Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:31 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:17 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:55 pm
I'm talking about the anime here. In the anime Black managed to unlock an even greater strength by using the power of his own anger and Goku and Vegeta hadn't maxed out their Zenkai yet, as the Tournament of Power shows.

We don't know how much stronger Black was over Goku and Vegeta once he got his Ki Scythe. Vegeta dodged Black's initial strike fairly easily, it wasn't until the portal thing opened that he gained some sort of upper hand because they didnt know how to get around that illusion thing or whatever it was. Had Black towered over Goku and Vegeta that much, he would've just killed them right there and Trunks too but instead opted to fuse instead.

There were no Zenkais in the Tournament of Power Goku and Vegeta constantly powering up into Blue even after constantly being beat down was just tenacity more than anything ( horribly executed btw) but by no way were there any near death power ups. Even Ultra Instinct at the end of the day was achieved just by Goku's sheer will not to lose. Same with Blue Evolution.
We don't know how stronger he was, but we know that he was already much stronger after getting pushed back by Vegeta. And if I fighting genius tells me that they don't understand how powerful they became, then I think it's pretty telling that we are dealing with no average power-up here. We also know that he had not even reached his ceiling yet, as he planned to get stronger from the rage of Goku and Trunks after Future Zamasu killed Trunks, Bulma, and Mai (which he failed to do, due to the Mafuba technique).

He probably could have killed them if he wanted to, or anyway he could have greatly damaged them. He just chose not to. There's a reason why he never fought them and just let his clones do all the work. He still had some uses for them. He never went through with this plan for a simple reason: after seeing just how shocked Zamasu was, he pussied out and fused. They both overreacted. I can't blame them, because Future Zamasu came very close to being eliminated from the battle. Finally, Gowasu mentions in episode 65 how Black had ultimate strength, and if I am not mistaken a Toei writer even said once in an interview that Black was the strongest non-fused character (excluding Beerus and co. of course), but I'll have to check this.

We do know there were Zenkais in the Tournament of Power. Vegeta berated Belmod for thinking that Goku had reached the limit of his potential, and reminded him that in those 48 minutes each Saiyan, even those of universe 6, managed to break their limits and ascend to an even higher power, so he pointed out to Belmod that it was foolish to believe that Goku could not step over the state of the Gods. Zenkai aren't just near-death power-ups.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:16 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:31 pm


We don't know how stronger he was, but we know that he was already much stronger after getting pushed back by Vegeta. And if I fighting genius tells me that they don't understand how powerful they became, then I think it's pretty telling that we are dealing with no average power-up here. We also know that he had not even reached his ceiling yet, as he planned to get stronger from the rage of Goku and Trunks after Future Zamasu killed Trunks, Bulma, and Mai (which he failed to do, due to the Mafuba technique).
That just seems like how you chose to interpret that seen and statement and that doesnt make much sense given future events. If Black was already astoundingly stronger than Goku and Vegeta prior to the fusion, How in the world was Goku able to permanently mutilate Fused Zamasu when he has Blacks power multiplied over?
He probably could have killed them if he wanted to, or anyway he could have greatly damaged them. He just chose not to. There's a reason why he never fought them and just let his clones do all the work. He still had some uses for them. He never went through with this plan for a simple reason: after seeing just how shocked Zamasu was, he pussied out and fused. They both overreacted. I can't blame them, because Future Zamasu came very close to being eliminated from the battle. Finally, Gowasu mentions in episode 65 how Black had ultimate strength, and if I am not mistaken a Toei writer even said once in an interview that Black was the strongest non-fused character (excluding Beerus and co. of course), but I'll have to check this.
So like every typical villain he chose to play with his food until it was too late, they pulled the wool over his eyes and then he gets scared and panics and uses his final trump card, fusion. Which is all the same anyway because he still gets stronger anyway so it really doesn't matter. He knew he coudn't underestimate his foes so he put his absolute best foot forward and fused. Maybe that power up wasn't as large as he might've thought.
We do know there were Zenkais in the Tournament of Power. Vegeta berated Belmod for thinking that Goku had reached the limit of his potential, and reminded him that in those 48 minutes each Saiyan, even those of universe 6, managed to break their limits and ascend to an even higher power, so he pointed out to Belmod that it was foolish to believe that Goku could not step over the state of the Gods. Zenkai aren't just near-death power-ups.
Since when were Zenkais referred to anything other than a near death recovery power up? I've heard of Rage Boosts which is also a fan term and one could say that a few of those might have happened during the arc but zenkais? No way. Powering up and pushing past your limit (Vegeta) is not a zenkai, he was just releasing his absolute full power.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:53 pm

