It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by KBABZ » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:37 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:44 am
KBABZ wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:56 am
As another aside, I've always felt that the lack of home media releases is why the anime got away with incredibly blatant plot holes, because between the difficulty of seeing them again and the huge time between episodes (even in the US airings) nobody would really notice!
That's an interesting thought. Probably true, but I don't think plot holes matter to people nearly as much as some would have us believe.
I agree, I don't think the demographic DB+Z was going for would have cared that much about plot holes, haha. But my point was that the passage of time and the lack of a home media release until 10 years afterwards meant that plot holes like Dr. Frappe/Dr. Gero, Roshi's Dragon Ball legend, and the God of planet Vegeta destroying it in vengeance (among others), meant that a lot of Japanese fans likely never even noticed them and Toei totally got away with contradicting Toriyama's future writing. It was less pronounced for the US airings since they were closer together and the most passionate fans would have had access to the internet while the Japanese did not during their airings (plus the VHS tapes).

I think the closest the Japanese would have come to really noticing a plot hole during their schedule would have been with Goku's pod during the Saiyan arc, as there was a two and a half month gap between the filler episode 18 where Piccolo destroys Goku's pod, and Chapter 250 of the manga where Goku reveals the idea of using his pod for the basis of a spaceship.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by ABED » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:01 pm

Good points, and although this isn't the point of your post, even in the filler episode where Roshi tells the legend of the DB's, he prefaces it as being a rumor.
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by KBABZ » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:10 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:01 pm
Good points, and although this isn't the point of your post, even in the filler episode where Roshi tells the legend of the DB's, he prefaces it as being a rumor.
Correct, a very wise Get out of Jail Free play there on the part of the writers considering how central the Dragon Balls are to the story, especially at that time in the franchise!

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by armyandstuff » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:58 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:37 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:44 am
KBABZ wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:56 am
As another aside, I've always felt that the lack of home media releases is why the anime got away with incredibly blatant plot holes, because between the difficulty of seeing them again and the huge time between episodes (even in the US airings) nobody would really notice!
That's an interesting thought. Probably true, but I don't think plot holes matter to people nearly as much as some would have us believe.
I think the closest the Japanese would have come to really noticing a plot hole during their schedule would have been with Goku's pod during the Saiyan arc, as there was a two and a half month gap between the filler episode 18 where Piccolo destroys Goku's pod, and Chapter 250 of the manga where Goku reveals the idea of using his pod for the basis of a spaceship.
Didn't goku say that his pod was broken though? I recall him saying that it would take some time for Dr Brief to fix it, and that he assumed he broke it when he was a baby, which could be interpreted in the anime as Piccolo breaking it but not destroying it completely to the point of it being unsalvagable.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Dragon Sponge » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:51 pm

armyandstuff wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:58 pm
KBABZ wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:37 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:44 am
That's an interesting thought. Probably true, but I don't think plot holes matter to people nearly as much as some would have us believe.
I think the closest the Japanese would have come to really noticing a plot hole during their schedule would have been with Goku's pod during the Saiyan arc, as there was a two and a half month gap between the filler episode 18 where Piccolo destroys Goku's pod, and Chapter 250 of the manga where Goku reveals the idea of using his pod for the basis of a spaceship.
Didn't goku say that his pod was broken though? I recall him saying that it would take some time for Dr Brief to fix it, and that he assumed he broke it when he was a baby, which could be interpreted in the anime as Piccolo breaking it but not destroying it completely to the point of it being unsalvagable.
In the German Dub Dr. Briefs and Goku have the following conversation About the destroyed Pod:

Dr. Briefs: "Not an easy Project, your Spacepod was in an lousy condition, not to say it´s debris was everywhere, however patching it together was a lot of fun to me, luckely the important Parts did stay intact."

Goku: "What you do not say, my Pod was really destroyed? Strange i cannot remember what happened back then."

I´m sure in the japanese original they say something similar in this Scene, and most likely Mistare Fusion will clarify this Topic in his Anime Frieza Arc Dissection.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:47 pm

Dragon Sponge wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:51 pm
In the German Dub Dr. Briefs and Goku have the following conversation About the destroyed Pod:

Dr. Briefs: "Not an easy Project, your Spacepod was in an lousy condition, not to say it´s debris was everywhere, however patching it together was a lot of fun to me, luckely the important Parts did stay intact."

