Most well developed characters in the franchise?

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:26 pm

Skar wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:09 pm
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:19 pm
Goku may not have a set in stone code, but he's always been reluctant to kill, at least in his adult life. He tried to spare Frieza on Namek, so it's not really out of character for Goku to repeatedly spare him.
I'm not sure what's the point of sparing Freeza after his third attempt at revenge. If he ever does become a threat again, then it's the same thing we've seen before and he gets killed again. I'm just curious if they intend for Freeza to reform at some point or he'll stick around because he's popular and killed off before DBS ends.
Goku keeps sparing him because he wants to keep fighting him, obviously.
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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Skar » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:54 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:26 pm
Goku keeps sparing him because he wants to keep fighting him, obviously.
It must not have been that obvious because I don't remember Goku ever saying that :P . On Namek, Goku was willing to spare Freeza as long as he didn't show his face again. When he met Trunks, Goku told Trunks that he should've finished off Freeza on Namek and didn't imply he was excited to fight Freeza again. In RoF, it was sort of a repeat of what happened on Namek with Goku letting Freeza go and then deciding to kill him after a sneak attack.

DB was always a series of progress and characters growing as they learn from their mistakes. I don't know how it benefits the story when Freeza keeps coming back and eventually suffering the same fate as before. It's repeating the same lesson each time and eventually killing Freeza when they figure out he'll never change.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:16 pm

Vijay wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:25 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:22 am
Vegeta for the protagonists, Zamasu for the villains.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:15 pm
Zamasu sort of had a character development arc in his storyline.

Granted, it was developing into a complete psychopath.
That's still a development arc, a negative development to be exact. People like Vegeta and Piccolo are able to become better people, whereas Zamasu just cannot rise beyond his own twisted ideals and descends further and further into madness. Here's an interesting video from Totally Not Mark if you're interested on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ0meBqA1d4
I simply cannot find any redeeming quality for Zamasu that supports notion he had any sorta "development". If anything, dude was stuck up with his superiority complex & ningen emo😂😂😂
Developing into a more evil character is still character development.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:21 pm

Skar wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:09 pm
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:19 pm
Goku may not have a set in stone code, but he's always been reluctant to kill, at least in his adult life. He tried to spare Frieza on Namek, so it's not really out of character for Goku to repeatedly spare him.
I'm not sure what's the point of sparing Freeza after his third attempt at revenge.
Same reason Batman repeatedly spares Joker. Goku may not have flat out announced he has a conscious code against killing, but he clearly has a principle of sorts by temperament.

Don't get me wrong, I do find it to be stupid, and I feel the same way for Batman. In some ways, I find it more stupid for Batman, because he's far less naive than Goku.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by funrush » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:47 pm

Goku spares Freeza because he doesn't really view him as a threat anymore. He basically flat out says this to Vegeta at the beginning of the Broly movie, something like "If he comes back here we'll just beat him again"

Maybe he enjoys fighting Freeza too. That could be a secondary reason.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Skar » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:17 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:21 pm
Same reason Batman repeatedly spares Joker. Goku may not have flat out announced he has a conscious code against killing, but he clearly has a principle of sorts by temperament.
We've already discussed the differences between them. Most versions of Batman have a strict moral code against killing which is why he has a rogue gallery of reoccurring villains. In Dragonball, there is no rogue gallery because all major villains who don't reform are killed off. I get Freeza was brought back due to his popularity but do you believe we should expect anything new from him after DBS: Broly? Freeza didn't survive his last the last two times he came to Earth for revenge but he was spared after his third attempt. Goku might learn the same lesson again after Freeza's revenge attempt #4 or wait until attempt #5 to decide to kill Freeza but I don't think it's going to be something we've seen already.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:35 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:21 pm
Skar wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:09 pm
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:19 pm
Goku may not have a set in stone code, but he's always been reluctant to kill, at least in his adult life. He tried to spare Frieza on Namek, so it's not really out of character for Goku to repeatedly spare him.
I'm not sure what's the point of sparing Freeza after his third attempt at revenge.
Same reason Batman repeatedly spares Joker. Goku may not have flat out announced he has a conscious code against killing, but he clearly has a principle of sorts by temperament.

Don't get me wrong, I do find it to be stupid, and I feel the same way for Batman. In some ways, I find it more stupid for Batman, because he's far less naive than Goku.
This is why I never minded Batman having no qualms with killing bad guys in the Burton films

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:54 pm

Skar wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:17 pm

but do you believe we should expect anything new from him after DBS: Broly?
No more or less than any other recurring character.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Vijay » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:36 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:16 pm
Vijay wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:25 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:22 am
Vegeta for the protagonists, Zamasu for the villains.



