If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

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If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Jord » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:38 pm

As we' ve seen with Super, year long story telling puts a big damper on pacing and quality. (Didn't the ToP last more than a YEAR?)
So what in my opinion would be a better solution is this:

Let's say there are 50 episodes in a year.. Toei should divide the number of episodes into 2 categories:

1. The main story. A continuation of the story line, whether it's at the end of Z, GT, or anywhere where they want to pick things up.
Due to the lower number of episodes we could have more consistent animation, better writer and pacing.

2. Side stories. These can be slice-of-life stories or just short arcs focused on specific characters. The great thing about this one is that characters that aren't featured much in the main story can get more fleshed out here. Heck, you don't even need to stay in the current timeline but could write stories that take place anywhere in DragonBall, Z or GT. Due to the shorter arcs. they could easily fit in the regular story line. If you want to go really crazy, you can also use these side stories to experiment with different story telling and animation styles, giving each a unique hook. The possibilities are endless. You could see Vegeta's training in space after the Frieza Saga, you could see Goku training with Uub after Z and enjoying the simpler life in Uub's village or see Kuririn's life during Goku's adventures in Muscle Tower.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:55 pm

Or let a series that ended its manga in 1995 and its anime in 1997 die...

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Alruneia » Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:11 pm

I believe I've suggested something like this myself in a previous post somewhere. (And when searching for the post... it turns out you made the thread I posted it in. Go figure.) To reiterate what I posted back then, what I suggested was that half the time, there'd be Dragon Ball Super (or whatever the next DB anime name would be), and the other half would be things like the SDBH anime, sidestories, backstories, alternate universe stories and other things like that. You could split it up by cour, so you'd have 13 episodes of one thing and then 13 episodes of the other, or you could alternate every other week. I think the cour alternative is better, though, since going back and forth every week could be a bit whiplash-inducing.

The obvious advantage of doing it like this is that the main story will get extra development time. It becomes easier for the anime to follow the manga, for example, if that's what they want to do, since the manga will have more time to progress as well, and episodes will be developed over a longer period of time. That last bit assumes that the episodes that aren't the main story have lower priority, though. Additionally, it would allow for a lot of variety. Canonicity wouldn't be any issue in the episodes that aren't the main story, so story writers would be able to go wild and write tons of interesting things (like professionally-made Broly MADs).

Of course, there's also the disadvantage of the main story progressing at half speed. Not everyone is going to be interested in the "alternate story" episodes, so for them it'd feel like they're just getting less content. So it's not all sunshine and roses. I still think it's a good idea, though, since it doesn't really seem like there are any plans to let the franchise rest.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:38 pm

Toei should do ~25 episodes a year, with maybe the first 5 or 6, and/or maybe the last 5 or 6 being lighthearted "filler"/breather episodes. But don't just make the breather episodes pure fluff. You've got an ambitious story to tell, why not set it up a bit; lay some foundations among the characters for what we're gonna see, hint at some of the themes we'll be exploring, etc.

But "Ambitious storyline" is very important. No "Evil Goku fights Trunks so they go fight in the FUTURE and VEGETTO is back but Trunks does a SPIRIT BOMB but with his SWORD!!" or any other such paper-thin shit. Tell new stories that actually move the status quo forward. Never before Super had Dragon Ball ever run on the spot. Things were always changing. But come Super, a reset button is hit at the end of every arc...

If the anime staff are given material that's really bad (such as the upcoming Moro arc), give them time (and have a really competent writer's room) to make it work in a really cool way like Super Broly (big a fan as I am of that movie, I imagine Toriyama's original script for it probably sucked, and many of the other early drafts probably also sucked).
Even though the plotting for Broly was fairly basic, the moment-to-moment writing was far better than anything we've seen in Super, the characters all felt very real and like they all have agency in the story, it was all very well paced (the story wasn't padding itself out unnecessarily or skipping over anything worthwhile)...
And I imagine more than one stupid idea in the first draft was either cut or recontextualised into something that isn't really stupid.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:47 pm

I have always remained relatively positive about Super. Because if you want to bring nostalgia, which they did, you have to play your cards right. Generally speaking i am not a negative thinker and try to see things in a positive perspective. I still felt emotionally involved with the characters i grew up with. That's an art on its own, which i didn't perceive when watching the SW-sequels for instance. But I do acknowlegde DB dares to experiment a tad too little with new ways of storytelling and concepts, which is needed to keep the franchise moving forward. I understand that's a pain in the ass for some people.