Goku: "What you do not say, my Pod was really destroyed? Strange i cannot remember what happened back then."

I´m sure in the japanese original they say something similar in this Scene, and most likely Mistare Fusion will clarify this Topic in his Anime Frieza Arc Dissection.
Well, since I don't actually plan on covering it in my videos, I'll go ahead and tell you that the Japanese dialogue here is pretty similar!
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Dragon Sponge » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:27 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:47 pm
Dragon Sponge wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:51 pm
In the German Dub Dr. Briefs and Goku have the following conversation About the destroyed Pod:

Dr. Briefs: "Not an easy Project, your Spacepod was in an lousy condition, not to say it´s debris was everywhere, however patching it together was a lot of fun to me, luckely the important Parts did stay intact."

Goku: "What you do not say, my Pod was really destroyed? Strange i cannot remember what happened back then."

I´m sure in the japanese original they say something similar in this Scene, and most likely Mistare Fusion will clarify this Topic in his Anime Frieza Arc Dissection.
Well, since I don't actually plan on covering it in my videos, I'll go ahead and tell you that the Japanese dialogue here is pretty similar!
Oh, well then thanks for clarifyng it here Mistare Fusion :thumbup:

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:21 pm

Roshi's Dragon Ball legend, and the God of planet Vegeta destroying it in vengeance...
Roshi's story about the Dragon Balls doesn't really contradict the later mythology in my view, rumor or otherwise. Same with the God of Planet Vegeta.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:23 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:21 pm
Roshi's story about the Dragon Balls doesn't really contradict the later mythology in my view, rumor or otherwise. Same with the God of Planet Vegeta.
I agree with you on the Dragon Ball myth, but the "God of Planet Vegeta" story comes from a god who certainly knows the real story since he knows exactly who Freeza is and why he should be avoided.
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:30 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:23 pm
I agree with you on the Dragon Ball myth, but the "God of Planet Vegeta" story comes from a god who certainly knows the real story since he knows exactly who Freeza is and why he should be avoided.
Said-god also if you'll recall *desperately* didn't want Goku running headlong into battle with Freeza at pretty much every given turn, and thus would have a pretty good reason to purposefully withhold the truth so as to not risk inspiring his newest Saiya-jin pupil into going after Freeza.

Obviously this is total after-the-fact fan-wankery for a filler scene, but it does still follow pretty reasonably all the same.
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:51 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:23 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:21 pm
Roshi's story about the Dragon Balls doesn't really contradict the later mythology in my view, rumor or otherwise. Same with the God of Planet Vegeta.
I agree with you on the Dragon Ball myth, but the "God of Planet Vegeta" story comes from a god who certainly knows the real story since he knows exactly who Freeza is and why he should be avoided.
I'm not saying that Kaio telling the story isn't a plothole. Just that the story itself doesn't necessarily contradict the later version, since everyone believed that the planet was destroyed in a meteor shower.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Dragon Sponge » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:01 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:30 pm
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:23 pm
I agree with you on the Dragon Ball myth, but the "God of Planet Vegeta" story comes from a god who certainly knows the real story since he knows exactly who Freeza is and why he should be avoided.
Said-god also if you'll recall *desperately* didn't want Goku running headlong into battle with Freeza at pretty much every given turn, and thus would have a pretty good reason to purposefully withhold the truth so as to not risk inspiring his newest Saiya-jin pupil into going after Freeza.

Obviously this is total after-the-fact fan-wankery for a filler scene, but it does still follow pretty reasonably all the same.
Interestingly in the German Dub the Stuff About the God of Planet Vegeta was somewhat different, there Kaio dosen´t uses the Word God there but says instead: "But a Mighty Being watched over the Galaxy, the gruesomeness of the Saiajins became unbearable and so it turned for punishment of those radical People a huge swarm meteorites over which hit directly Vegeta."

I don´t know if this Change came from the French Dub or if the German Dialog Writers did know About Frieza destroying Vegeta already and might have tried here to fix a Plot Hole somewhat. But its still a rather interresting Change.

