In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

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In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by Rory » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:37 pm

Just something I've been thinking about recently, nothing I'm about to type out will be news to anyone, but I just sorta wanted a space to throw my thoughts out, and see how you feel about it in a post 30th Anniversary Blu Ray world! :)

I remember the NA release of the Dragon Box being a real triumph on here, and we were all pretty much satisfied, now that the series had finally seen its 'perfect' release. If you'd have told me that something better could be coming just around the corner, or even that this release was BAD for the franchise, I likely wouldn't have believed it, but at this point I really do wonder if the Dragon Box release was for the best. Yes, I'm aware that the blame here lies with FUNimation, they released the Level Sets too soon after the DBox release, saturating the market, if you have a Kanzenshuu account, you know that already. You know why they aren't good as a company, I know this isn't somehow an inanimate object's fault. Let's try to remove "FUNi is dumb don't blame the best release of the series!" from this discussion, if we can.

That all being said. Do you think that Dragon Ball on home video would be in a better state had the Dragon Box not been released? It felt like such a dream release at the time, however had they not been released, chances are all the fans who purchased the D-Boxes would've bought the Level Sets, I assume (though obviously can't say for sure) that this would've likely lead to their completion. This could've had all sorts of ramifications! A successful run of the Level Sets could've swayed FUNi into treating Dragon Ball to the same procedure, then maybe GT! But even without that, there'd likely be no cropped DNR'd release of the series (post orange bricks), we'd have Z in all its preserved glory as the go-to release, it'd be affordable, and it'd be one more thing the community could agree on and be happy with.

Thoughts? Do you think we'd be in a better position without the D-Boxes? Can you think of other knock-of effects a successful Level Set release would bring to the series?

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by eledoremassis02 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:43 pm

Definatly an interesting point. People were sore about the episode count per voulme (an already outdated packing by the time the level sets came out) and the set still lacked japanese title cards and NEP.

As I type this, I feel it woulda helped a bit. But i feel the dbox fans would habe split (some buying the levels while some importing the dbox/dbox singles to get what the level sets lacked. The listing price (i belive) was $34.98 and even if they sold for around 20 it'd be between 300-over 600 dollars to get all of Z.

I feel majority of the falconer/causual/toonami nostalgia fans would of just been happy with the orange bricks as i remeber quite a few people online complaining about the grain. I also feel funi might have started dnring down the line rehardless in an attempt to apease these fans. Ofcourse this is all speculation.

I bet we woulda got season blurays after this set was completed cause they gotta milk it lol

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:05 pm

I feel like this thread topic is circular/backwards logic and over-thinking oneself into an ouroboros-like knot of confused pretzel logic.

Setting aside what is essentially (in the grander scheme of things) audio/videophile nitpicking about the colors and the audio - and I know this comment is going to send pedantic audio & videophiles here into conniptions, so I'm just gonna say to them right up front here: I'm not denying the presence of the issues with the Dragon Boxes' colors and audio quality, I'm simply saying that people have over the years over-fixated on them under a microscope so much and for so long that they've been blown up WAY ludicrously out of proportions relative to what they ultimately really are at the end of the day - the Dragon Boxes still remain the single best, most definitive release of the series we have currently available in some capacity or other.

Certainly at least if your main concern is just the original anime series in its original state (completely junking to the wayside all Faulconer/Toonami nostalgia baggage, which if you're someone in the year 2019 who's still carrying a torch faithfully for that stuff, then there's just no helping you at this point), then nothing else available even remotely compares here.

Given that, until a further attempt at a legitimate remaster somehow comes along (and that seems far less likely at this point) the Dragon Boxes seems likely to be as good as we're gonna realistically get for the foreseeable future. So given that that's the current cold-hard reality of things: it makes less than ZERO sense for someone to wish that it received NO U.S. release whatsoever.

As it stands, we didn't even get ALL of the Dragon Boxes released here: only those for the Z TV series, and only for a limited period of time. But as limited as that is, better that than nothing at all. Otherwise with no Dragon Boxes, all our other remaining options would be basically releases that all across the board were and remain far, FAR vastly inferior by comparison.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by ABED » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:03 am

I doubt oversaturation of the market was as responsible for the failure of the level sets as many on here believe. The most likely culprits are low number of episodes per release, the price point, the health (or lack thereof) of the home video market, and most importantly, the cost of production.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:45 am

I stand by that it's at this point still the best release from FUNimation which wasn't done by them personally, and looking through the threads here from now just over a decade ago (Holy crap, it's been ten years already!!!) the announcement by FUNi of licensing the Dragon Box masters for release here was an out of nowhere surprise, and this happening just all of two months after the last Orange Brick had come out. I mean, given the controversy and backlash over the season sets' problems they clearly intended it as a way to appeal to the latter fans who were burned by how terrible that had turned out. Heck, there was even speculation the Orange Bricks were basically an almost money/fundraising sort of thing so they could get the Dragon Box masters licensed from Toei. In any case i am personally glad that they came out mostly for a complete 4:3 run of DBZ in better quality than pretty much everything else that FUNi had done themselves up to that point, and even though they've made a fair amount of mistakes over the years this is definitely one of the notable bright spots in the 20+ years of having the franchise license. Though i personally wasn't able to get them until much later it's been quite a journey to now own almost the entire series in the currently best available form, barring an actual good HD Level-esque release which i just don't see coming at this point.

