It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

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Cure Dragon 255
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:48 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:38 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:31 pm
...I love you GafferTape, but what does any of this have to do with the topic of the thread?
Well, I definitely mea culpa to that. You're absolutely right that it has nothing to do with the thread. But come on. Why single me out specifically when I neither started this conversation nor have contributed the most posts about it? :P
Because you are the big kid here and you should take responsibility lol!

Nah, just kidding, I was just looking forward to someone with a lot of actual knowledge to tell the topic creator why " DBZ was successful on Japanese TV". You or Kunzait or even Vegetto EX LOL.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:50 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:48 pm
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:38 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:31 pm
...I love you GafferTape, but what does any of this have to do with the topic of the thread?
Well, I definitely mea culpa to that. You're absolutely right that it has nothing to do with the thread. But come on. Why single me out specifically when I neither started this conversation nor have contributed the most posts about it? :P
Because you are the big kid here and you should take responsibility lol!

Nah, just kidding, I was just looking forward to someone with a lot of actual knowledge to tell the topic creator why " DBZ was successful on Japanese TV". You or Kunzait or even Vegetto EX LOL.
Is there really fact about viewing habits that you think anyone is going to shine on this issue other than binge watching is a new phenomena? Even then, plenty of people still like watching shows one week at a time. I find this whole question to be an odd one. Yes, even with filler, I can see why people would still tune into DB (why still just DBZ?). Even with all the filler, the series still felt like it was building towards something.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:53 pm

Confirmed. Gaffer Tape IS the big kid around here. LOL

I know that Binge watching is a new thing, but the topic creator didnt mention that. They specifically mention that "Western people got to watch many new episodes a week". Which is similar but not the same as binge watching. I know the topic creator was not only western-centric but ALSO present-centric.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:55 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:53 pm
Confirmed. Gaffer Tape IS the big kid around here. LOL

I know that Binge watching is a new thing, but the topic creator didnt mention that. They specifically mention that "Western people got to watch many new episodes a week". Which is similar but not the same as binge watching.
Not my point, though I can see where you might be confused. I was saying that people were used to seeing things once a week. It was just the way it was.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:57 pm

I know! And I like that you answered the question.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by TVfan721 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:58 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:50 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:48 pm
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:38 pm


Well, I definitely mea culpa to that. You're absolutely right that it has nothing to do with the thread. But come on. Why single me out specifically when I neither started this conversation nor have contributed the most posts about it? :P
Because you are the big kid here and you should take responsibility lol!

Nah, just kidding, I was just looking forward to someone with a lot of actual knowledge to tell the topic creator why " DBZ was successful on Japanese TV". You or Kunzait or even Vegetto EX LOL.
Is there really fact about viewing habits that you think anyone is going to shine on this issue other than binge watching is a new phenomena? Even then, plenty of people still like watching shows one week at a time. I find this whole question to be an odd one.
I never said shows airing once a week can't be successful. They are plenty throughout history in North America that were huge successes with the once-a-week format. I'm mentioning DBZ because of how much it dragged on due to the huge amount of filler. When you take a show like that and break it down to a once a week format, it becomes very hard to watch and stick through. Obviously, it wasn't an issue in Japan and the manga occurring at the same time as the anime played a role in that for sure. Going back to 1999 in North America though, no, I don't think it would've worked well. People would've lost interest and tuned out. If something like Dragon Ball Kai came along in 99 though, with no filler, and tight, fast-paced story telling with no filler, THAT would've worked in a once-a-week format just like it did on Toonzai in 2011. The original DBZ, as great as the high points are, drags on like a motherfucker, and when you split it up in a weekly format, it's unbearable.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by KBABZ » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:00 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:31 pm
...I love you GafferTape, but what does any of this have to do with the topic of the thread?
Because I unknownlingy opened a huge can of worms two pages ago and now I have to live with my actions.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:29 pm

Going back to 1999 in North America though, no, I don't think it would've worked well.
But it did. It was popular in syndication, which is why CN took notice. I think you are looking at this purely from your POV. While filler was talked about back in the 90s, it wasn't nearly as big of a sticking point as it was for many nowadays.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:48 pm

Yeah. Like, that episode with the robot and Gohan is a beloved character driven filler episode that many loved, even way back when.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:16 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:48 pm
Yeah. Like, that episode with the robot and Gohan is a beloved character driven filler episode that many loved, even way back when.
The episode was also skipped in the US until the uncut redub in 2005.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:24 am

