is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Dr. Casey
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:05 pm

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Dr. Casey » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:06 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:37 am
Steve Urkel, for crying out loud, guest starred in Full House, and those shows are in no way even remotely connected in a spinoff sense.
When I read the first two words of the sentence, I thought it was leading up to saying that Steve Urkel made a cameo in Dragon Ball. I am disappoint.
Princess Snake avatars courtesy of Kunzait, Chibi Goku avatar from Velasa.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I Live Here
Posts: 3298
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:09 am

Shintoki wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:33 am

crossovers are by definition aren't canonical though
.
This is not even remotely true and I have no idea where you even came up with that notion.

ABED wrote:
crossovers are by definition aren't canonical though.
That's not true. The MCU and Arrowverse crossovers are canonical, but many crossovers aren't.
I would say a significant portion of cross overs in fiction tend to be canonical

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18768
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:17 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:09 am
Shintoki wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:33 am

crossovers are by definition aren't canonical though
.
This is not even remotely true and I have no idea where you even came up with that notion.

ABED wrote:
crossovers are by definition aren't canonical though.
That's not true. The MCU and Arrowverse crossovers are canonical, but many crossovers aren't.
I would say a significant portion of cross overs in fiction tend to be canonical
Not to beat up on Shintoki, I don't know how anyone reaches that obviously false conclusion. Arguably the most ubiquitous franchise in pop culture (the MCU) proves that point to be untrue.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Ryuji-Otogi
Banned
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat May 19, 2012 3:30 am

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Ryuji-Otogi » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:07 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:17 am
MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:09 am
Shintoki wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:33 am

crossovers are by definition aren't canonical though
.
This is not even remotely true and I have no idea where you even came up with that notion.

ABED wrote: That's not true. The MCU and Arrowverse crossovers are canonical, but many crossovers aren't.
I would say a significant portion of cross overs in fiction tend to be canonical
Not to beat up on Shintoki, I don't know how anyone reaches that obviously false conclusion. Arguably the most ubiquitous franchise in pop culture (the MCU) proves that point to be untrue.
I think they probably meant anime cross overs. Things like Goku meets Luffy obviously aren’t canon.

Vijay
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1307
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:48 am

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Vijay » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:25 pm

It's technically a spin-off of Star Wars, CA: The Winter Soldier, John Wick 3: Parabellum, Pursuit of Happiness, Titanic, Alien vs Predator and a handful of other films

Dude, Dr. Slump was gag series. DB was shounen. That alone makes both shows distinctively different. And I'mma gonna pretend ur oblivious to AT bein inspired by classic Chinese mythology tale: Journey to the West makin Goku = Wukong

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I Live Here
Posts: 3298
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:46 pm

Vijay wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:25 pm


Dude, Dr. Slump was gag series. DB was shounen.
I have no clue why you think those two are mutually exclusive things. Shounen isn’t a genre it’s a demographic. Dr.Slump is shounen too. It appeared in the same magazine as Dragon Ball by the same publisher.

And Dragon Ball WAS a gag series to begin with and even after it evolved to something more straight forward it never completely shed its gag roots.

t. And I'mma gonna pretend ur oblivious to AT bein inspired by classic Chinese mythology tale: Journey to the West makin Goku = Wukong
This doesn’t really have to do with anything either. I mean, yeah, Dragon Ball is not a spin-off of Dr.Slump but Dragon Ball being inspired, initially, by Journey to the West wouldn’t disqualify it from being a spin-off series.

User avatar
Travis Touchdown
Regular
Posts: 733
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:14 pm
Contact:

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Travis Touchdown » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:34 am

I wouldn’t call Dragon Ball a spin-off of Dr. Slump anymore than I’d say Batman is a spin-off of Superman. They’re their own distinct independent stories that take place in the same world and occasionally meet up with each other.
"Hey girlfriend, why don't you throw a few more punches? Afraid you might break a nail or somethin?"
Ken - Street Fighter II

User avatar
Shintoki
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:32 am

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Shintoki » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:52 am