True, they do have their flaws i admit. But when you stop and take a look at pretty much everything else FUNi's put out release wise (Level sets aside) it can be said that the Dragon Boxes still have a leg up especially over the three DNR smear fest, piece of crap releases they've pumped pumped out in the last twelve years. I'd also say the same about the unaltered pre Special Edition versions of the original Star Wars trilogy included with the bonus discs of the 2006 Limited Edition sets, in that though they are indeed not perfect due to being sourced from 13 now 26 year old THX mastered non anamorphic letterbox 16:9 Laserdisc transfers, it's the best available at this point in time until Lucasfilm/Disney goes ahead with restoring them for HD release. In lieu of that which is likely a long way off, those are still my preferred way of watching the films in their pre-1997 forms flawed though they may be.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by coola » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:50 am

Question is, how many "hardcore fans" bought DBoxes? How much of difference would it make if they all bought LS? Because i don't think it would make difference for "casuals", Orange Bricks were just released and they sold like hot cakes, there was also Kai who was sold as way to watch DBZ on TV with HD, so i doubt they would pay more money for release that have less epiosdes and take more space on shelf.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by Danfun64 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:29 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:05 pm
...at least if your main concern is just the original anime series in its original state (completely junking to the wayside all Faulconer/Toonami nostalgia baggage, which if you're someone in the year 2019 who's still carrying a torch faithfully for that stuff, then there's just no helping you at this point), then nothing else available even remotely compares [to the Dragon Boxes].
Kunzait, much of the stuff you write is amazing, but there are times where I disagree with you... and this is one of them. The way I see it, there are (at least) fourth audiences in play (specifically with Z). I wouldn't be surprised if this list is sorted by a descending number of people. The first is the casuals who don't really notice the cropping or that the default dub option is a Frankenstein with partial redubbing and a music score it was never meant to be paired with. These are served by the Orange Bricks, the Season Blu-rays, and the various legal streaming options. The second is the audience that wants the original Japanese language show in as authentic a form as possible with good video quality, perhaps flat out ignoring the dub. These were served by the sadly out of print Dragon Box Z sets. The third is whoever Funi thought would buy the 30th Anniversary collection exactly as it was presented. The fourth wants the Funi dub, warts and all, with good quality. Ignoring the Rock the Dragon collection (which itself is in some ways inferior to the Pioneer and especially Madman releases of old), this group hasn't been served since the singles. Instead, we have the aforementioned Frankenstein with mismatched voices, wrong audio takes, and missing voice filters.

Is the Funi dub shit? Absolutely! Is it worth seeing over the original Japanese or a dub of sufficiently high quality? Certainly not. Is it worth preserving? I think so. Even counting the singles, there has never been a release that had all the recaps and NEPs. Not to mention some of the narration Dale Kelly did for the so-called "Cell Games" saga being redubbed by Kyle Herbert even with the singles, and *cringe* Vic Mignogna's performance as Burter in the UUC dub never seeing the light of day after the original broadcasts due to the cancellation of the UUC singles range and the Orange Bricks replacing him with Brice Armstrong.

If nothing else, the original broadcast Funi Z dub, in all its forms (uncut, edited as seen on Toonami, edited as seen on YTV, even including how that one Australian network preserved the eyecatches... including some unique ones at the very beginning of the dub) should be fully preserved as a historical artifact, showing how far Funi has changed (and, in some cases, how far Funi has stayed the same). The Funi singles, Madman singles, Funi edited VHS tapes, and the Ultimate Uncut singles will get you most of the way, but you'll still miss most of the NEPs, some of the recaps, and a large chunk of the Ultimate Uncut dub. Saban Z got lucky that the Madman releases were so comprehensive, and what wasn't included there was included in the Rock the Dragon Collection. Can't say the same for the (third iteration, counting the dubs of DB Movies 2 and 3, of the) dub that, like it or not, spawned a core cast that still dubs the show to this day...
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:53 am

Actually, it was Chris Sabat who re dubbed Burter (Butta) in the 2007 OB partial redub over Vic's version with more or less using his then recent Vegeta voice only slightly different. When it comes to the groups you mention there i fall in the second camp with having nearly all of the Dragon Boxes, and given that Kai has become more or less my definitive way of watching the show in English via the FUNi cast and is all around better than the OG Z dub in pretty much every aspect as a whole.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:53 am

