If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:06 pm

My favorite part of the Driving episode is when goku and piccolo couldn't lift a bus .... aww those times when nobody cared about that

but in the end they still have the belief that everything old is good ... :roll:

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by ABED » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:51 am

coola wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:30 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:21 pm
coola wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:13 pm
- No bending/chaning rules for plot sake or inconsistent power levels
Not sure what you mean by this.
Maybe not changing rules, but retcons to some parts (Beerus ordering to destroy Planet Vegeta, Potara one hour fusion limit etc.) And power levels were very inconsistent.
Agreed to an extent, though the power level thing is not that big a deal except in the most egregious of examples. My go to is RoF when one of Freeza's new henchmen is said to be as strong as Zarbon and Dodoria, and somehow he's able to go toe to toe with Piccolo! When it's a disparity that huge, it breaks suspension of disbelief. The battle powers going off the charts during the fight against Freeza however does not.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Rory » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:34 am

ABED wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:51 am
coola wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:30 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:21 pm
Not sure what you mean by this.
Maybe not changing rules, but retcons to some parts (Beerus ordering to destroy Planet Vegeta, Potara one hour fusion limit etc.) And power levels were very inconsistent.
Agreed to an extent, though the power level thing is not that big a deal except in the most egregious of examples. My go to is RoF when one of Freeza's new henchmen is said to be as strong as Zarbon and Dodoria, and somehow he's able to go toe to toe with Piccolo! When it's a disparity that huge, it breaks suspension of disbelief. The battle powers going off the charts during the fight against Freeza however does not.
I think why that kinda stuff hits home is because it sorta makes characters look pathetic, which compounds the whole 'if you're not a Saiyan' issue. Like they make Piccolo look lame in order to make this new guy look like a threat, it's something they've obviously done since the Yamucha days of DB, but it's a real boring trick at this point, and as you say our characters are at such a level of strength at the moment that some nobody coming out of nowhere and rivalling them (with comparable strength to henchmen for arcs and arcs ago) makes them look like, well, total losers.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:18 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:38 pm
But "Ambitious storyline" is very important. No "Evil Goku fights Trunks so they go fight in the FUTURE and VEGETTO is back but Trunks does a SPIRIT BOMB but with his SWORD!!" or any other such paper-thin shit. Tell new stories that actually move the status quo forward. Never before Super had Dragon Ball ever run on the spot. Things were always changing. But come Super, a reset button is hit at the end of every arc...
A storyline can be ambitious even if the premise is unoriginal. Evil Goku is an old concept but Goku Black is a unique character with his own special personality, backstory, and powers, for example.

The only thing that would qualify as a "reset button" was the end of the Tournament of Power arc. The Future Trunks arc ended with the erasure of an entire timeline, which is actually a big deal, though it does not impact too much the present timeline. Even so, it is worth noting that now there are two Zeno in one timeline, which is a time anomaly. It remains to be seen if that will go anywhere.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:21 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:18 pm
A storyline can be ambitious even if the premise is unoriginal. Evil Goku is an old concept but Goku Black is a unique character with his own special personality, backstory, and powers, for example.
A villain having an edgy backstory and being really strong doesn't make for an ambitious storyline. Even if Zamasu's personality is somewhat new for a Dragon Ball villain. The storyline itself is still unoriginal, clichéd tripe, and then when they run out of plot at the end and wrote themselves into a corner, you get one of the most inane, asinine strings of multiple deus ex machinas that I've ever seen.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:18 pm
The only thing that would qualify as a "reset button" was the end of the Tournament of Power arc. The Future Trunks arc ended with the erasure of an entire timeline, which is actually a big deal, though it does not impact too much the present timeline. Even so, it is worth noting that now there are two Zeno in one timeline, which is a time anomaly. It remains to be seen if that will go anywhere.
The Black arc does end with a reset button though. Yes, a timeline is "Erased"... But it doesn't end up actually meaning anything. Trunks and Mai still leave (and they return home, essentially; they just go to an earlier point, and Whis kills Zamasu), and the actual main cast that we're gonna be focusing on (outside of peoples' fanfics and fan theories about what happens to Trunks that we don't get to see, that Super has no interest in showing us) have experienced no change to their status quo, progressed in no way as characters from where they started... Nothing has changed.