ABED wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:03 am
Has anyone here heard of the late, great Dwayne McDuffie's Tommy Westphall Grand Unification Theory? This discussion made me think of his essay. I won't reiterate it all here because it's long and there are entire sites dedicated to just how far it reaches, but his conclusion at the end of his essay (the link is down below) was that crossovers are simply meant to be fun and cross series continuity is absurd, so just enjoy the show.

https://matweller.wordpress.com/2012/11 ... -mcduffie/
crossovers are by definition aren't canonical though.
That's not true. The MCU and Arrowverse crossovers are canonical, but many crossovers aren't.
You're kinda contradicting yourself. You can't say well This crossover is canonical while this crossover isn't. In the same sense you can't say this sequel is a sequel despite not being canonical because it is not canonical it therefore is not a sequel since it never happened thus not geniune to that work. it's the same principle in here

Crossover is means continuities that cross into each other for fun. think of : dream 7 of one piece x bleach x one piece

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rfw3oPAV7M

whatever is tied canonically wouldn't be considered ''exactly'' a crossover unless by crossover you mean two canonically tied works that are separated but occassionally cross into each other for fun which kinda doesn't have to do with the strict version. sorry if I sound pedant in here but that's because of how its' defined where I'm from (france)
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:37 am


In the '80s a show named Dallas spun off a show called Knots Landing. Dallas killed off the character of Bobby Ewing but later decided that was a bad idea and decided the whole season was a dream in order to bring him back to life. Knott's Landing didn't like that and wanted to keep the idea of Bobby being dead as part of their continuity. So at that point, they completely branched off into two different paths. So, yes, you can have a spinoff that ultimately exists in its own universe.
that means it become 2 separate continuities though, and obviously the owner of the copyrights will have their continuity be recongnized as the canonical one
Do you think I just made up that definition? No. I didn't.
no, of course not, what I'm saying is the narration you offer is not universally workable. it's not a bad def per say



KBABZ wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:43 am

Not necessarily. There's very little in Dr. Slump that truly contradicts Dragon Ball, especially since it hasn't really been developed since it was originally finished. There's enough that you can say it either makes Dr. Slump canon with Dragon Ball, or that it was just a fun story moment that's more akin to visiting another universe. The story keeps it vague.
Dr slump is confined within pinguin village though. which puts it at a safe spot, especially because of its relation to the RRA plot. i'm not sure what you mean by another universe but if you mean dr slump and dragon world are two different linked worlds then I whole heartedly agree.
Anyways, as I mentioned earlier, the main problem people are having with your argument is that spin-offs don't happen retroactively. That's not how that word works by definition. Watchmen being absorbed into the DC Comics universe does not mean Watchmen is now a spin-off of DC Comics.
I understand and apologise if someone misunderstood me then, my intention wasn't to argue that retroactive merging of two originally separate works makes something a spin off (it doesn't) :crazy: rather that a series of works that get hinted at being related and later on turns out to be so during the story are. :) hope that clarified what I'm talking about
VegettoEX wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:50 am
I mostly agree with everything Lance has said, but I'm simultaneously also willing to go down the rabbit hole of having the conversation... in which case you actually have to ask, "Is everything just a spin-off of Wonder Island?"

(I'm actually all for trying to find links between everything and seeing how much they work as taking place in the same universe, but I think defining it as anything more than that is a bit of a fool's errand at the end of the day.)
"Is everything just a spin-off of Wonder Island?"

I really did! :D Once I read almost all of toriyama works, I couldn't but help notice a pattern of what would later on become a tori tradition!

one can really confirm this kind of stuff simply by comparing maps of dr slump world and dragon world; par example: You can see that wonder island is missing in the dragon world map but is present in dr slump map! one could say that they are two different linked worlds!

by the way, is there a podcast about this topic, if so Would like to listen to! :thumbup:

User avatar
Shintoki
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:32 am

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Shintoki » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:58 am

After reviewing my mindset, I suppose the answer I was looking for is: is wonder island the start of it all? and in that case, I think I kinda found my answer, thanks for sharing your precious time everyone!