TVfan721 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:58 pm
I'm mentioning DBZ because of how much it dragged on due to the huge amount of filler. When you take a show like that and break it down to a once a week format, it becomes very hard to watch and stick through. Obviously, it wasn't an issue in Japan and the manga occurring at the same time as the anime played a role in that for sure. Going back to 1999 in North America though, no, I don't think it would've worked well. People would've lost interest and tuned out. If something like Dragon Ball Kai came along in 99 though, with no filler, and tight, fast-paced story telling with no filler, THAT would've worked in a once-a-week format just like it did on Toonzai in 2011. The original DBZ, as great as the high points are, drags on like a motherfucker, and when you split it up in a weekly format, it's unbearable.
Again if fans can wait through months of endless reruns without losing interest they could deal with only getting one new episode a week especially as that would result in less reruns.

You act like USA fans didn’t notice DBZ’s glacier pacing even back then. Not true. Even in the height of the show’s popularity in the US people were well aware that Dragon Ball Z could tend to be Drag-On Ball Z.

Dragon Ball Z being a successful Japanese cartoon aimed at grade school boys that aired once a week with copious amounts of filler and padding isn’t even unique to DBZ. See Bleach, Naruto, Yu-Gi-Oh, anything under the Shonen label really.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:28 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:16 am
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:48 pm
Yeah. Like, that episode with the robot and Gohan is a beloved character driven filler episode that many loved, even way back when.
The episode was also skipped in the US until the uncut redub in 2005.
I meant in 80's Japan contextually. USA isnt the center of the world.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:29 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:28 am
MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:16 am
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:48 pm
Yeah. Like, that episode with the robot and Gohan is a beloved character driven filler episode that many loved, even way back when.
The episode was also skipped in the US until the uncut redub in 2005.
I meant in 80's Japan contextually. USA isnt the center of the world.
It’s not, but I thought you were adding to what Abed said about the show doing well in syndication in the US. My bad.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by MetaMoss » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:44 am

Against my better judgement, I'm going to bring this back up to say...
ABED wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:23 pm
Here's the problem with many terms, people misuse them all the time even if they should know better. Case in point, how many times are series revivals called reboots even by people in the media? If the new version of Swamp Things origins fit in seamlessly, it's not a retcon.

The reason it's narrow is because there's no reason to combine something that has so little consequence and can easily and logically be explained away in universe with something so blatant.
And this is improper use of "retcon" according to....who exactly? Because I found this Usenet post, and:
Damian Cugley wrote:
RD Francis wrote: For some reason, I think that the original retcons did not involve the invalidation of past stories, but rather carefully sliding new stories/facts into the existing tapestry of the character's life, in such a way that, while some significant change had occured, no past stories were invalidated.

Over the years, retcons have become more disruptive/destructive of the established continuity, and so that's what we've come to expect.
I am the originator of the word "retcon" and the older meaning is the one I meant. (Not that I can claim to be an authority or anything!)
While it's apparent Cugley didn't come up with the whole concept of retroactive continuity itself, he is the one credited with coming up with the "retcon" abbreviation. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a better source on what "retcon" was actually created for.
Do me a favor and just pretend there's something cool or witty or profound down here.

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:48 am

For some reason I genuinely thought ABED said that without an hint of irony lol.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:45 am

TVfan721 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:58 pm
I never said shows airing once a week can't be successful. They are plenty throughout history in North America that were huge successes with the once-a-week format. I'm mentioning DBZ because of how much it dragged on due to the huge amount of filler. When you take a show like that and break it down to a once a week format, it becomes very hard to watch and stick through. Obviously, it wasn't an issue in Japan and the manga occurring at the same time as the anime played a role in that for sure.
It goes a bit deeper than that though. In Japan, in the 80s and early 90s (when Dragon Ball was still a new, ongoing property in its original run), Dragon Ball - and really, most Shonen titles of its ilk - was culturally known as a manga FIRST and an anime SECOND and ancillary to the manga.

Western fans tend to over-emphasize and internalize solely our own perspective on the series (and even then, our perspective mainly from the late 90s onward) which is as an anime first and foremost, and a manga MAYBE secondary, if at all even.

The Dragon Ball manga in Japan was the dog wagging the anime's tail insofar as Japanese pop culture and most of its Japanese audience was concerned. The anime didn't "drag" to most Japanese DB fans at the time because most of the Japanese viewership for the anime back then were ALSO reading and following the manga as well. The anime was a supplement to the manga (which was the primary focal point), not the other way around.