Yes, there are two Zenos... Man, what a big shakeup to the status quo that is... :P
Outside of the self-contained story stuff that happens for, that's had no effect on anything. In theory, it's a different situation to have two Zenos in the same timeline... But they're the same guy, they get along, they agree, and all that ends up happening is they hang out and do the same things, but they have slightly more interesting dialogue. You could try to analyse it and find that there's minor differences in the way Zeno behaves, but it makes no story difference, it makes no actual change to the way the show is presented, and ultimately Zeno himself hasn't developed at all...

Ultimately, the "changes" between arcs in Super are just minor aesthetic things, or unimportant details. Meanwhile, the differences in status quo between arcs of the original anime were huge. A lot of Dragon Ball's appeal came from the fact it never stood still, it was always changing. Nothing was static, there was no status quo. Super is all about status quo, all about nothing changing.
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:35 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:21 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:18 pm
A storyline can be ambitious even if the premise is unoriginal. Evil Goku is an old concept but Goku Black is a unique character with his own special personality, backstory, and powers, for example.
A villain having an edgy backstory and being really strong doesn't make for an ambitious storyline. Even if Zamasu's personality is somewhat new for a Dragon Ball villain. The storyline itself is still unoriginal, clichéd tripe, and then when they run out of plot at the end and wrote themselves into a corner, you get one of the most inane, asinine strings of multiple deus ex machinas that I've ever seen.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:18 pm
The only thing that would qualify as a "reset button" was the end of the Tournament of Power arc. The Future Trunks arc ended with the erasure of an entire timeline, which is actually a big deal, though it does not impact too much the present timeline. Even so, it is worth noting that now there are two Zeno in one timeline, which is a time anomaly. It remains to be seen if that will go anywhere.
The Black arc does end with a reset button though. Yes, a timeline is "Erased"... But it doesn't end up actually meaning anything. Trunks and Mai still leave (and they return home, essentially; they just go to an earlier point, and Whis kills Zamasu), and the actual main cast that we're gonna be focusing on (outside of peoples' fanfics and fan theories about what happens to Trunks that we don't get to see, that Super has no interest in showing us) have experienced no change to their status quo, progressed in no way as characters from where they started... Nothing has changed.

Yes, there are two Zenos... Man, what a big shakeup to the status quo that is... :P
Outside of the self-contained story stuff that happens for, that's had no effect on anything. In theory, it's a different situation to have two Zenos in the same timeline... But they're the same guy, they get along, they agree, and all that ends up happening is they hang out and do the same things, but they have slightly more interesting dialogue. You could try to analyse it and find that there's minor differences in the way Zeno behaves, but it makes no story difference, it makes no actual change to the way the show is presented, and ultimately Zeno himself hasn't developed at all...

Ultimately, the "changes" between arcs in Super are just minor aesthetic things, or unimportant details. Meanwhile, the differences in status quo between arcs of the original anime were huge. A lot of Dragon Ball's appeal came from the fact it never stood still, it was always changing. Nothing was static, there was no status quo. Super is all about status quo, all about nothing changing.
You can simplify anything to "edgy backstory" and then nothing is ambitious. Also, what does "run out of plot" mean? They didn't run out of plot, they just chose to write that dark ending in particular and executed it poorly.