That's still a development arc, a negative development to be exact. People like Vegeta and Piccolo are able to become better people, whereas Zamasu just cannot rise beyond his own twisted ideals and descends further and further into madness. Here's an interesting video from Totally Not Mark if you're interested on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ0meBqA1d4
I simply cannot find any redeeming quality for Zamasu that supports notion he had any sorta "development". If anything, dude was stuck up with his superiority complex & ningen emo😂😂😂
Developing into a more evil character is still character development.
Evil wouldn't be the word I would use to describe him. Boring? Yes. If developing into a more boring character is considered development, then peace upon ya

I couldn't tell a single thing dude accomplished makin him evil. His design was meh. Voice was ok. His plan was long-winded & constant ningen moaning was ridiculous beyond a point.

Always felt compared to rest of atrocious Super villains, Zamasu might be above the rest. But by comparison to DB, Z or even GT...dude isn't touching even Cell/Frieza/Piccolo Daimou

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:27 am

Vijay wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:36 am
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:16 pm
Vijay wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:25 am


I simply cannot find any redeeming quality for Zamasu that supports notion he had any sorta "development". If anything, dude was stuck up with his superiority complex & ningen emo😂😂😂
Developing into a more evil character is still character development.
Evil wouldn't be the word I would use to describe him. Boring? Yes. If developing into a more boring character is considered development, then peace upon ya
Just because you think he became more boring doesn't mean he didn't have character development. I dislike Goku's personality but I'm not going to pretend he's never had any character development in the first two series (not so much in Super).
I couldn't tell a single thing dude accomplished makin him evil.
I'm quite puzzled by this. I'll try to refresh your memory:

- He backstabbed his loving master;
- He stole the main character's body and used it to mercilessly kill him and his family, then gloated about it;
- He destroyed the Super Dragon Balls, which are basically the most sacred artifacts in the cosmos;

And last but not least:

- He literally committed multiversal genocide.
His plan was long-winded & constant ningen moaning was ridiculous beyond a point.
I like that his plan was complex. It just wouldn't make sense if Zamasu could carry out his Project Zero Mortals without having to fear about potential obstacles to his plan, so I found it more than reasonable that his plan involved time travellling shenanigans and wishes with the Super Dragon Balls.
Always felt compared to rest of atrocious Super villains, Zamasu might be above the rest. But by comparison to DB, Z or even GT...dude isn't touching even Cell/Frieza/Piccolo Daimou
From what perspective? Feat-wise, he shits all over these guys. He pretty much succeeded in what these people could not. He became immortal, he killed Goku, and he became unstoppable, to the point that it took the God of the multiverse to end him.
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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:33 am

Vijay wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:36 am

If developing into a more boring character is considered development, then peace upon ya
It could be, actually, if it's intentional. But that's another topic. Not sure why you find him boring, but to each his own.

I couldn't tell a single thing dude accomplished makin him evil. His design was meh. Voice was ok. His plan was long-winded & constant ningen moaning was ridiculous beyond a point.
As mentioned above, he killed his master, stole Goku's body, and killed countless people. As for design, I mean he has the standard Supreme Kai design. I guess it's not nearly as unique as designs like Frieza or Cell, but I don't think it needs to be. I thought the twist of having an evil Kai was enough of a uniqueness.

His constant ningen moaning is reflective of his grandiosity, bigotry, and narcissism. Typical villain tropes, but I think it's the type of tropes that have stood the test of time, which is why they're used so much.

In a way, you're suppose to get annoyed by his constant ningen moaning. I've known actual pathological narcissists, and they really do monologue and regurgitate their thoughts endlessly, to the point where you feel like your head will explode. It is indeed, annoying, but its truly what people like this do. So it's realistic for a fictional narcissist to be this way.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:38 am

Yeah, I don't really understand the "design" complaint. Like, he is not some unique demon sealed away long ago or weird android creation. He's *just* a Kai, so of course he looks like a normal Kai.

I actually think this makes Zamasu more unique compared to Z villains. Z villains are all supposed to be these weird, scary, alien monsters. Then we have Zamasu, who does not even look like a villain at first. I think it's a nice contrast between his calm and fair appearance and his dark heart. Plus I think Fused Zamasu has a very unique design, the Saiyan hair on a Kai looks particularly amazing.