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18768
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:18 am

Shintoki wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:52 am
You're kinda contradicting yourself. You can't say well This crossover is canonical while this crossover isn't. In the same sense you can't say this sequel is a sequel despite not being canonical because it is not canonical it therefore is not a sequel since it never happened thus not geniune to that work. it's the same principle in here

Crossover is means continuities that cross into each other for fun. think of : dream 7 of one piece x bleach x one piece

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rfw3oPAV7M

whatever is tied canonically wouldn't be considered ''exactly'' a crossover unless by crossover you mean two canonically tied works that are separated but occassionally cross into each other for fun which kinda doesn't have to do with the strict version. sorry if I sound pedant in here but that's because of how its' defined where I'm from (france)
It doesn't sound pedantic as much as plain confusing. Of course you can say one crossover is canonical, and this crossover isn't. It's not a binary thing. I don't know where you got the idea that two works that share the same continuity aren't technically a crossover.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I Live Here
Posts: 3298
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:19 am

Shintoki wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:52 am

You're kinda contradicting yourself. You can't say well This crossover is canonical while this crossover isn't. In the same sense you can't say this sequel is a sequel despite not being canonical because it is not canonical it therefore is not a sequel since it never happened thus not geniune to that work.
He’s not contradicting himself and not a single think you said was correct. Crossovers can be canon and some aren’t. There is no hard and fast rule.

And something can be a sequel and then later declared non-canon. The Halloween franchise is a good example. Halloween 4-6 are sequels and in the same canon as 1 and 2. But H20 is only a sequel to 1 and 2 and drops 4-6. And the most recent Halloween film is only a sequel to the 1978 film and drops everything from the previous films in its canon. And then you have Halloween 3 which is still a sequel but is in its own canon where the first movie was just a movie.
Crossover is means continuities that cross into each other for fun. think of : dream 7 of one piece x bleach x one piece
No it doesn’t. A crossover just involves characters from separate stories crossing over. Hercules and Xena had multiple crossovers and take place in the same canon.
Same with Buffy and Angel.

Your entire frame of reference for crossovers seems to be kids anime movies which hardly ever had much regard to continuity to begin with.

User avatar
Shintoki
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:32 am

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Shintoki » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:27 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:19 am
Shintoki wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:52 am

You're kinda contradicting yourself. You can't say well This crossover is canonical while this crossover isn't. In the same sense you can't say this sequel is a sequel despite not being canonical because it is not canonical it therefore is not a sequel since it never happened thus not geniune to that work.
He’s not contradicting himself and not a single think you said was correct. Crossovers can be canon and some aren’t. There is no hard and fast rule.

And something can be a sequel and then later declared non-canon. The Halloween franchise is a good example. Halloween 4-6 are sequels and in the same canon as 1 and 2. But H20 is only a sequel to 1 and 2 and drops 4-6. And the most recent Halloween film is only a sequel to the 1978 film and drops everything from the previous films in its canon. And then you have Halloween 3 which is still a sequel but is in its own canon where the first movie was just a movie.
Crossover is means continuities that cross into each other for fun. think of : dream 7 of one piece x bleach x one piece
No it doesn’t. A crossover just involves characters from separate stories crossing over. Hercules and Xena had multiple crossovers and take place in the same canon.
Same with Buffy and Angel.

Your entire frame of reference for crossovers seems to be kids anime movies which hardly ever had much regard to continuity to begin with.
...calling my references as entirely ''kids anime movies'' is a bit far fetched, that wasn't even a movie. :wtf: whether you consider one piece a kids show or not is up to you. but I digress

let me put it this way. if something is not canonical, then it's neither a sequel, spin off, or any other statue to the work in my book. same way GT is not a spin off of dragon ball (canon) to me. retcons don't change that

whether you disagree or agree with that is up to you. :roll:

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18768
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:28 am

Crossovers can occur between two or more properties set in the same universe (MCU, Arrowverse, Buffy/Angel) or they can be between two or more properties set in separate universes (Chuck and Die Hard - no I'm not kidding). The latter is done for reasons of fun and publicity and don't typically impact either's continuity going into or coming out of.
let me put it this way. if something is not canonical. then it's neither a sequel, spin off, or any other statue to the work in my book. same way GT is not a spin off of dragon ball (canon) to me. retcons don't change that
GT isn't a spin off, it's a sequel.

