Most well developed characters in the franchise?

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:47 am

Character development just means change, it doesn't say which way or the other. Walter White develops into Heisenberg even if that means he get worse and worse.
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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:36 am

i think piccolo, gohan, and goku's characters in the saiyan arc are all really well handled, piccolo especially. his turn to a straight up good guy, along with his affection for gohan is great and is really natural, and of course the payoff is fantastic, it's one of the best scenes in the series. i also think kuririn's development during the 21st budokai is super underrated, it's not like super deep or anything, but it's very believable and it kinda shows off why kuririn is such a beloved character.
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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:39 am

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:36 am
i think piccolo, gohan, and goku's characters in the saiyan arc are all really well handled, piccolo especially. his turn to a straight up good guy, along with his affection for gohan is great and is really natural, and of course the payoff is fantastic, it's one of the best scenes in the series. i also think kuririn's development during the 21st budokai is super underrated, it's not like super deep or anything, but it's very believable and it kinda shows off why kuririn is such a beloved character.
Piccolo's arc is amazing if you experience the original version from beginning to end without knowing where it's going. Piccolo doesn't have a particularly warm relationship with Gohan but him giving his life to protect his friend is like all great twists, surprising but inevitable in hindsight.
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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:26 am

Vijay wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:25 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:22 am
Vegeta for the protagonists, Zamasu for the villains.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:15 pm
Zamasu sort of had a character development arc in his storyline.

Granted, it was developing into a complete psychopath.
That's still a development arc, a negative development to be exact. People like Vegeta and Piccolo are able to become better people, whereas Zamasu just cannot rise beyond his own twisted ideals and descends further and further into madness. Here's an interesting video from Totally Not Mark if you're interested on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ0meBqA1d4
I simply cannot find any redeeming quality for Zamasu that supports notion he had any sorta "development". If anything, dude was stuck up with his superiority complex & ningen emo😂😂😂
You don't have to look that hard, really. Episodes 53-59 show his fall from grace, while episodes 65-66-67 show his final descent into madness. Zamasu's character development is one of the central elements of the Future Trunks arc.
Dats called character regression. I actually liked him better when he was introduced as caretaker of Gowasu. His calm, cunning & scheming mindset with vile hatred for barbaric nature of low lives makes him an edgy character. The moment he entered the battle & by the time he fused...dude reminded me of GT Oozaru Baby....a ridiculous shell of his former self. All those complexity & edgyness became as stale as his "ningen"

I found him boring as Fused Zamasu tbh. Well, when even great Vegito felt bored to his talks..who are we mere mortals🤣🤣
That is not character regression. Character regression would be Zamasu randomly going back to his state of doubt towards the end of the Future Trunks arc with no explanation at all (basically going back to the state he was at the beginning of the story with no reason or build-up at all). What Zamasu went through is character development, but it's a different character development compared to the aforementioned Vegeta. While Vegeta managed to become a better person, Zamasu just couldn't see beyond the lie he believed in (which is that all mortals should be destroyed for the sake of peace and justice, that it is truly righteous to commit genocide).

The character development that Fused Zamasu got is central in understanding this character. As Zamasu's mental sanity begins to fracture (because he is shown repeatedly that he is not as invincible as he believed), his very body starts to deteroriate into a disfigured form. That's the delightful irony of Zamasu. He saw himself as such a pure and beautiful deity, and yet in the end he was no better than the ugly barbarian he had killed during his trip to Planet Babari.

You made a comparison between Fused Zamasu and Oozaru Baby Vegeta, which is more than appropriate. Both of them were extremists, and ironically both of them ended up becoming what they despised the most. Saiyans. That's character development.

What you hate is not his character development, it's his personality. You hate the fact that he is an arrogant snob who can't shut up about his superiority over miserable "ningens". But character development is something different, you can't say that Zamasu had none or even that he had a character regression, because that's simply not true.
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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:18 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:48 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:25 pm
What never happened?
Gokus evolution as a fighter, which is an important part of his character within the context of DB?
I disagree in that case.
they gave goku all the protagonism .... others are secondary included vegeta I don't see where the new is
Mister_Popo wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:23 pm
To give an answer: both Vegeta and Gohan had a lot of development during DBZ, but that was basically made undone during Super.
what a undone thing?