Him speaking of an Mighty Being that watched over the Galaxy could, i you don´t know it better Pretty much be interpretet as him speaking vaguely About Frieza, but withholding there from Goku thats its an actuall Evil Being. Even the stuff About the Gruesomeness of the Saiyans that became too unbearable and the Meteor Swarm could be seen as the truth from a certain Point ov view, gruesomeness could be seen as the ever growing strengh of the Saiyans which was one of the reasons he wiped them out and his Death Ball with which he destroyed the Planet could be seen as an Huge Energy Meteor.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by KBABZ » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:44 pm

On Goku's pod, the dialogue is similar to the German version quote above, but I figured that was mainly due to the passage of time and Goku's rowdy behaviour when he first landed. If it was completely destroyed, I feel Dr. Brief's dialogue would have been more dire about the state of the pod, rather than "well it was rusty AF but it worked". It contradicts the manga in a different way though: Gohan and Piccolo were training on an island at the time, but Grandpa Gohan has always consistently found Goku in the Mount Paozu area, with the implication that he found him on one of his walks.

As for the Planet Vegeta filler, I personally felt that Kaio did not have much of a reputation for lying to people to protect them, and I also didn't get the impression that the God of Planet Vegeta in the story was himself, instead being Vegeta's equivalent to Kami. The meteor shower story with Dodoria's telling the real story falls under the category as a retcon disguised as a twist/reveal so that Goku and Vegeta have more personal stakes in fighting Frieza.

Speaking of retcons, Goku's age reveal in the 21st TB totally counts as one IMO!

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by ABED » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:49 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:44 pm
On Goku's pod, the dialogue is similar to the German version quote above, but I figured that was mainly due to the passage of time and Goku's rowdy behaviour when he first landed. If it was completely destroyed, I feel Dr. Brief's dialogue would have been more dire about the state of the pod, rather than "well it was rusty AF but it worked". It contradicts the manga in a different way though: Gohan and Piccolo were training on an island at the time, but Grandpa Gohan has always consistently found Goku in the Mount Paozu area, with the implication that he found him on one of his walks.

As for the Planet Vegeta filler, I personally felt that Kaio did not have much of a reputation for lying to people to protect them, and I also didn't get the impression that the God of Planet Vegeta in the story was himself, instead being Vegeta's equivalent to Kami. The meteor shower story with Dodoria's telling the real story falls under the category as a retcon disguised as a twist/reveal so that Goku and Vegeta have more personal stakes in fighting Frieza.

Speaking of retcons, Goku's age reveal in the 21st TB totally counts as one IMO!
I guess you could count his age being a retcon, but I wouldn't as it makes complete sense for Goku to not know how to count.

A retcon is when old information is overwritten as if it had always been there. A reveal is when the audience is given new information. Sometimes the line between the two is a little blurry.

As much as I would like to believe Kunzait's theory, and while I don't think it's out of character for Kaio to lie to protect someone, I don't think he knows Goku well enough at that point to hold back the truth from him.
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by armyandstuff » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:05 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:49 pm
KBABZ wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:44 pm
On Goku's pod, the dialogue is similar to the German version quote above, but I figured that was mainly due to the passage of time and Goku's rowdy behaviour when he first landed. If it was completely destroyed, I feel Dr. Brief's dialogue would have been more dire about the state of the pod, rather than "well it was rusty AF but it worked". It contradicts the manga in a different way though: Gohan and Piccolo were training on an island at the time, but Grandpa Gohan has always consistently found Goku in the Mount Paozu area, with the implication that he found him on one of his walks.

As for the Planet Vegeta filler, I personally felt that Kaio did not have much of a reputation for lying to people to protect them, and I also didn't get the impression that the God of Planet Vegeta in the story was himself, instead being Vegeta's equivalent to Kami. The meteor shower story with Dodoria's telling the real story falls under the category as a retcon disguised as a twist/reveal so that Goku and Vegeta have more personal stakes in fighting Frieza.

Speaking of retcons, Goku's age reveal in the 21st TB totally counts as one IMO!
I guess you could count his age being a retcon, but I wouldn't as it makes complete sense for Goku to not know how to count.

A retcon is when old information is overwritten as if it had always been there. A reveal is when the audience is given new information. Sometimes the line between the two is a little blurry.