And none of this is actually an issue except for continuity obsessed fanatics.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Shintoki
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:32 am

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Shintoki » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:31 am

ABED wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:28 am
Crossovers can occur between two or more properties set in the same universe (MCU, Arrowverse, Buffy/Angel) or they can be between two or more properties set in separate universes (Chuck and Die Hard - no I'm not kidding). The latter is done for reasons of fun and publicity and don't typically impact either's continuity going into or coming out of.
let me put it this way. if something is not canonical. then it's neither a sequel, spin off, or any other statue to the work in my book. same way GT is not a spin off of dragon ball (canon) to me. retcons don't change that
GT isn't a spin off, it's a sequel.

And none of this is actually an issue except for continuity obsessed fanatics.
welp, I suppose that makes me one of them :eh:

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18768
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:35 am

I simply mean all this talk about canon and continuity doesn't matter much in the scheme of things. It's the stories that matter. I believe some place more importance on everything fitting together perfectly than whether the stories themselves are emotionally engaging.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I Live Here
Posts: 3298
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:38 am

Shintoki wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:27 am

whether you consider one piece a kids show or not is up to you. but I digress
It is objectively a kids show whose target audience is grade school boys. Same as Dragon Ball. It’s not up to anyone. It was made for young boys and published in a magazine targeted at grade school boys.

let me put it this way. if something is not canonical, then it's neither a sequel, spin off, or any other statue to the work in my book. same way GT is not a spin off of dragon ball (canon) to me. retcons don't change that
Again canon is not the rigid thing you want to pretend it is. GT is a sequel to Z. The events of Dragon Ball Ball and Dragon Ball Z occurred in GT. Dragon Ball Super disregards GT. GT and Super are alternative sequels to Z.
whether you disagree or agree with that is up to you. :roll:
Not everything is an opinion. Your statements that crossovers are automatically non-canon and that a sequel can never become non-canon by a later work are just factually wrong statements.
Last edited by MasenkoHA on Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I Live Here
Posts: 3298
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:39 am

ABED wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:35 am
I simply mean all this talk about canon and continuity doesn't matter much in the scheme of things. It's the stories that matter. I believe some place more importance on everything fitting together perfectly than whether the stories themselves are emotionally engaging.
I can agree with this. You either enjoy something or you don’t. “This isn’t canon so it doesn’t count and I can’t enjoy it” have always been bad faith criticism in my opinion.

User avatar
Grimlock
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6625
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Conton City

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:40 am

Shintoki wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:31 am
welp, I suppose that makes me one of them :eh:
Welcome to the club. But if you are, then you should know how things work and what words mean. Dragon Ball GT is not a spin-off because it clearly doesn't fit its definition (which was posted in this very thread). But it is a sequel to the Dragon Ball anime continuity taking place in another dimension.

User avatar
Shintoki
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:32 am

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by Shintoki » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:44 am

ABED wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:35 am
I simply mean all this talk about canon and continuity doesn't matter much in the scheme of things. It's the stories that matter. I believe some place more importance on everything fitting together perfectly than whether the stories themselves are emotionally engaging.
well, I don't disagree with that for all what worths

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18768
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: is dragon ball technically a spin off of dr slump?

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:45 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:39 am
ABED wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:35 am
I simply mean all this talk about canon and continuity doesn't matter much in the scheme of things. It's the stories that matter. I believe some place more importance on everything fitting together perfectly than whether the stories themselves are emotionally engaging.
I can agree with this. You either enjoy something or you don’t. “This isn’t canon so it doesn’t count and I can’t enjoy it” have always been bad faith criticism in my opinion.
I'm not throwing stones either. I can look myself in the mirror remember being concerned with canonicity or whether the timelines lined up, and all the stuff we're talking about, and just over time that way of consuming stories lost any sort of appeal. I wasn't getting anything out of it. So what if something is thrown out of continuity? Does the story still exist to be read or seen? If so, then enjoy it. A crossover fudges some continuity? Lamentable, perhaps, but was it enjoyable on its own terms is the real question.

Shintoki, care to tell me why you don't agree that canonicity doesn't really matter?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Post Reply