Well Vegeta did grow from Gokus enemy to his rival and eventually acknowledging he is the best at the end of the Buu arc.
In Super Vegeta became Gokus "rival" again, being very jealous when Goku was one step ahead, even to the point he didn't want to give energy to the U7 Spirit Bomb.

Gohan grew massively as a fighter during DBZ.
In the beginning of Super (first two arcs) he was no longer the warrior he had become during DBZ, (he didn't train anymore and basically only studied), only to rise again during TOP, when he reached 'Ultimate' again.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:30 pm

Vijay wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:25 am
I simply cannot find any redeeming quality for Zamasu that supports notion he had any sorta "development". If anything, dude was stuck up with his superiority complex & ningen emo😂😂😂
This :lol: Pick one

>NINGEN NINGEN NINGEN NINGEN *CRYING* NO ONE LIKES ME
>Character development

I mean he surely had some development in first stages of arc but that would only apply to present Zamasu who was killed pretty quickly.
I wouldn't say future Zamasu had any development by himself. The same goes to Goku Black.

Anyway, i'd also add Mr Satan to this list. He started as annoying guy who wanted to shine in front of everyone only to redeem himself in Buu saga by showing his good side and making friend with person he was meant to "destroy". His friendship with Buu led to him being actual savior of Earth and universe. Obviously not everything was done by him but he played major role in this. Then in GT we can see how after losing Buu he decides to retire because without him he sees no fun in tournaments anymore, only to decide to not retire after he felt confident when he won against Uub and saw that people still see him as a hero.
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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:09 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:18 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:48 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:25 pm
What never happened?
Gokus evolution as a fighter, which is an important part of his character within the context of DB?
I disagree in that case.

Mister_Popo wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:23 pm
To give an answer: both Vegeta and Gohan had a lot of development during DBZ, but that was basically made undone during Super.
what a undone thing?

Well Vegeta did grow from Gokus enemy to his rival and eventually acknowledging he is the best at the end of the Buu arc.
In Super Vegeta became Gokus "rival" again, being very jealous when Goku was one step ahead, even to the point he didn't want to give energy to the U7 Spirit Bomb.

not really.
First of all, Gohan was given easy a lot of his power with little or no training in Buu Arc, so it was fair enough that he lost it so that he could recover it with a better motivation than just getting more power.
second, he preferred to have a normal life after he got married and had a daughter ... which was a new experience for him he realized later the earth was in danger again that he should not retire ... continue train and be a warrior to protect those he loves.
I think it's a better version him.

that vegeta recognized that goku was stronger does not mean that he should be left behind of him ... in fact the appearance of beerus which defeated goku very easily ... made him understand that he was not invincible and that they should not always depend of him .... so he should not abandon the idea of overcoming it ... since that motivates him to be a better warrior
His rivalry evolved is now healthier and sportier.
Vegeta no longer ditches his family just to go fight ... as seen in the birth of Bra / Bura
that vegeta does not help goku with the Spirit Bomb does not seem bad to me .. it is still rivals so it may not agree with some of its methods ... it was a loss of energy to the team
Gohan grew massively as a fighter during DBZ.
In the beginning of Super (first two arcs) he was no longer the warrior he had become during DBZ, (he didn't train anymore and basically only studied), only to rise again during TOP, when he reached 'Ultimate' again.
Last edited by Tai Lung on Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:44 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:09 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:18 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:48 pm




what a undone thing?

Well Vegeta did grow from Gokus enemy to his rival and eventually acknowledging he is the best at the end of the Buu arc.
In Super Vegeta became Gokus "rival" again, being very jealous when Goku was one step ahead, even to the point he didn't want to give energy to the U7 Spirit Bomb.