You don't know if Super will never show Trunks and Mai again. That might be the case, or they'll just wait for the right moment to reintroduce them into the story. As for the two Zenos, it remains to be seen what will happen with them. Super's story is still ongoing, so we can't say with certainty that nothing will come out of those things.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:52 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:35 pm
You can simplify anything to "edgy backstory" and then nothing is ambitious.
When I said edgy backstory, I meant that there was no ambitious story going on, the only vaguely interesting thing is our villain showing his origin story, which -- as I say -- is basically just his edgy backstory; he's a sociopath who doesn't like mortals, he demonstrates his distaste, and eventually he decides his boss is too soft and kills him.
I'll grant you they tell this stuff well, but it's not particularly ambitious to say "Here is a bad guy who is bad because he's bad. Look at how bad he is." without anything else of interest going on.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:35 pm
Also, what does "run out of plot" mean? They didn't run out of plot, they just chose to write that dark ending in particular and executed it poorly.
They ran out of plot, as in: They reached a final battle, they exhausted all the heroes' options, and then didn't have any way to end it, so they unleashed a ton of deus ex machinas. The first brings us a light ending out of no where (hey look the baddy is dead because Trunks killed him with SPIRIT BOMB SWORD!!), the second undoes this for a dark ending (and then Zamasu survives it... For reasons... And kills everyone. Except our main characters. They're fine. Even Bulma and Mai. For reasons), then that gets undone because Goku summons Zeno, and he kills the universe, but that ends up meaning nothing, because Mai and Trunks just return to an earlier point in their timeline...

It's a mess. It's a hodgepodge. And the only part of it that ties into anything the story had been doing prior to the given event is that Goku was given the Zeno button already.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:35 pm
You don't know if Super will never show Trunks and Mai again. That might be the case, or they'll just wait for the right moment to reintroduce them into the story. As for the two Zenos, it remains to be seen what will happen with them. Super's story is still ongoing, so we can't say with certainty that nothing will come out of those things.
The story ends with Trunks leaving, and then we see nothing of what happens to them. The story ends with two Zenos, and nothing changes as a result of there being two. The next story arc starts, and starts from the same place the Black arc started, just with a couple of jokes here and there about there being two Zenos.

Again, my point is that there is no status quo change between arcs happening. Give someone Super, tell them a "Fun piece of trivia" that there are actually two Zenos when the first one shows up in the U6 arc, then skip over the Black arc, and your friend will have missed nothing. Because ultimately, the Tournament Of Power arc starts in the same place as the Black arc started. Which is also the same place the U6 arc started. Which is also the same place the TOP arc ends (except now Goku has a new transformation that he doesn't know how to use, I guess. What a big change to the entire status quo that is... :lol:).

Yes, it's possible these insubstantial changes that have meant nothing MIGHT be used for something later, but that doesn't dissuade my view that Super isn't working how Dragon Ball has worked before: Previously, Dragon Ball would change everything, every time, and each arc would have a new, unique set of circumstances going into it. Super has not done that since the ResF arc began.
Yes, it's POSSIBLE they could use the fact there's two Zenos or Trunks is out there to make for a different circumstances for a future arc, but they haven't done that so far, and judging from the manga's Moro arc so far, they aren't going to any time soon.
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:33 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:52 pm
When I said edgy backstory, I meant that there was no ambitious story going on, the only vaguely interesting thing is our villain showing his origin story, which -- as I say -- is basically just his edgy backstory; he's a sociopath who doesn't like mortals, he demonstrates his distaste, and eventually he decides his boss is too soft and kills him.
I'll grant you they tell this stuff well, but it's not particularly ambitious to say "Here is a bad guy who is bad because he's bad. Look at how bad he is." without anything else of interest going on.
But that's why it's ambitious. They showed how that happened. You can still have lame ideas but make them work in an ambitious way. That's why I appreciate how they devoted several episodes of that arc to exploring how the villain became who he is.