I would prefer using Gokuu and Vegeta to outlast Merged Zamasu without merging themselves. There's no story with Vegeta. At least by having Gokuu and Vegeta fight in tandem the story would be "Gokuu and Vegeta shed their Saiyan habits to defeat their most dangerous enemy."
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:16 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:16 pm
That just seems like how you chose to interpret that seen and statement and that doesnt make much sense given future events. If Black was already astoundingly stronger than Goku and Vegeta prior to the fusion, How in the world was Goku able to permanently mutilate Fused Zamasu when he has Blacks power multiplied over?
Because Fused Zamasu was just toying around, and this is something that Vegeta even says. Fused Zamasu could have easily defeated all of them, but since he was very arrogant he wasn't going all out. Also Goku damaged him only after literally breaking his own body trying to do so.
So like every typical villain he chose to play with his food until it was too late, they pulled the wool over his eyes and then he gets scared and panics and uses his final trump card, fusion. Which is all the same anyway because he still gets stronger anyway so it really doesn't matter. He knew he coudn't underestimate his foes so he put his absolute best foot forward and fused. Maybe that power up wasn't as large as he might've thought.
More like even if his power-up was large enough, he just couldn't afford to lose Future Zamasu again. We are talking about a methodical person who went to extreme lengths to ensure that his plan would succeed, and his immortal partner, who is vital to his victory, came very close to defeat, so again I can see why he would overreact and fuse, even if rationally he wasn't in such a desperate position like in the manga. And you can easily imagine what was going on in his head, because after Future Zamasu tells him that their ideals could easily disappear if they are careless, Black pauses for a moment then says that playtime was over. But again, did he really need to fuse? I mean, in the manga he did, because he himself was getting beaten by Vegeta. In the anime? Not really, I mean before Zamasu got trapped in the Mafuba Black was beating down both Saiyans without even lifting a finger himself.
Since when were Zenkais referred to anything other than a near death recovery power up? I've heard of Rage Boosts which is also a fan term and one could say that a few of those might have happened during the arc but zenkais? No way. Powering up and pushing past your limit (Vegeta) is not a zenkai, he was just releasing his absolute full power.
Call it "rage boost" then, it literally doesn't change anything.
JulieYBM wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:53 pm
I would prefer using Gokuu and Vegeta to outlast Merged Zamasu without merging themselves. There's no story with Vegeta. At least by having Gokuu and Vegeta fight in tandem the story would be "Gokuu and Vegeta shed their Saiyan habits to defeat their most dangerous enemy."
Is this not what happened when Vegeta decided to let go of his pride and merge with his rival for the greater good?
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:18 am

Merging just creates a separate character. Leaving them as two makes for more interesting combination plays and doesn't suddenly subject us to a new character with no horse in the race.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by ronaldnorth_03 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:16 pm

The last three episodes of this bow were disappointing. We could have an episode dedicated to the battle of Vegetto x Zamasu. Thus, the merging of the two Saiyans would win and later the villain would return just as we saw in the manga (hundreds of Zamasu).

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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:55 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:16 am
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:16 pm
That just seems like how you chose to interpret that seen and statement and that doesnt make much sense given future events. If Black was already astoundingly stronger than Goku and Vegeta prior to the fusion, How in the world was Goku able to permanently mutilate Fused Zamasu when he has Blacks power multiplied over?
Because Fused Zamasu was just toying around, and this is something that Vegeta even says. Fused Zamasu could have easily defeated all of them, but since he was very arrogant he wasn't going all out. Also Goku damaged him only after literally breaking his own body trying to do so.
Thats stupid, so you merge to stop playing around only to play around again anyway despite being shown that you shouldnt under estimate your opponents? Zamasu was clearly trying during both his beam clash with Vegeta&Trunks and Especially Goku, he added more power to it twice and Goku Still over powered him regardless of how hard he had to push himself, he permanently mauled his face.