Gohan grew massively as a fighter during DBZ.
In the beginning of Super (first two arcs) he was no longer the warrior he had become during DBZ, (he didn't train anymore and basically only studied), only to rise again during TOP, when he reached 'Ultimate' again.
not really.
First of all, Gohan was given easy a lot of his power with little or no training in Buu Arc, so it was fair enough that he lost it so that he could recover it with a better motivation than just getting more power.
second, he preferred to have a normal life after he got married and had a daughter ... which was a new experience for him he realized later the earth was in danger again that he should not retire ... continue train and be a warrior to protect those he loves.
I think it's a better version him.

I think the story could have been a lot more about Gohan if you see how the story was progressing during DBZ, in stead of refocussing on Goku. It was Toriyamas intention to write Goku out of the story in order to give Gohan more time to shine. He was the new "chosen one", the one who should have continued Gokus legacy after the Cell Games. Goku simply resumed his roll as main protagonist at the end of the Buu arc, on fan demand. The intention of Gohans 'main protagonism' did appear somehow short-lived at the end, definitely if you look at the first part of Super.

Why should "being a father" be an argument to stop training? Goku and Vegeta kept smashing records after they became fathers. The problem is that DB is a lot about fighting, so if you become less relevant as a fighter, you can become less relevant as a character as well, maybe not with Bulma, but with an important martial artist like Gohan i really felt he was somehow replaced in order to give the fans more Goku and Vegeta-time.

These were only examples. What was my main point here?
I don't say there is no character development at all in Dragon Ball or there are no subtle differences in relationships between characters, i'm afraid it all depends too much on fan service for the characters to change too drastically. I still think they are are portrayed very recognizable during Super, the slice of life-episodes for instance are very amusing and interactions like Goku-Vegeta and Beerus-Whis always are. But over-recognizability can also become a "disadvantage" on the long term for the story to develop optimally. I'd wish they were a little more daring.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:42 pm

Mr.Satan. It is one of the reasons why the Majin Boo arc is my favorite in the whole series. It is remarkable how well done it is and I don't find that much in Dragon Ball. Boo being humanized by a selfish coward, but an ultimately good person at heart is just amazing. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff and he even ends up saving the world without being anywhere near as strong as the main cast. It rules honestly.

Piccolo has a decent arc as well. I like Goku's arc too, at least in the manga for the most part, but its still very inconsistent especially with the whole "if he is a hero or a selfish asshole" theme. I don't think Toriyama himself had any concrete stance on that and it shows in the story. And, if you include modern DB its a complete mess. His GT version is good though.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:13 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:34 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:48 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:25 pm
I just meant i had the feeling GT did dare to experiment more in general with new concepts, where as Super is more in compliant with DB/DBZ IMHO and more relies to fanservice.
I really don't see how ...
Recycling the dragon ball adventure plot at this point didn't have much future ...
creating a super android 17 and reviving the dead again doesn't seem like a good concept
I see how: an adventure, as boring as that might be, will still engage somehow. You are witnessing characters in slight different situations and sometimes there's even a mystery to be solved wherever they are. This is far more interesting than seeing endless fights with no actual consequence in a situation that repeated itself almost instantly.

Major characters may die permanently, whereas they are totally safe with Toriyama around.

There is a sense of progression.
That depends ... in DB OG it worked fine because we don't know the fictional world of the series yet, so it was great to explore it knowing enemies and allies.

But in Gt, At this point in history ... many of the things feel out of place and forced to happen
an unnecessary reference to oolong, trunks with women's dress
a world of giant animals that should not have a problem with such strong people but still there is and no much justification
enemies too strong out of nowhere something i hate in gt and i still hate in moro arc
The universe had already been explored before with the filler chapters in z ... false namek, goku repairing his ship and bulma meet giinyu if these were useless but they felt more natural at that time.
Grimlock wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:34 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:48 pm
neither use the old plot of a video game about tsufurujins
What "plot of a video game" are you referring to?
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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:45 pm

Xeogran wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:00 am

Freeza is pretty different now than how he was back on Namek and before. Especially during the ToP. For a DB villian that's a big change, he even agreed to GIVE GOKU HIS ENERGY FOR GENKI DAMA.
Frieza also seemed a lot more mature in DBS Broly. Back in the Namek arc, he wanted to live forever. Now he doesn't even care about that. He seems less bothered about the notion of dying some day, which is a typical mindset someone trends towards as they get older. He's overall a more composed individual who is less incline to throw a tantrum. Despite all that, he's still every bit as evil and callous as he's always been.

