Characters from other works guest star in other shows all the time. Steve Urkel, for crying out loud, guest starred in Full House, and those shows are in no way even remotely connected in a spinoff sense. The X-Men have had comic book adventures with Star Trek. Luke Skywalker and C-3PO shared the screen with Miss Piggy. Jeannie from I Dream of Jeannie cameos in A Very Brady Sequel. But it'd be silly to suggest that The Muppet Show is a spinoff of Star Wars or that any of those examples are spinoffs.
spin of exist as a secondary term to refer to works that are not connected to the other works directly other than sharing the same world
I again refer to the definition I provided at the beginning. What you're saying here is not an accurate definition of what a spinoff is, I'm afraid.
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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Shintoki » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:15 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:37 am
Shintoki wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:14 am
there must be some kernel of the newer property created in the older.
that's the issue, conditioning related works to things besides sharing the same world.
It's not really an "issue." It's simply what the word means: a radio program, television program, video game, film, or any narrative work, derived from already existing works that focuses on more details and different aspects from the original work.

The word "spin off" is a very functional word. The word describes what it is. The older work serves as a launching point for a new one to spin off of it. Yes, spin offs often share universes (but not always). But a shared universe does not necessarily mean one is a spinoff of the other. Like you said, we have specific words used for specific situations. Dragon Ball and Dr. Slump only connect in a crossover. That's not the same thing.

I don't see how Arale's presence in your example would cause it to be considered a spinoff. Characters from other works guest star in other shows all the time. Steve Urkel, for crying out loud, guest starred in Full House, and those shows are in no way even remotely connected in a spinoff sense. The X-Men have had comic book adventures with Star Trek. Luke Skywalker and C-3PO shared the screen with Miss Piggy. Jeannie from I Dream of Jeannie cameos in A Very Brady Sequel. But it'd be silly to suggest that The Muppet Show is a spinoff of Star Wars or that any of those examples are spinoffs.
spin of exist as a secondary term to refer to works that are not connected to the other works directly other than sharing the same world
I again refer to the definition I provided at the beginning. What you're saying here is not an accurate definition of what a spinoff is, I'm afraid.
welp
It's not really an "issue." It's simply what the word means: a radio program, television program, video game, film, or any narrative work, derived from already existing works that focuses on more details and different aspects from the original work.
you're confusing/mixing sequel definition with spin off my friend.

''sequel: a published, broadcast, or recorded work that continues the story or develops the theme of an earlier one.''

the ''derived from already existing works that focuses on more details and different aspects from the original work'' mindset translate to: if it doesn't focus in the original work then it's not a spin off'' which is exactly what the word sequel is there for but that got ignored :think:

if we go by ''your'' definition then a lot of works with the relation like magic kaito and detective conan would not be considered ''spin-offs'' even though they are. it's clearly unworkable universally
spin offs often share universes (but not always)
you can't be a spin off if you are not in the same world at bare minimum. otherwise that's what the words ''spiritual successor'' or in some cases, ''pseudo sequels'' exist for.
Dragon Ball and Dr. Slump only connect in a crossover.
it's more than just a crossover though, otherwise by that logic ryuma from one piece is also just a crossover... :wtf:
I don't see how Arale's presence in your example would cause it to be considered a spinoff.

they are different works, share the same world, and interact with each other but are not directly tied. if that's not a spin off I don't know what is
The X-Men have had comic book adventures with Star Trek
not canonical and star wars have canoncity issues. better find good a example my friend.
But it'd be silly to suggest that The Muppet Show is a spinoff of Star Wars or that any of those examples are spinoffs.
I don't think you understand what ''canon means to being a spin-off''
I again refer to the definition I provided at the beginning. What you're saying here is not an accurate definition of what a spinoff is, I'm afraid
the definition you provided is again, subjectively offered by you. I don't see why me being inaccurate about ''it'' would not be the case when i'm telling and standing about how that definition is just not workable universally.

a universal definition for a spin off it being a canonical by-product of its processor but is not a ''sequel'' which lines up with the dictionary definition.

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by mute_proxy » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:43 am

It's not. The stuff we see connecting the series are called crossovers and references.

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:00 am

Is Batman technically a spin-off of Superman?

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:13 am

The Flash TV series (and the other DC-based TV shows) is regarded as a "spin off" of the Arrow TV series. That is because Barry Allen first appeared in Arrow and then he got himself his own series, so him and his series "spun off" of/from Arrow.