It is not necessarily the case, because a series has been going on for a long time, that you can no longer write new, interesting stories. It just gets harder to be innovative. I think Super did just that well. It tried not to be an exact copy of DBZ by just using a different tone of voice. I think there were a number of crucial problems. First and foremost the execution. And then secondly, Super tried to go too much further on fan service, recognizability and not innovative thinking.

I think creation always starts with innovation, with out-of-the-box thinking. If a story starts with a known concept such as Broly, a retelling or again a tournament, how can you be optimally creative? I think that Super should dare to go wild and radically try out new concepts. Dragon Ball, however, has become a mega franchise, everything 'must' yield, that they almost dare to take any more risks. "Recognizability" is important in marketing. This while a good story always starts with a calculated risk. Only by taking risks can you surprise the viewer / reader. I think that is why a number of fans have just been bored with Dragon Ball, because it surprises too little and too much build on recognizability.

Personally, I am not a fan of the change formula: main story and side stories. You can come up with side stories within a broader story, but it must remain 1 coherent whole. If you really want to focus on 1 character, let that partial story play a role within a larger story. For example, you can focus on a person's training or background, but afterwards also tell how that fits within the broader picture.
If you would like to make real side stories, then I would go for the 'Star Wars principle' exactly: make a mini series about a character, for example, but keep the main story pure. Too many jumps from story to story make it confusing for the viewer / reader. I think Dragon Ball can get a lot of power from visual storytelling. The main story can safely go slow, also in the anime. Not much needs to be said, the story does not have to be unnecessarily complex with too many dips, but it must be given time to intrigue and penetrate.
Of course, 'something' has to be done, a tournament of more than 30 episodes, you didn't tell much with that either. It should not feel like a filler, something must actually happen that fascinates and intrigues the viewer he hasn't see before.

I don't think they can forget their audience thanks to what they have grown up to be. Dragon Ball is an anime / manga from 30 years ago, perhaps it should dare to think more about how it can go along with its time. The original fans of the first hour are not getting any younger and perhaps expect something different than when they were 15 years old. I don't think DB should become a Seinen, overley complex or unrecognizable, but within the category Shounen it could be more innovating than what it brings along now, is my honest opinion.

Only if everything remains dynamic and as little as possible predictable, then I think and believe that DB can remain fascinating.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by coola » Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:13 pm

- Yamamuro shouldn't come back as chara designer
- No more flanderization of characters (No stupid Goku, soccer mom Chi-Chi)
- No new script writers who have no idea about Dragon Ball lore (Piccolo not hearing enemy sneaking up to him)
- No bending/chaning rules for plot sake or inconsistent power levels
- No more Tenshinhan, they clearly have no idea what to do with him

Sadly, its DB, so its gonna sell, even if writing or animation is terrible :(
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:21 pm

coola wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:13 pm
- No bending/chaning rules for plot sake or inconsistent power levels
Not sure what you mean by this.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Vijay » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:31 pm

Unless 2 things occur

1. TOEI staffs are undercover user members of this Kanzenshuu forum & did come across this topics & eventually learn to correct their mistakes

2. Ur some high-profile big shot who's willing to spend millions of dollars into financing DB franchise....I mean you really take over it's production costs, creative control, output quality etc

Topics like this have been done to death & quite frankly, they're mere hopes. And we're talking abt a series made by fanboy who became famous by basing off an unofficial DB manga...

Just look at MadHouse or BONES output. And you'll be ashamed of discussing of Super. Simple as that.

In fact, you don't even need high-caliber writing, plot or music or even bombastic action scenes. When a filler episode from DB & DBZ made in 1986/1992 could overshadow your 2018-2019 "main event storyline/fights"๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:33 pm

Vijay wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:31 pm
In fact, you don't even need high-caliber writing, plot or music or even bombastic action scenes. When a filler episode from DB & DBZ made in 1986/1992 could overshadow your 2018-2019 "main event storyline/fights"๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚
clearly that has never happened

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:38 pm

Vijay wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:31 pm
Unless 2 things occur

1. TOEI staffs are undercover user members of this Kanzenshuu forum & did come across this topics & eventually learn to correct their mistakes

2. Ur some high-profile big shot who's willing to spend millions of dollars into financing DB franchise....I mean you really take over it's production costs, creative control, output quality etc

Topics like this have been done to death & quite frankly, they're mere hopes. And we're talking abt a series made by fanboy who became famous by basing off an unofficial DB manga...

Just look at MadHouse or BONES output. And you'll be ashamed of discussing of Super. Simple as that.