More like even if his power-up was large enough, he just couldn't afford to lose Future Zamasu again. We are talking about a methodical person who went to extreme lengths to ensure that his plan would succeed, and his immortal partner, who is vital to his victory, came very close to defeat, so again I can see why he would overreact and fuse, even if rationally he wasn't in such a desperate position like in the manga. And you can easily imagine what was going on in his head, because after Future Zamasu tells him that their ideals could easily disappear if they are careless, Black pauses for a moment then says that playtime was over. But again, did he really need to fuse? I mean, in the manga he did, because he himself was getting beaten by Vegeta. In the anime? Not really, I mean before Zamasu got trapped in the Mafuba Black was beating down both Saiyans without even lifting a finger himself.
Regardless of how "Well thought Out" his plan might've been in hindsight, at the end of the day his back was against the wall, he was nervous, He'd literally have no reason to worry if he could truly beat his opponents without even raising a finger. every other villain in the serious put their best foot forward when they were being overwhelmed or pressured.

-Vegeta went Oozaru when he lost the beam struggle.
-Freeza detonated Namek when being beat up by Goku.
-Cell detonated himself after being beat up by Gohan.
-Boo absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo after being pressured by Gohan. Later Boo got Gohan himself after having his back against the wall when Gotenks defused inside him.

Dont forget, Goku and Vegeta are also "Fighting Geniuses" I'm sure they would've found a way out of that illusion thing. Which again Black himself wasnt entirely sure how it worked.
Since when were Zenkais referred to anything other than a near death recovery power up? I've heard of Rage Boosts which is also a fan term and one could say that a few of those might have happened during the arc but zenkais? No way. Powering up and pushing past your limit (Vegeta) is not a zenkai, he was just releasing his absolute full power.
Call it "rage boost" then, it literally doesn't change anything
.

Well Black only got one once, which caused the Ki Scythe, but it again.. It just reassures that the he was getting Zenkais when he shoudnt have been, which was dumb. By the way the only "Rage Boost" that could've occurred during the tournament was anything done by Cabba or Kale, everyone else was just pushing themselves through their sheer will not to lose, which isn't an anger induced power up or a recovery from near death power up.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:14 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:16 pm
Thats stupid, so you merge to stop playing around only to play around again anyway despite being shown that you shouldnt under estimate your opponents? Zamasu was clearly trying during both his beam clash with Vegeta&Trunks and Especially Goku, he added more power to it twice and Goku Still over powered him regardless of how hard he had to push himself, he permanently mauled his face.
When they fused their main weakness was eliminated. They became one, so they could no longer be singled out and picked off, like we saw with Future Zamasu and the Mafuba. At that point they were no longer in danger. Also, since Zamasu was already very arrogant and vain, when the two of them merged their arrogance was increased to the maximum.

I did not say he was not trying during those beam struggles, I said he was not trying before that, and this is something that it is explicitely stated in the show.
Regardless of how "Well thought Out" his plan might've been in hindsight, at the end of the day his back was against the wall, he was nervous, He'd literally have no reason to worry if he could truly beat his opponents without even raising a finger. every other villain in the serious put their best foot forward when they were being overwhelmed or pressured.
How was HE the one with the back against the wall when he was literally overwhelming Goku and Vegeta without even having to raise a finger himself? He was worrying about Future Zamasu, not himself. Having an immortal partner was an integral part of his plan and he was not willing to take any chances by losing him.
Dont forget, Goku and Vegeta are also "Fighting Geniuses" I'm sure they would've found a way out of that illusion thing. Which again Black himself wasnt entirely sure how it worked.
There is no reason to believe this was possible. They were not given any moment of rest, they were constantly getting attacked by Black's clones, who were not only considerably strong but were also able to regenerate. They only got out of that situation when Black teleported away and the rift closed.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:17 pm

Toei and Toyotaro can be guilty of badly executing concepts, or throwing in their own material which can actively detract from the story. But let's look at this fairly, some of the issues with Dragon Ball Super's storytelling ultimately stem from the fact that Toei and Toyotaro don't have much to work with, and what they do have to work with isn't that great to begin with.

You can perhaps provide some cohesion from plot point A to plot point B, but when you have the major story beat of Zeno wiping out Future Trunks timeline, or the character beat of Jiren being hung up on the most cliche backstory you can think of, it's less of case of turning chicken shit into chicken salad and more of a case of trying your hardest in vain to polish a turd. It's the same deal with Toriyama deciding to have 80 people fight in one contained area, or writing that Goku has never kissed Chi Chi, or the entire existence of Monaka.