This was again, not even unique to Dragon Ball, but was the standard practice (both business-wise and pop-culturally) for the VAST overwhelming majority of mainstream children's anime & manga properties, such as those featured in Shonen Jump. It was also fairly commonplace even within Seinen, as even a fair amount of adult-aimed anime based on adult-aimed manga was often seen and handled in a somewhat similar light, with the manga as being more of the main focus for most people and its anime treated as more of a supplemental way of helping promote the manga, almost as more of a "bonus" for fans of the manga (though in the case of Seinen, I don't think that paradigm is to quite as widespread of a degree as it tends to be with Shonen, but that gets to be a bit hair-splitty after a certain point).

In some ways (in some ways, mind you), its honestly not entirely dissimilar from how American comic book properties like those of Marvel and DC were ostensibly handled for a long time way back in the day: where television cartoon adaptations of comic book characters like the X-Men, Spider-Man, and Batman and so on were (at least in the comic publishers' eyes) seen and treated more as ancillary promotional vehicles for the main, primary medium for these properties, which for a long time was comics.

Obviously that's shifted a TON in later years, and nowadays what were once the ancillary "tie-in" media for American comics (TV, film, etc) are now MUCH more treated as closer to the primary media (at least from a marketing standpoint), while comics have been rendered ever-increasingly more niche in the U.S. as time's gone on.

But over in Japan, and certainly in the case of most Shonen like Dragon Ball back in the 80s and early 90s, that paradigm was very much firmly the case. Most Japanese DB fans back then likely didn't get "frustrated" or "impatient" with the anime's pacing because they were typically already ahead of where the anime was via the manga: the anime was more of an extra bonus.

TVfan721 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:58 pm
Going back to 1999 in North America though, no, I don't think it would've worked well. People would've lost interest and tuned out. If something like Dragon Ball Kai came along in 99 though, with no filler, and tight, fast-paced story telling with no filler, THAT would've worked in a once-a-week format just like it did on Toonzai in 2011. The original DBZ, as great as the high points are, drags on like a motherfucker, and when you split it up in a weekly format, it's unbearable.
You're assuming that everyone and anyone who might've gotten the Dragon Ball license back then would've primed it for TV airing straight away, and that's honestly not entirely true. Before Toonami, there was a fairly stark divide between U.S. licensors who aired anime on regular kids' TV (generally in a badly edited and Westernized format) and licensors who simply released anime straight to video (most often uncut and bilingual) for what was back then a TOTALLY different market & audience (i.e. one that was much older and much more "in the know" about what anime was at the time).

Dragon Ball happened to end up in the hands of one of the former (FUNimation and Saban), but it VERY easily could've also just as well wound up in the hands of one of the latter (Pioneer, Viz, U.S. Renditions, or what have you). Had a company like Pioneer or U.S. Renditions gotten hold of it instead, its far more likely than most people here think that Dragon Ball would've simply ended up released straight to video, uncut and bilingual, right from the jump (circa 1996) and maybe never seen the light of day on kids' TV here at all.

The way the anime licensing industry worked back then (80s and most of the 90s) was VERY different compared to the 2000s and onward, and nowhere near ALL of it back then was so singularly and stringently devoted to children's TV airings as younger fanbases like this one tend to just blanketly and automatically assume that they were.
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by kei17 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:01 am

When I see this kind of discussions, I always think the Western fans tend to ignore how the DB franchise was tremendously successful solely with the original manga. Actually, the manga was always the biggest thing back then. With the serialization ending over 20 years ago and countless times of rebroadcasting, the anime has grown big and the original manga now has a less presence, though.

So, why was the DB anime successful on Japanese TV? That's because it was already a successful series.

*Edit: Oh, never mind. It's explained better in the post above. Haha.
Last edited by kei17 on Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:11 am

I knew it. I FUCKING KNEW IT. I knew I could count on Kunzait to give a proper argument and context to his arguments and thus be the best to answer the question poised by this thread.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:26 am

MetaMoss wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:44 am
And this is improper use of "retcon" according to....who exactly? Because I found this Usenet post, and:
Proving what? That you can find a post from the person who shortened a term? Do you not see the irony in posting something where said "originator" says flat out "not that I claim to be an authority or anything". And lastly, this is about boiling down the term to its essentials, not appeal to authority.
So, why was the DB anime successful on Japanese TV? That's because it was already a successful series.
Yes and no. There's good reason to think the adaptation would follow suit, but it's no guarantee.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: It's actually amazing that DBZ was successful on Japanese TV

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:12 am

Oh yeah, totally forgot that Yu-Gi-Oh aired weekly in the states too, and that show often had WORSE pacing than Dragon Ball with all those 3 or 4 episode duels in the Battle City arc and long 30+ episode filler arcs. Yet it was incredibly successful.
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