Never watched Doctor Slump, but if Goku/Dragon Ball came from it, then yeah, it would make Dragon Ball a spin-off of Doctor Slump.

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:19 am

Sequel: A follow-up to the original work that continues the story after the first one ended, in a manner as "big" as the original. GT and Super are this.
Prequel: A story that takes place before the original work that explains, elaborates on, or otherwise links up to something the audience has heard about in the main work. Jaco, DB- and the Bardock/Trunks OVAs are this.*
Crossover: A story that takes one work and has it interact with another one. The Dr. Slump episodes and the Super Collaboration Special are this.
Spin-off: A non-primary part of a work is told as its own story, most often while the original carries on. So far Dragon Ball doesn't technically have one, but Reincarnated as Yamcha and Neko Majin come pretty close.
One-Shot: A one-off story that typically stands on its own, but is otherwise only tangental to another work as far as the story goes. This is where Reincarnated and Neko Majin truly fall.

*The OG Dragon Ball anime is NOT because it's part of the same story Z is, and wasn't created to explain or elaborate on anything in Z as it didn't exist yet.

So here's the thing. It's impossible to have a retroactive spin-off. That's just not how that works. The reason spin-offs are made is because the creators feel an interesting part of the original (that either already exists in the work or is being purposefully introduced now) has potential to be its own story, hopefully as big as the original. Dr. Slump didn't even exist within Dragon Ball until the crossover happened. If a sequel Dr. Slump series started as a result of the crossover and it had obvious Dragon Ball elements in it, THAT would be a spin-off.

If you felt that the Dr. Slump manga happened in the Dragon World because of the crossovers, then that would be considered Canon Welding, not a spin-off.
Grimlock wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:13 am
Never watched Doctor Slump, but if Goku/Dragon Ball came from it, then yeah, it would make Dragon Ball a spin-off of Doctor Slump.
Dragon Ball existed in no fashion until Toriyama had finished Dr. Slump.

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:30 am

Then yeah, no. Dragon Ball is not a spin-off of Doctor Slump.

The example I provided just above fits and it's pretty spot on the actual meaning of spin-off (taking something from a existed work and expand on it in other material). Another clear example would be Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, obviously a spin off of Harry Potter, where the former is referenced quite a few times throughout the series of the latter.

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Shintoki » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:33 am

KBABZ wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:19 am
Sequel: A follow-up to the original work that continues the story after the first one ended, in a manner as "big" as the original. GT and Super are this.
Prequel: A story that takes place before the original work that explains, elaborates on, or otherwise links up to something the audience has heard about in the main work. Jaco, DB- and the Bardock/Trunks OVAs are this.*
Crossover: A story that takes one work and has it interact with another one. The Dr. Slump episodes and the Super Collaboration Special are this.
Spin-off: A non-primary part of a work is told as its own story, most often while the original carries on. So far Dragon Ball doesn't technically have one, but Reincarnated as Yamcha and Neko Majin come pretty close.
One-Shot: A one-off story that typically stands on its own, but is otherwise only tangental to another work as far as the story goes. This is where Reincarnated and Neko Majin truly fall.

*The OG Dragon Ball anime is NOT because it's part of the same story Z is, and wasn't created to explain or elaborate on anything in Z as it didn't exist yet.

So here's the thing. It's impossible to have a retroactive spin-off. That's just not how that works. The reason spin-offs are made is because the creators feel an interesting part of the original (that either already exists in the work or is being purposefully introduced now) has potential to be its own story, hopefully as big as the original. Dr. Slump didn't even exist within Dragon Ball until the crossover happened. If a sequel Dr. Slump series started as a result of the crossover and it had obvious Dragon Ball elements in it, THAT would be a spin-off.

If you felt that the Dr. Slump manga happened in the Dragon World because of the crossovers, then that would be considered Canon Welding, not a spin-off.
Grimlock wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:13 am
Never watched Doctor Slump, but if Goku/Dragon Ball came from it, then yeah, it would make Dragon Ball a spin-off of Doctor Slump.
Dragon Ball existed in no fashion until Toriyama had finished Dr. Slump.
crossovers are by definition aren't canonical though. I don't want to strawman you so I must ask what do you mean by ''dragon ball'' and ''dr slump'' is just a crossover? because that implies they are not canonical to each other


note: that said, I really wouldn't recommend using ''tvtrope'' stuff, they are notorious for good reasons. eg: ''quantum canon'' (come on, how do you expect anyone to take that seriously...) and even then their terms imply that the works weren't canonical to each other originally. which is not true when you take context into consideration.

toriyama was fusing his works together habitually before dr slump and after it to dragon ball.