Honestly, I think someone needs to have balls tell Toriyama, "No. This sounds stupid." Or, "We need more than that to work with." Of course Toei and Toyotaro have the responsibility of putting in their best effort of bridging the gap from one story/character beat to the next, but Toriyama also has the responsibility of giving those guys a good foundation to work off of.

In general, the lacklustre storytelling and character writing for Super ultimately stems from some of Toriyama's original cliff notes as well as Toei and Toyotaro dropping the ball at times when it come to translating Toriyama's idea into a visual medium or wanting provide their own original content to flesh out the story.

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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:56 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:14 pm
I did not say he was not trying during those beam struggles, I said he was not trying before that, and this is something that it is explicitly stated in the show.
So if he was trying and still got over powered.. what does that mean?

My whole issue with the Anime version of this arc is that it goes out of its way to try to make Zamasu a credible threat and does a lot of things absolutely wrong because it. The manga while not flawless at all still seems to have more of clearer idea on what to go for, keeping Zamasu a threat but keeping things in line enough with the original Manga to the point where its at least tolerable.

The Boo arc suffers from somewhat of a similar problem, a quarter way through the arc Toriyama decided he wanted Dragon Ball to be the Goku story again yet throughout that story he put Gotenks and Gohan in situations to where they ended up stronger than him, so he had to ass pull a form for Boo that was still a major threat but Goku was able to fight himself which is why when discussing the Boo arc it seems like such a jumbled mess sometimes. Still love it though and Pure Boo is my favorite Boo form but that's besides the point.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by ronaldnorth_03 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:47 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:56 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:14 pm
I did not say he was not trying during those beam struggles, I said he was not trying before that, and this is something that it is explicitly stated in the show.
So if he was trying and still got over powered.. what does that mean?

My whole issue with the Anime version of this arc is that it goes out of its way to try to make Zamasu a credible threat and does a lot of things absolutely wrong because it. The manga while not flawless at all still seems to have more of clearer idea on what to go for, keeping Zamasu a threat but keeping things in line enough with the original Manga to the point where its at least tolerable.

The Boo arc suffers from somewhat of a similar problem, a quarter way through the arc Toriyama decided he wanted Dragon Ball to be the Goku story again yet throughout that story he put Gotenks and Gohan in situations to where they ended up stronger than him, so he had to ass pull a form for Boo that was still a major threat but Goku was able to fight himself which is why when discussing the Boo arc it seems like such a jumbled mess sometimes. Still love it though and Pure Boo is my favorite Boo form but that's besides the point.
About anime doing wrong things with Zamasu, what do you mean?

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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:05 pm

I agree with SupremeKai25 that the climactic battle with Zamasu was super rushed. I think it could've greatly benefitted if it was two episodes, or even make it a one-hour special, like they did with the first Goku vs Jiren fight. However, people saying Trunks didn't deserve to get the kill on Zamasu, that's where I beg to differ. The arc's literal name is The Future Trunks Arc. It's all about him. He's supposed to be the star of this arc. When you have a hero's name, not named Goku or Vegeta, as the title of an arc, that's when you should expect him/her to get some sort of victory over the main villain. That's why I personally loved the Genki-Sword scene, as big of an asspull it was and how rushed it was, and why I absolutely hated the fucking Zeno ending. Because it quite literally destroyed the entire meaning of the arc, Trunks saving his future. Again, the Genki-Sword came out of nowhere and it was rushed as all hell and logically doesn't make sense, but if it was the thing that ultimately killed Zamasu for good, then thematically, it would've made sense. Not Zamasu becoming Infinite, resulting in Goku pressing the Zeno button and Future Zeno erasing the future timeline. So, what's so bad about the hero that an arc is named after getting the win over the villain in that exact arc?
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:34 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:56 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:14 pm
I did not say he was not trying during those beam struggles, I said he was not trying before that, and this is something that it is explicitly stated in the show.
So if he was trying and still got over powered.. what does that mean?

My whole issue with the Anime version of this arc is that it goes out of its way to try to make Zamasu a credible threat and does a lot of things absolutely wrong because it. The manga while not flawless at all still seems to have more of clearer idea on what to go for, keeping Zamasu a threat but keeping things in line enough with the original Manga to the point where its at least tolerable.