On the other hand, do you know what was not ambitious? Jiren's backstory. That was a pathetic excuse for a backstory which, by the way, lasted only two minutes. But the first part of the Future Trunks arc, with the whole Zamasu's backstory (we are talking about 6 or so episodes) and Goku Black's mystery, was honestly a very ambitious storyline. They tried to make a compelling villain, they tried to set the stage for a dramatic story, they tried to make people speculate and come up with all kinds of theories, and in a way they succeeded, because episode 47 was such a breath of fresh air compared to the previosu arcs of Super (so basically 2 movie retellings + 1 forgettable tournament arc).
They ran out of plot, as in: They reached a final battle, they exhausted all the heroes' options, and then didn't have any way to end it, so they unleashed a ton of deus ex machinas. The first brings us a light ending out of no where (hey look the baddy is dead because Trunks killed him with SPIRIT BOMB SWORD!!), the second undoes this for a dark ending (and then Zamasu survives it... For reasons... And kills everyone. Except our main characters. They're fine. Even Bulma and Mai. For reasons), then that gets undone because Goku summons Zeno, and he kills the universe, but that ends up meaning nothing, because Mai and Trunks just return to an earlier point in their timeline...

It's a mess. It's a hodgepodge. And the only part of it that ties into anything the story had been doing prior to the given event is that Goku was given the Zeno button already.
It was a very rushed ending, and I have often criticized that aspect of the arc (as well as Super's pacing in general, which in my opinion was stupid), but when I look at those concepts I think that the writers were genuinely trying to make an original ending. The usual "good guy defeats the bad guy with everyone's hope" ending is subverted, the villain becomes invincible, they need the literal intervention of God to win, and their victory is a hollow one. I think these are all good ideas on paper, but then they dropped the ball when it came to the execution.

I think you just need to separate the quality of X and how ambitious the idea of X was. An idea can be very ambitious but the end product is bad. I think this perfectly describes the Future Trunks ending. When you look at it from an impartial perspective, it is pretty ambitious, I mean, they erased an entire timeline, including all those characters people loved (Future Gohan, Future Bulma, all gone). But then the final product is bad because they just don't make it work in a way that impacts the main timeline. An easy fix that people proposed was to have Trunks stick to the present timeline and have him play a key role in the Tournament of Power arc. This way the ending of the Future Trunks arc would have been more relevant.
Previously, Dragon Ball would change everything, every time, and each arc would have a new, unique set of circumstances going into it. Super has not done that since the ResF arc began.
The problem with Super is that it takes place before the End of Z, so we already know what happens to all these people. So I am not surprised that the arcs of Super are way less impactful than the arcs of Z. They certainly can't have the same impact because then they'd have to retcon the End of Z, and I can see why the writers don't want to do that. Hopefully when the Moro arc is over we can move past that point, then we'll see if the things that happened in Super had some long-term consequences.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Skar » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:00 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:52 pm
Again, my point is that there is no status quo change between arcs happening. Give someone Super, tell them a "Fun piece of trivia" that there are actually two Zenos when the first one shows up in the U6 arc, then skip over the Black arc, and your friend will have missed nothing. Because ultimately, the Tournament Of Power arc starts in the same place as the Black arc started. Which is also the same place the U6 arc started. Which is also the same place the TOP arc ends (except now Goku has a new transformation that he doesn't know how to use, I guess. What a big change to the entire status quo that is... :lol:).
I thought it was odd how none of the other universe gods questioned why there were now two Zenos. I think some may have questioned it but they apparently didn't learn about Zamasu or that he successfully killed them in a different universe by exploiting the same weakness. You think that would be important to share among the gods to prevent something like that from happening again.

It's the same with the Mortal Ranking from the ToP. Moro is on a killing spree across the universe and Beerus is too lazy to stop him and no one is bringing up how it's affecting their mortal ranking. Knowing their universe was at the risk of being wiped out for having a low score should be enough incentive for Beerus to care I think. The only changes between sagas are additional characters like two Zenos in the present timeline or Freeza alive again and power-ups but that seems to be it. Since it's an interquel, I guess they don't want any major changes so it would be easier to transition to EoZ.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:33 pm