Also, am I the only one who finds his constant ningen moaning hilarious? What makes it so funny is that he himself realizes that nobody cares about his long speeches, but he just does them anyway because he is so intoxicated with himself. That was such a clever comeback.
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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:55 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:33 am
As for design, I mean he has the standard Supreme Kai design. I guess it's not nearly as unique as designs like Frieza or Cell, but I don't think it needs to be. I thought the twist of having an evil Kai was enough of a uniqueness.
HIm being a kai itself wouldn't be bad if it wasn't for Goku Black. This character ruined entire arc which would be better if it was only about Zamasu himself. But what we got was lame narcissistic team of evil kai and evil Goku, character whose design was predicted by a fanart in 2009:

Image
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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:48 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:55 am
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:33 am
As for design, I mean he has the standard Supreme Kai design. I guess it's not nearly as unique as designs like Frieza or Cell, but I don't think it needs to be. I thought the twist of having an evil Kai was enough of a uniqueness.
HIm being a kai itself wouldn't be bad if it wasn't for Goku Black. This character ruined entire arc which would be better if it was only about Zamasu himself. But what we got was lame narcissistic team of evil kai and evil Goku, character whose design was predicted by a fanart in 2009:
I like Goku Black's design, but I think it would have been cooler if Black would have been his own character, and not Zamasu in Goku's body.

Prior to us finding out he's Zamasu, I had this theory that Black was a creation of Zamasu, and he used Goku's body to create him. Kais are suppose to be Gods of Creation, but we never really see this aspect of them. I thought this would have been the first time this would have been explored.

I think a nice added twist would have been, it was really Zamasu who created the heart virus (viruses are life afterall). When he gets obsessed with Goku, he steals the Time Ring, goes back in time, gives Goku the virus, and waits for the virus to kill him. The virus is not just made to kill him, but to also turn its host bodies into one of Zamasu's cronies (i.e. turn him into Goku Black). Zamasu also then finds out that Goku was cured in one of the time lines, by none other than mortals, which adds to his hatred towards them.

Granted, this all would have probably complicated the time travel shenanigans even more, but I thought it would have been cool if the heart virus was somehow written into the plot.

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Re: Most well developed characters in the franchise?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:43 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:48 pm
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:55 am
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:33 am
As for design, I mean he has the standard Supreme Kai design. I guess it's not nearly as unique as designs like Frieza or Cell, but I don't think it needs to be. I thought the twist of having an evil Kai was enough of a uniqueness.
HIm being a kai itself wouldn't be bad if it wasn't for Goku Black. This character ruined entire arc which would be better if it was only about Zamasu himself. But what we got was lame narcissistic team of evil kai and evil Goku, character whose design was predicted by a fanart in 2009:
I like Goku Black's design, but I think it would have been cooler if Black would have been his own character, and not Zamasu in Goku's body.

Prior to us finding out he's Zamasu, I had this theory that Black was a creation of Zamasu, and he used Goku's body to create him. Kais are suppose to be Gods of Creation, but we never really see this aspect of them. I thought this would have been the first time this would have been explored.

I think a nice added twist would have been, it was really Zamasu who created the heart virus (viruses are life afterall). When he gets obsessed with Goku, he steals the Time Ring, goes back in time, gives Goku the virus, and waits for the virus to kill him. The virus is not just made to kill him, but to also turn its host bodies into one of Zamasu's cronies (i.e. turn him into Goku Black). Zamasu also then finds out that Goku was cured in one of the time lines, by none other than mortals, which adds to his hatred towards them.

Granted, this all would have probably complicated the time travel shenanigans even more, but I thought it would have been cool if the heart virus was somehow written into the plot.
We already saw Fused Zamasu create a sentient winged-like creature in episode 65, so the aspect of creation is covered. Technically Black also created an army of clones but I wouldn't count those as sentient life.

I think that Black being Zamasu does not hinder the character in any way, because he evolved differently from Future Zamasu. In the anime we can see this during their conversation at the cabin, where Black mocks Zamasu's reliance on immortality and is proud of his Saiyan strength. In the manga this division is even deeper. Black sees Future Zamasu as nothing more than a pawn, so much so that Zamasu rebels against his former comrade and their conflict is cut short only because they had to fuse to survive annihilation.

Finally, regarding the heart virus, technically it was written into the plot. It's the crux of Zamasu's argument regarding the mess caused by time travel. If Trunks had never saved Goku from the heart virus, Goku would have died and Zamasu would have never been humiliated by him. This means that Zamasu wouldn't have needed to switch bodies with Goku, nor would he have gone to another timeline entirely to form an alliance with another Zamasu. Goku surviving the heart virus defied what history dictated and was a long-term cause of Project Zero Mortals.
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