Frieza has been handled nicely in Super. They managed to give him some development, while also maintaining who he is at the very core. That can be tricky to do, and it's kind of a stark contrast to how they've handled Goku, who many feel like he's been acting out of character a lot on Super.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by ABED » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:48 pm

Freeza had such great development. They turned him from one of the best pop culture villains ever and turned him into a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain.
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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:54 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:48 pm
Freeza had such great development. They turned him from one of the best pop culture villains ever and turned him into a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain.
So he's Japanese Joker.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:02 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:54 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:48 pm
Freeza had such great development. They turned him from one of the best pop culture villains ever and turned him into a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain.
So he's Japanese Joker.
No and that’s a bizarre reach.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:07 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:02 pm
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:54 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:48 pm
Freeza had such great development. They turned him from one of the best pop culture villains ever and turned him into a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain.
So he's Japanese Joker.
No and that’s a bizarre reach.
I'm kidding, sort of. I mean Joker is cultural icon, who has also functioned as a Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain. Same with Thanos.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by ABED » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:18 pm

Bottom line, it wasn't a good development for him.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by funrush » Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:40 am

I don't see Freeza as much different than he was during the Namek arc, maybe a little less serious. He was willing to work with U7 sure, but he worked with the Saiyans for decades. And he still wants to come back and kill Goku. He just helped during the ToP because Hell sucks and he wanted to get revived.

But yes his role in the series has changed now that he's a recurring character. He was basically just comedy relief/plot device in the Broly movie.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Skar » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:26 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:54 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:48 pm
Freeza had such great development. They turned him from one of the best pop culture villains ever and turned him into a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain.
So he's Japanese Joker.
Joker usually lives because Batman has a code against murder which the Z fighters have no problem with. In DB, the reason why there aren't any reoccurring villains is because they get a chance to reform or killed. The only reoccurring one was Pilaf because he was a non-threatening gag villain. Goku was going to kill Mecha Freeza and he killed Freeza in RoF but Gogeta spared him in DBS: Broly. The only reason Freeza is still alive is apparently because Goku doesn't consider him enough of a threat to kill anymore.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:19 pm

Skar wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:26 am
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:54 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:48 pm
Freeza had such great development. They turned him from one of the best pop culture villains ever and turned him into a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain.
So he's Japanese Joker.
Joker usually lives because Batman has a code against murder which the Z fighters have no problem with. In DB, the reason why there aren't any reoccurring villains is because they get a chance to reform or killed. The only reoccurring one was Pilaf because he was a non-threatening gag villain. Goku was going to kill Mecha Freeza and he killed Freeza in RoF but Gogeta spared him in DBS: Broly. The only reason Freeza is still alive is apparently because Goku doesn't consider him enough of a threat to kill anymore.
Goku may not have a set in stone code, but he's always been reluctant to kill, at least in his adult life. He tried to spare Frieza on Namek, so it's not really out of character for Goku to repeatedly spare him.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Skar » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:09 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:19 pm
Goku may not have a set in stone code, but he's always been reluctant to kill, at least in his adult life. He tried to spare Frieza on Namek, so it's not really out of character for Goku to repeatedly spare him.
I'm not sure what's the point of sparing Freeza after his third attempt at revenge. If he ever does become a threat again, then it's the same thing we've seen before and he gets killed again. I'm just curious if they intend for Freeza to reform at some point or he'll stick around because he's popular and killed off before DBS ends.

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