Skar wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:00 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:52 pm
Again, my point is that there is no status quo change between arcs happening. Give someone Super, tell them a "Fun piece of trivia" that there are actually two Zenos when the first one shows up in the U6 arc, then skip over the Black arc, and your friend will have missed nothing. Because ultimately, the Tournament Of Power arc starts in the same place as the Black arc started. Which is also the same place the U6 arc started. Which is also the same place the TOP arc ends (except now Goku has a new transformation that he doesn't know how to use, I guess. What a big change to the entire status quo that is... :lol:).
I thought it was odd how none of the other universe gods questioned why there were now two Zenos. I think some may have questioned it but they apparently didn't learn about Zamasu or that he successfully killed them in a different universe by exploiting the same weakness. You think that would be important to share among the gods to prevent something like that from happening again.
Rummshi learned of Zamasu's actions in the manga. He laments how the Destroyer of another universe had to step in to stop him and worries that the meeting organized by the Grand Priest might be about Zamasu.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:39 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:33 pm
But that's why it's ambitious. They showed how that happened. You can still have lame ideas but make them work in an ambitious way. That's why I appreciate how they devoted several episodes of that arc to exploring how the villain became who he is.
I'll admit it's new for Dragon Ball to show a baddy's backstory to any decent extent. But again, his backstory amount to "He was already a bad person, and he eventually realised his boss was holding him back."
That's not showing how he became a bad person. He was already advocating for all the mortals to die.

And again, showing the villain's backstory doesn't make the overall story ambitious. One unique-ish idea doesn't make the story better.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:33 pm
On the other hand, do you know what was not ambitious? Jiren's backstory. That was a pathetic excuse for a backstory which, by the way, lasted only two minutes.
Yeah. Geran's backstory was lame as hell. Don't think you'll get any disagreement there.

(Sidenote: Since his name is a pun on "Range", I spell his name as Geran. Not saying anyone else should, just thought I should clear that up in case there's any confusion)
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:33 pm
But the first part of the Future Trunks arc, with the whole Zamasu's backstory (we are talking about 6 or so episodes) and Goku Black's mystery, was honestly a very ambitious storyline. They tried to make a compelling villain, they tried to set the stage for a dramatic story, they tried to make people speculate and come up with all kinds of theories, and in a way they succeeded, because episode 47 was such a breath of fresh air compared to the previosu arcs of Super (so basically 2 movie retellings + 1 forgettable tournament arc).
Was it, though? Was it ambitious? That first episode set up a decent mystery "Why is evil Goku trying to kill Trunks?" but the more questions were answered, the more they actually told the story rather than just set up cool visuals, the more it was clear the story was not ambitious, it was just, in my view, dumb, clichéd nonsense.

Again, it's not Zamasu's backstory in terms of "How does someone radicalise to the point of seeking to destroy all mortals?", it was "How does someone who is already disgusted by mortal life decide to say 'Screw it' and kill his boss who's trying to explain to him the value of a life." He's already a bad person, he's already teetering on the edge, and what pushes him over is essentially just Goku spitting in his face.

He's a kinda neat character, Zamasu, but we don't see any substantial backstory to what made him who he is. The story we're seeing is the purely-plot-orientated thing of him deciding to kill Gowasu, conveniently right when Goku, Beerus, and Whis were watching, leading to the rest of the inane, dumb plot to unfold.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:33 pm
It was a very rushed ending, and I have often criticized that aspect of the arc (as well as Super's pacing in general, which in my opinion was stupid), but when I look at those concepts I think that the writers were genuinely trying to make an original ending. The usual "good guy defeats the bad guy with everyone's hope" ending is subverted, the villain becomes invincible, they need the literal intervention of God to win, and their victory is a hollow one. I think these are all good ideas on paper, but then they dropped the ball when it came to the execution.
Sure. But those aren't the only ideas here. Trunks kills the villain, straight up completely murders him using a technique we've never seen before that comes out of no-where, THEN the villain becomes invincible and they have to have god intervene... Then it turns out that everything is fine afterwards anyway...