The Boo arc suffers from somewhat of a similar problem, a quarter way through the arc Toriyama decided he wanted Dragon Ball to be the Goku story again yet throughout that story he put Gotenks and Gohan in situations to where they ended up stronger than him, so he had to ass pull a form for Boo that was still a major threat but Goku was able to fight himself which is why when discussing the Boo arc it seems like such a jumbled mess sometimes. Still love it though and Pure Boo is my favorite Boo form but that's besides the point.
I find it hilarious how Fused Zamasu, the final villain of the arc, shouldn't be a credible threat. That's why I much prefer the anime. I don't care if it is less logical, because it's time to realize that a story should also have some pay-off, not always try to do things in a logical way to the point that the climax and the tension go completely out of the window. If I waited 20 epidoes for these two villains to fuse and their fusion was weak as shit, then I would be very disappointed. Thankfully Toriyama woke up and realized this.

Also just because someone gets overpowered during a beam struggle doesn't mean they are weaker. In the beam struggle with Trunks and Vegeta he wasn't expecting the two Saiyans to muster that much strength, but he was still stronger, so much so that 5 seconds later he oneshot Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, while during his beam struggle with Goku he had half his face blown up not just because of Goku's Kamehameha but also because his own attack exploded right in his face.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:59 am

Trunks didn't train with Shin and Kibito, so he has no healing power.
Him having a healing powers was pretty good idea but it make SSJB look like a complete weakling since Trunks could easily heal SSJB Goku/Vegeta completely without any experience while Kibitokai couldn't heal SSJ4 Goku since he was too powerful. And i don't think healing powers have any connection to battle power.
Vegeta does not become Super Saiyan God in the manga.
Him becoming SSJG in manga was much better than completely skipping it in anime until Broly movie.
Goku and Vegeta in Super Saiyan Blue would be enough to face Merged Zamasu. That way we would not have Vegetto.
That would be much better as Vegito Blue turned out to be a joke also completely nerfing any potara fusion benefits over fusion dance, especially since both were recently stated to be equal in power, but Gogeta still remains for much longer.
Toppo was a candidate for God of Destruction, but would not gain a transformation.
His transformation was awful and completely ruined any "justice" this character was supposed to represent
Ribrianne wouldn't have her first form, just the fat version. Incidentally, the '' power of love '' was not described by him.
Her fat form is supposed to be her real form according to manga and i like it a lot better.
Kale was created by Toei Animation because she wanted a character similar to Broly.
Kale is the worst garbage DBS ever introduced (at least in anime). I wish she was never a thing.
Jiren's origin was the author's idea, because he wanted the character to be silent.
Him having short origin didn't help him becoming interesting character anyway. He is still generic muscle man with no personality. No difference.
Toei Animation has set the 'Justice' background for Jiren and Toppo, turning them into justice soldiers.
Except that they didn't represent justice at all. They turned out to be assholes who couldn't respect their opponents and tournament rules after they started to lose.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:48 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:34 am
I find it hilarious how Fused Zamasu, the final villain of the arc, shouldn't be a credible threat. That's why I much prefer the anime.
How was he not a threat in The Manga?

Zamasu's beam struggle with Vegeta&Trunks leaves him with a singed hand, he takes Vegeta out, loses to Goku by himself and gets so frustrated that he has to strike himself with his own energy in hopes of gaining more power.. You see how inconsistent that is? That boost he got from his own lighting strike was apparently so large that he was able to trade blows with Vegetto? Do you not see an issue with that? I mean if that works for you great, for me it doesn't which is why I prefer the manga, things play out more naturally there.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:04 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:48 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:34 am
I find it hilarious how Fused Zamasu, the final villain of the arc, shouldn't be a credible threat. That's why I much prefer the anime.
How was he not a threat in The Manga?

Zamasu's beam struggle with Vegeta&Trunks leaves him with a singed hand, he takes Vegeta out, loses to Goku by himself and gets so frustrated that he has to strike himself with his own energy in hopes of gaining more power.. You see how inconsistent that is? That boost he got from his own lighting strike was apparently so large that he was able to trade blows with Vegetto? Do you not see an issue with that? I mean if that works for you great, for me it doesn't which is why I prefer the manga, things play out more naturally there.
No. The manga version does not even come close to the anime one. In the manga Fused Zamasu was stomped by Vegito and Goku alone could fight evenly with him. In the anime Fused Zamasu after empowering himself was able to give a very good fight to Vegito for a time and could only be defeated by a group effort from all the Saiyans. Even Infinite Zamasu is on a completely different level. In the manga he's a glorified Metal Cooler, in the anime he's a literal eldritch cosmic horror.