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:50 am

I mostly agree with everything Lance has said, but I'm simultaneously also willing to go down the rabbit hole of having the conversation... in which case you actually have to ask, "Is everything just a spin-off of Wonder Island?"

(I'm actually all for trying to find links between everything and seeing how much they work as taking place in the same universe, but I think defining it as anything more than that is a bit of a fool's errand at the end of the day.)
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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:03 am

Has anyone here heard of the late, great Dwayne McDuffie's Tommy Westphall Grand Unification Theory? This discussion made me think of his essay. I won't reiterate it all here because it's long and there are entire sites dedicated to just how far it reaches, but his conclusion at the end of his essay (the link is down below) was that crossovers are simply meant to be fun and cross series continuity is absurd, so just enjoy the show.

https://matweller.wordpress.com/2012/11 ... -mcduffie/
crossovers are by definition aren't canonical though.
That's not true. The MCU and Arrowverse crossovers are canonical, but many crossovers aren't.
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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:37 am

ABED wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:03 am
Has anyone here heard of the late, great Dwayne McDuffie's Tommy Westphall Grand Unification Theory? This discussion made me think of his essay. I won't reiterate it all here because it's long and there are entire sites dedicated to just how far it reaches, but his conclusion at the end of his essay (the link is down below) was that crossovers are simply meant to be fun and cross series continuity is absurd, so just enjoy the show.

https://matweller.wordpress.com/2012/11 ... -mcduffie/
Oh, definitely. When I mentioned Full House and Family Matters crossing over, it made me think of that because I'm pretty sure those are both included in this (if memory serves).
Shintoki wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:15 am
spin offs often share universes (but not always)
you can't be a spin off if you are not in the same world at bare minimum. otherwise that's what the words ''spiritual successor'' or in some cases, ''pseudo sequels'' exist for.
In the '80s a show named Dallas spun off a show called Knots Landing. Dallas killed off the character of Bobby Ewing but later decided that was a bad idea and decided the whole season was a dream in order to bring him back to life. Knott's Landing didn't like that and wanted to keep the idea of Bobby being dead as part of their continuity. So at that point, they completely branched off into two different paths. So, yes, you can have a spinoff that ultimately exists in its own universe.
the definition you provided is again, subjectively offered by you. I don't see why me being inaccurate about ''it'' would not be the case when i'm telling and standing about how that definition is just not workable universally.
Do you think I just made up that definition? No. I didn't.
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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:35 am

It’s not a spin off anymore than the 2009 Friday the 13 reboot is a spin off of Bayformers just because they share a character and thus take place in the same universe.

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Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:43 am

Shintoki wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:33 am
crossovers are by definition aren't canonical though. I don't want to strawman you so I must ask what do you mean by ''dragon ball'' and ''dr slump'' is just a crossover? because that implies they are not canonical to each other
Not necessarily. There's very little in Dr. Slump that truly contradicts Dragon Ball, especially since it hasn't really been developed since it was originally finished. There's enough that you can say it either makes Dr. Slump canon with Dragon Ball, or that it was just a fun story moment that's more akin to visiting another universe. The story keeps it vague.
Shintoki wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:33 am
note: that said, I really wouldn't recommend using ''tvtrope'' stuff, they are notorious for good reasons. eg: ''quantum canon'' (come on, how do you expect anyone to take that seriously...) and even then their terms imply that the works weren't canonical to each other originally. which is not true when you take context into consideration.
Disagree. It has weird names for sure, but it's mostly infamous for smart-alec users holding it up as evidence that all stories (or a specific story they hate) sucks and nothing is original. I don't see it that way, and often they are presenting ideas and mechanics of the story as just that. It can be useful in helping appreciate and understand a story or character and how it might be similar to other works, for example. But you aren't automatically "better" for knowing that stuff.

Anyways, as I mentioned earlier, the main problem people are having with your argument is that spin-offs don't happen retroactively. That's not how that word works by definition. Watchmen being absorbed into the DC Comics universe does not mean Watchmen is now a spin-off of DC Comics.

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