It's just a mess top to bottom.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:33 pm
I think you just need to separate the quality of X and how ambitious the idea of X was. An idea can be very ambitious but the end product is bad. I think this perfectly describes the Future Trunks ending. When you look at it from an impartial perspective, it is pretty ambitious, I mean, they erased an entire timeline, including all those characters people loved (Future Gohan, Future Bulma, all gone). But then the final product is bad because they just don't make it work in a way that impacts the main timeline. An easy fix that people proposed was to have Trunks stick to the present timeline and have him play a key role in the Tournament of Power arc. This way the ending of the Future Trunks arc would have been more relevant.
Well, exactly. If the erasure of the timeline meant that Trunks could never return to it, either in its present form or to a later point, then it would have impact. Then it would actually mean something. But the Super writers (or Toriyama, or whoever) are so devoted to their status quo, nothing happens.

Ultimately, yes, the idea COULD have been ambitious if they had done an entirely different ending, and it would have helped if we'd actually seen what made Zamasu into the sociopathic madman we came to know rather than just seeing how a sociopathic madman decides to kill the first guy on his ideal path to eliminating all the mortals...
But ambitious idea =/= ambitious story.

You can go into anything with all the best intentions, and end up with a story that's ultimately drivel.
GT, for instance, has great examples of both. #17 arc has ambitious ideas of exploring the idea that all those villains are still hanging out in hell, and there's the idea of what happens if they work together to overrun hell and escape. But it ends up just being fanservice-y drivel. Then the Evil Dragons arc actually does fulfill its potential and ends up being GT's most ambitious storyline, ultimately concluding with the best ending we've ever seen to the Dragon Ball story.
And interestingly, the Evil Dragons arc does the "Dark ending that ultimately concludes on a compromise" that the Black arc failed to do; the villain killed Goku and was poised to destroy the planet. Goku is implied to have struck some kind of deal with Shen Long, somehow. Shen Long, the dragon god, ultimately bailed them out, but in exchange, the Dragon Balls, Goku, and Shen Long himself, all depart this world. Shen Long agrees to revive the dead, to give the remaining people on earth a chance to do things the right way this time, and the earth is left in the hands of its people.
There's a lot to that ending, and ultimately while the arc itself has its ups and downs, a lot of the reason it works is because not only is the setup novel and clever, but it ends with an even more novel, clever way that doesn't undercut anything that happened over the course of the arc. Even the arguably somewhat out-of-no-where "Goku uses a universal Genki-Dama" was set up as something that could happen back in the Boo arc, and hey, if it worked there, it makes sense that if Goku either wasn't really dead, or was back somehow, hidden from Yi Xing Long, then it would make sense...

Anyway, I'm gushing about GT now. Sorry. I'm not trying to take us into Super vs GT territory, I think that's a rather tiring discussion, but I think it works quite neatly to discuss the Super #17 and Evil Dragons arcs as a good example of both arguments here -- ambitious ideas vs ambitious storytelling.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:33 pm
The problem with Super is that it takes place before the End of Z, so we already know what happens to all these people. So I am not surprised that the arcs of Super are way less impactful than the arcs of Z. They certainly can't have the same impact because then they'd have to retcon the End of Z, and I can see why the writers don't want to do that. Hopefully when the Moro arc is over we can move past that point, then we'll see if the things that happened in Super had some long-term consequences.
Here's the thing though; I think people vastly overstate the constraints of setting a story before the epilogue.

If the ResF arc had ended with Freeza still alive, then that can still work. Why would Freeza show up to the tournament? Hell, he might even die at some point between his revival and the epilogue, so... That's fine. Let Freeza live in ResF, and you have him as a presence in the series that would really make a difference. And it gives Vegeta a justifiable drive to continue going hard into getting stronger, since he's already accepted that Goku is stronger than him, and he's resolved to be a more chill dude on the whole... This way, not only does he have something driving him in Super, he has a reason to have friction with Goku beyond just their rivalry, which he should have already made peace with... This way, he could be annoyed that Goku's not taking Freeza all that seriously as a threat; Vegeta can't stand that Freeza's out there, Goku is just fine to let it be and train at his own pace. Creates natural conflict within the goodguys, and keeps Goku and Vegeta slightly at odds in that fun way we all love.