As much as I would like to believe Kunzait's theory, and while I don't think it's out of character for Kaio to lie to protect someone, I don't think he knows Goku well enough at that point to hold back the truth from him.
Oh so that's why Goku never took power levels seriously, because he wasn't able to measure them :lol:

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Xeogran » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:13 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:12 pm
The totality of the Dragon Ball series was great, but I can't point to a particular episode and say, "Man, that episode was great." They're all just vehicles to get to the next episode -- it's very rare that there's any finality in them.
Absolutely wrong. I can point many spectacular DBZ episodes that are amazing even when watched on it's own. Let me give you an example or two:

-> Goten vs Kid Trunks (Episode 212)
Can be watched and enjoyed without caring about what happens next. The fight is settled in one episode, but it's a fascinating one, polished and animated with passion.

-> Future Trunks saving his timeline from Androids and Cell (Episode 194)
Another one-off episode full of action starring a popular character and showing his growth. He doesn't return until Super, so this concluded his arc for over two decades.

Yes, DBZ had many "and what happens next?" episode type endings, but there were just plenty of amazing 24 minute long spectacles. Not even starting on all the enjoyable filler like the Driving Episode.

There's a reason this franchise has many ICONIC scenes. They stand above ordinary episodes.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by ABED » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:25 pm

Xeogran wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:13 pm
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:12 pm
The totality of the Dragon Ball series was great, but I can't point to a particular episode and say, "Man, that episode was great." They're all just vehicles to get to the next episode -- it's very rare that there's any finality in them.
Absolutely wrong. I can point many spectacular DBZ episodes that are amazing even when watched on it's own. Let me give you an example or two:

-> Goten vs Kid Trunks (Episode 212)
Can be watched and enjoyed without caring about what happens next. The fight is settled in one episode, but it's a fascinating one, polished and animated with passion.

-> Future Trunks saving his timeline from Androids and Cell (Episode 194)
Another one-off episode full of action starring a popular character and showing his growth. He doesn't return until Super, so this concluded his arc for over two decades.

Yes, DBZ had many "and what happens next?" episode type endings, but there were just plenty of amazing 24 minute long spectacles. Not even starting on all the enjoyable filler like the Driving Episode.

There's a reason this franchise has many ICONIC scenes. They stand above ordinary episodes.
Scenes? Yes. Episodes? No. Most aren't self contained. It's FAR easier to point to individual episodes where it contains a particular event. The easy ones are TB matches that last a single episode. However, most DB episodes blend into each other. It's a criticism I have about many TV shows these days. I like a good ongoing story, but many shows could benefit from giving individual episodes one goal or event. I'm not talking about a stand alone, though I'm not averse to that, I'm saying the individual episode has the characters attempting to accomplish one single goal, but it still plays into the larger narrative arc. Breaking Bad mastered that approach to serialized TV.

My hot take: The driving episode is boring. Kuririn breaking up with his girlfriend was a much better single filler episode.
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by KBABZ » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:14 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:49 pm
I guess you could count his age being a retcon, but I wouldn't as it makes complete sense for Goku to not know how to count.

A retcon is when old information is overwritten as if it had always been there. A reveal is when the audience is given new information. Sometimes the line between the two is a little blurry.
I have a slightly different interpretation of retcon. Of course the word derives from "retroactive continuity" and started with your definition (like when a comic tells an origin story that has significant differences), but for me the use of the word has grown a bit. The Goku age revision is in the spirit of a retcon, which is adjusting past events/information to fit the current story. In this case it's disguised very well under Goku's lack of education to explain why he gave the original answer. The revision makes Goku the youngest of the Dragon Ball Gang, which adds to the "who the hell IS this kid??" mystique that was a defining facet of his character during his youth.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by ABED » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:32 pm

How has it grown?

It's not really disguised. It doesn't contradict anything other than a previous statement that can't be trusted. Retcons overwhelmingly tend to be transparent. Sure, we're just supposed to pretend that Superman and Batman weren't contemporaries of the JSA.

It's not as though Goku's age change was drastic.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:54 pm

I don’t really regard the age thing as a retcon. Goku says he’s 14 but surprise he just thought 14 came after 11.


But also I guess Goku was 12 for 2 years in a row? Since he was apparently 12 for both the first two Dragon Ball hunts

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