Yes, I have criticized the inconsistent power scaling in that episode in the past, though I understand the reasons for the things that happened and always try to rationalize them. Nonetheless I don't care if it is somewhat illogical because it makes for good entertainment. This is what some people forget. In their desire to have a perfectly logical and well-written story, they forget that things aren't just supposed to make sense in a story, they're also supposed to be fun to watch, and the manga version of that battle didn't captivate me nearly as much as the anime one.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:01 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:04 pm
No. The manga version does not even come close to the anime one.
You didnt answer my question though. How was he NOT a threat in the Manga? Are you implying that Goku didnt have to use the Zeno button just because Zamasu didnt try to become the air?

Look, there are moments in even the original manga where logic sorta goes out the window but even then its done in ways that don't overly contradict what the universe has built up to that point. I dont see how you can have fun watching something when there's little effort on trying to keep things consistent even within its self let alone the series proper, especially when theres supposed to be a story being told. This is Dragon Ball a now on going story about Goku and his quest for self improvement not Happy Tree Friends where anything can happen on any episode and it doesnt matter.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:15 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:01 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:04 pm
No. The manga version does not even come close to the anime one.
You didnt answer my question though. How was he NOT a threat in the Manga? Are you implying that Goku didnt have to use the Zeno button just because Zamasu didnt try to become the air?

Look, there are moments in even the original manga where logic sorta goes out the window but even then its done in ways that don't overly contradict what the universe has built up to that point. I dont see how you can have fun watching something when there's little effort on trying to keep things consistent even within its self let alone the series proper, especially when theres supposed to be a story being told. This is Dragon Ball a now on going story about Goku and his quest for self improvement not Happy Tree Friends where anything can happen on any episode and it doesnt matter.
He was not a threat because Vegito could have easily stomped him into the ground and annihilated him, but he decided to dick around because he is Vegito, so obviously he has to be an arrogant asshole. He was not a threat because for some reason he had a time limit, so all these people had to do was wait for him to defuse then get back to stomping Black, and there was no sense of urgency because not only was Fused Zamasu not strong enough to just kill them like in the anime, but they could just use Trunks' healing powers to last longer. Also I didn't even say he was not a threat, I just said he was not as much of a threat as in the anime.

Also please, spare me the "manga is more consistent than anime" argument, because the manga of that arc had a lot of shitty moments, from Zamasu not being an official Supreme Kai even though he could use the Time Ring, to Goku using the Hakai without any indication whatsoever that he was learning it.

Finally, I find the highlighted part hilarious, because if you think the anime reaction to the future multiverse being erased was lackluster, then I'm happy to tell you that the manga had NO REACTION AT ALL to that. At least in the anime Trunks was sad and crying for a while, in the manga all that I remember is that the following day he was smiling and stuff and wearing a shirt with the word "tacos" written on it. Both the anime and manga relied on asspulls and lacked consistency in the final part of that arc, and both the anime and manga handled the ending badly. That's not what this thread is about though, so let's avoid an anime vs. manga debate.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:26 pm

The thread is gonna be about the anime vs the manga regardless simply because the question being asked is if Super as a whole would've benefited more from purely following Toriyama's ideas, both versions of the story picked and chose different things to follow and not follow, thus leads us to decide which representations we prefer and why and if it followed Toriyama's original ideas would it have benefited more or less. Obviously You and I hold opposing views, specifically on the Zamasu Arc.

I dont think Zamasu in either of his incarnations are all that captivating but I do feel like he was represented properly in the manga based on what he is and how he moves like a gifted amateur.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:52 pm

I will say that both mediums remained consistent on the part that Fused Zamasu's greatest strength was his immortality, like Toriyama said in his original draft. In the manga this is obvious, because his immortality is what kept him going despite Vegito's overwhelming strength. In the anime this is also somewhat true, because even if Fused Zamasu was much stronger than his manga counterpart, ultimately he too ended up being in a fragile situation against Vegito, and his immortality, albeit flawed, is what allowed him to remain in the fight for that long after he bulked up. So both mediums didn't really differ too much from Toriyama's original draft that Fused Zamasu's greatest asset in the fight was his immortality and not his overwhelming strength (which was overwhelming in the anime, but only until Vegito turned the tables on him).
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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