U6 tournament, they could have had Champa win, and the two earths swap around, which could then serve for some fun shenanigans as that is attempted to be undone. We ultimately only see what happens in the epilogue on earth, so whether this is undone or not, it wouldn't matter to the original epilogue. Of course, how this would interact with Freeza's presence would be interesting. Perhaps Freeza now wants earth back so he can have his revenge without crossing universes. I dunno, there's a billion different things to do with this. Either way, Beerus and Whis no longer have jurisdiction over earth; it's Champa and Vados now. And Freeza is now in another universe. And now the protagonists don't know the local Namekians, if there are Namekians in U6... But they do now get to know the local Saiyans, since there are now more Saiyans than just Goku, Vegeta, and the halves of their children that take after their fathers... So this could be a very interesting shakeup.

Black arc, have Trunks's timeline elimination be permanent and render the timeline inaccessible at any point along its history from this point on. That and/or Beerus Champa refuses to let additional timelines be created just to make Trunks more comfortable, since he's already a time traveller which is something the gods in don't approve of (Beerus didn't approve in the series, presumably Champa and Vados would take issue here). So Trunks is stuck in our timeline. We already know about "Time Breaker Trunks", so maybe an arc at some point between here and the epilogue has him leave and join the Kaioshin of Time. Maybe this allows him to finally accept and move on from his failure.

TOP arc... Well, for starters, with earth now in Universe 6, the protagonists are now fighting AGAINST Freeza, and they're all fighting against the strong bois like Geran. Much more interesting, just from the get-go. And of course, Boo should actually be around, and we have Trunks too, fighting for the survival of the entire universe he now lives on... A universe Goku put into jeopardy by causing this tournament. Sounds much more interesting than what we got, right? An actually different situation from the get-go that actually follows up on what came before beyond just surface-level "hey we teased a tournament a while back. now we're doing that."
Anyway, at the end of the arc, the other universes are left dead. Freeza is gone, Beerus and Whis are gone (yes, we all love Beerus and Whis, but let's be honest, they were already wearing thin by this point anyway), the Namekians we know are gone, etc. etc. But earth is still there, thriving in Universe 6 (same universe as Hit, Frost, the other Saiyans like Cabba and Caulifla), and ultimately, earth's situation is still in one compatible with the original epilogue. Yes, probably whoever is left at the end asks for the other universes to come back... Zeno says "No," since the whole point here was to wipe out the weaker universes. He doesn't want to go back on that. Plus he thinks it would undercut the drama of this all to undo it (since Zeno is supposed to be like a stand-in for the viewers and/or the writers, so he likes watching people suffer for his entertainment, potentially setting up for a future arc where the mortals fight against Zeno and the angels or something weird like that, I dunno. I'm just spitballing here).

And, just as an addendum: If you're gonna ask about the Broly movie here, there's a simple answer -- put it between ResF and the U6 tournament, exactly in the form we saw it, just without the references to the TOP, Vegeta and Bulma's daughter, or Goku's untapped Ultra Instinct power. Aside from these offhand references and nods, the movie would still work exactly as we saw it earlier this year.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Skar » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:25 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:33 pm
Rummshi learned of Zamasu's actions in the manga. He laments how the Destroyer of another universe had to step in to stop him and worries that the meeting organized by the Grand Priest might be about Zamasu.
That was good of Toyotaro for at least having someone bring up Zamasu. Rummshi should know of Zamasu since it happened in his universe. I meant the other universe gods that have no idea why there are two Zenos now.

If someone watched the Freeza saga and skipped to Buu, they would be left wondering why is Goku dead, when did Gohan become a SSJ, why is Dende the new guardian, what happened to Kami, when did Vegeta and Bulma get a married, etc. If someone goes from the Champa saga directly to the ToP then the only question they would have is where did that other Zeno come from since no one explains his origin in that saga..