In fact, you don't even need high-caliber writing, plot or music or even bombastic action scenes. When a filler episode from DB & DBZ made in 1986/1992 could overshadow your 2018-2019 "main event storyline/fights"๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚

It's somehow a disappointment that we have evolved from a product that is not entirely sufficient to a franchise that makes a massive amount of money, exploiting the success of DB / DBZ without a main product or doing much for it.

The topic name 'if' is therefore very applicable to reality.
I wanted to give the franchise the benefit of the doubt in the sense ... I saw that it was not entirely sufficient, but I noticed and felt that some effort was still being made to improve one and the other. In the second half of Super, although the writing was not yet completely ok, we had at least a number of beautifully animated episodes, sometimes even with a sophisticated structure. There was improvement and Broly did confirm that in my eyes.

I really thought that they had taken the anime out of circulation to remedy a number of issues and actually give the fans what they had hoped for. Maybe I was a little too naive about that. It looks more and more that this is not the case. A number of people are currently earning a huge amount of money, especially in the face of the success of the original series. But for the rest there is not much moving.
Last edited by Mister_Popo on Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:48 pm

But if it's making a ton of money, clearly plenty are still enjoying it.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by funrush » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:53 pm

Dragon Ball should air the same way My Hero does it, as in 13-26-39 etc. episode seasons.

Having it run continuously leads to trash filler, general padding, and crappy animation. I'd rather see quality over quantity.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:09 pm

funrush wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:53 pm
Dragon Ball should air the same way My Hero does it, as in 13-26-39 etc. episode seasons.

Having it run continuously leads to trash filler, general padding, and crappy animation. I'd rather see quality over quantity.

I agree if less episodes leads to more quality, still i prefer DB as a series, not a movie only formula.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by coola » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:30 pm

ABED wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:21 pm
coola wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:13 pm
- No bending/chaning rules for plot sake or inconsistent power levels
Not sure what you mean by this.
Maybe not changing rules, but retcons to some parts (Beerus ordering to destroy Planet Vegeta, Potara one hour fusion limit etc.) And power levels were very inconsistent.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Vijay » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:46 pm

Tai Lung wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:33 pm
Vijay wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:31 pm
In fact, you don't even need high-caliber writing, plot or music or even bombastic action scenes. When a filler episode from DB & DBZ made in 1986/1992 could overshadow your 2018-2019 "main event storyline/fights"๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚
clearly that has never happened
Each person have their own perspectives. And in my view, yes. It has happened. Cute charming fillers of 21st TB Arc, funny Driving Episode or calm pre-Cell Games slice-of- life episode. You name it.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:59 pm

in filler episodes ... when we watch hit kill a mob boss and a dark city is shown I think they genuinely wanted to explore the multiverse but since they couldn't change than the original script they couldn't do it

I think it would have benefited that Toriyama had only given a guide on some occasions so that there were no sudden changes at the moment to another
Vijay wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:46 pm
Tai Lung wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:33 pm
Vijay wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:31 pm
In fact, you don't even need high-caliber writing, plot or music or even bombastic action scenes. When a filler episode from DB & DBZ made in 1986/1992 could overshadow your 2018-2019 "main event storyline/fights"๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚
clearly that has never happened
Each person have their own perspectives. And in my view, yes. It has happened. Cute charming fillers of 21st TB Arc, funny Driving Episode or calm pre-Cell Games slice-of- life episode. You name it.
that a thing be "old" does not make it good automatically
Driving episode is no different than baseball episode
I can agree that some fillers in DB OG were more creative but those of z in particular do not have much difference with the current ones but in the end comedy is subjective

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:31 pm

I have no idea why the driver eds episode is so popular when it makes no goddamn sense as a premise.

Chi Chi doesnโ€™t want to use kinto un to get groceries so she makes Goku, who can fly faster than any air car, get his license because...?

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:47 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:31 pm
I have no idea why the driver eds episode is so popular when it makes no goddamn sense as a premise.

Chi Chi doesnโ€™t want to use kinto un to get groceries so she makes Goku, who can fly faster than any air car, get his license because...?
If thereโ€™s one thing Super has demonstrated, itโ€™s that slice of life episodes are fairly popular in Dragon Ball.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:08 pm

Gokuu randomly liking cars because Toriyama likes cars and Gokuu is most like Toriyama would be a far more pleasant idea.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Dbzfan94 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:57 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: โ†‘
Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:55 pm
Or let a series that ended its manga in 1995 and its anime in 1997 die...
Took the words out of my mouth.

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