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:37 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:55 pm
Or let a series that ended its manga in 1995 and its anime in 1997 die...
Silly Masenko, nothing ever ends.
ABED wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:51 am
coola wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:30 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:21 pm
Not sure what you mean by this.
Maybe not changing rules, but retcons to some parts (Beerus ordering to destroy Planet Vegeta, Potara one hour fusion limit etc.) And power levels were very inconsistent.
Agreed to an extent, though the power level thing is not that big a deal except in the most egregious of examples. My go to is RoF when one of Freeza's new henchmen is said to be as strong as Zarbon and Dodoria, and somehow he's able to go toe to toe with Piccolo! When it's a disparity that huge, it breaks suspension of disbelief. The battle powers going off the charts during the fight against Freeza however does not.
As someone who watched ResF yesterday, I can tell you with absolute certainty that entire movie is made by Toriyama to shit post power scalers.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:44 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:37 am
As someone who watched ResF yesterday, I can tell you with absolute certainty that entire movie is made by Toriyama to shit post power scalers.
And to an extent, that's something I can get behind, but it's such an egregious example, it breaks willing suspension of disbelief for me.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:47 am

My problem is Toriyama didn't go far enough in intentionally shit posting people. Those were easily the most fun parts of the movie and they were too far from one another. I wanna see Krillin out-doing Blue Vegeta, SS Gohan getting knocked out by a stray pebble,...
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:05 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:47 am
My problem is Toriyama didn't go far enough in intentionally shit posting people. Those were easily the most fun parts of the movie and they were too far from one another. I wanna see Krillin out-doing Blue Vegeta, SS Gohan getting knocked out by a stray pebble,...
No on that. I get meta commentary, but there are times where it goes too far and it feels self indulgent on the part of the author.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:28 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:55 pm
Or let a series that ended its manga in 1995 and its anime in 1997 die...
We should've just let the thread end here honestly, because this is still the most correct/sane/logical answer.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Michsi » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:30 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:28 am
MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:55 pm
Or let a series that ended its manga in 1995 and its anime in 1997 die...
We should've just let the thread end here honestly, because this is still the most correct/sane/logical answer.

Y'know, I'm okay with people having this opinion in general, but what really ruffles my feathers is the attitude.


This incorrect fan here would love to see some add a pinch of seriousness and maybe some of that early nineties grittiness into its aesthetic.
But I suppose my nr. 1 desire is to see Goku's characterization to be less "buffoon that sometimes has serious moments" and more "experienced martial artist with a cheerful and carefree personality, and his own special brand of wisdom "

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:31 am

Michsi wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:30 am
Y'know, I'm okay with people having this opinion in general, but what really ruffles my feathers is the attitude.


This incorrect fan here would love to see...
I was expressing agreement and solidarity with Masenko's post. Yeah, with a healthy dose of snark, I admit. But I wasn't even remotely thinking about or calling out anyone in particular whatsoever: certainly not you at all. So the whole "this incorrect" fan thing, seemingly indicating like you were personally offended or insulted by the specific manner in my asserting a strong agreement with someone else (in an exchange that had literally nothing at all to do with you) is, if you'll pardon my saying... really, really bizarre, inexplicable, and out of nowhere.

I get tone policing when someone is being needlessly and overtly nasty to someone for no good reason: but tone policing over the level of strength, confidence, or conviction in which an opinion or viewpoint is held (particularly when its over something as inconsequential as a children's martial arts cartoon) seems... kinda warped.

Honest, sincere question. If I phrased it instead as:

"Over 35 posts in, and this is still the most sensible reply."

Would that have been any better? What's the inoffensive and attitude-free (to you) way of me expressing agreement with something without simply stating flatly "Yes, I agree with this"?

I probably shouldn't even be responding to this in the first place, but I'm legitimately taken aback how a single lone sentence that wasn't any sort of attack or personal insult directed at anyone still manages to find a way to personally offend and insult someone.

Not every strongly-worded dissenting view is some kind of coded, veiled insult or passive aggressive swipe at someone. Sometimes the cigar is just a cigar.
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: If a new series were to be developed, Toei should go for a different approach

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:49 am

There is no most correct or sane answer IMO. It's all a matter of taste / feeling towards something.
One can try and prove an opinion with arguments that are "as objective as possible".
But at the end it's still a very subjective matter.

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