Danfun64 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:29 am
Is the Funi dub shit? Absolutely! Is it worth seeing over the original Japanese or a dub of sufficiently high quality? Certainly not. Is it worth preserving? I think so.
And this right here is the crux of where we disagree. I 1000% agree with your answers to the first two questions there, and have the total diametric opposite answer to your third. Because the FUNi dub is garbage, it deserves no such respectful release and instead deserves to be thrown into the wastebasket of obscurity and be forgotten. Saying that "it deserves a respectful release" is to me almost no different than saying that something like the old G.I. Joe or Masters of the Universe cartoons deserve Criterion releases.

Counterpoint: no it doesn't in any way deserve or warrant either a respectful release, or any shred of respect in a general sense, or to be remembered as anything other than an absolute embarrassment, a stain on the Dragon Ball name, something that never should have existed in the first place, and a product solely of corporate nepotism.

Danfun64 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:29 am
Even counting the singles, there has never been a release that had all the recaps and NEPs. Not to mention some of the narration Dale Kelly did for the so-called "Cell Games" saga being redubbed by Kyle Herbert even with the singles, and *cringe* Vic Mignogna's performance as Burter in the UUC dub never seeing the light of day after the original broadcasts due to the cancellation of the UUC singles range and the Orange Bricks replacing him with Brice Armstrong.
Counterpoint: who gives a flying fuck about ANY of those people or their shitty performances? They're all just terrible actors across the board (and not even terrible in an endearing or charming way, like actors in a schlocky B movie: just abrasive and irritating), and speaking for myself on this point, I for one have frankly always resented that I had to become in any which way familiar with and know who ANY of those people are in the first place as an incidental byproduct of being a Dragon Ball fan (particularly that much more so with Vic Mignogna now, in light of his whole recent clusterfuck).

Speaking personally here as a fan of the original series since 1992: I shouldn't have EVER had to become familiar with a single one of those fucking people, and every ounce of my knowledge about the dub actors that I've accrued by sheer fandom osmosis is brain space that I desperately wish I could wipe them completely away from and dedicate instead to something more genuinely worthwhile and productive.

And to the fans who actually DO care about these performances and view them as something worth chronicling, remembering, and examining, my only advice to them is: get a better hobby. Seek out VASTLY better and more worthwhile endeavors to spend your time and mental energy on within the realm of anime (and film & TV as a broader whole). Cause this fucking putrid garbage? This ain't it.

You're wasting OODLES too much time and brainpower on absolute dogshit that is NOT AT ALL worth it, and could be putting all that effort and attention instead to INFINITELY better use just within the realm of anime alone, much less broader forms of art and media.

Danfun64 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:29 am
If nothing else, the original broadcast Funi Z dub, in all its forms (uncut, edited as seen on Toonami, edited as seen on YTV, even including how that one Australian network preserved the eyecatches... including some unique ones at the very beginning of the dub) should be fully preserved as a historical artifact, showing how far Funi has changed (and, in some cases, how far Funi has stayed the same).
Counterpoint: no they DON'T need to be preserved, because they're all a gigantic waste of fucking time. Full-stop.

As far as the Dragon Ball anime goes, the ONLY version that matters in the remote slightest here is the original Japanese broadcasts. The rest of the English dubs are almost across the board embarrassing apocrypha that other than spreading basic awareness of the series in Western territories, have otherwise done nothing but damage to DB's image in those regions as well as forever irrevocably splintering and fracturing the fanbase to the point of complete dysfunction. Western Dragon Ball fandom as a whole has LONG needed to learn to let the fuck go of these versions, ALL of them, and stop giving them so much undue, underserved, and unwaranted levels of exposure, attention, focus, and general importance.

And also counterpoint: FUNi HASN'T actually come all THAT "far" in their handling of Dragon Ball within grand scheme of things. Most of their big strides in "improvement" have basically just been exercises in polishing and spit-shining what is still ultimately the same exact turd at the end of the day. Chronicling and tracing their non-trajectory from "complete shit" to "slightly, vaguely less shit, but still shit" is without question an exercise in total pointless futility. You'd literally be better spending your time doing virtually ANYTHING else instead.

And by the way, the same goes for almost ALL of those other TV-edit dubs: not just for Dragon Ball even, but for children's anime AS A WHOLE.

All of this sentiment that I'm expressing here with regards to Dragon Ball and FUNimation and the level of absurd focus on examining and comparing their dubs: every bit of it goes just as strongly for the ENTIRE community of folks in broader Western anime fandom - which sadly has been a depressingly LARGE amount of it for WAY too long now - who put most all of their focus and emphasis on analyzing and obsessing over dogshit dubs of anime that in the vast majority of cases usually tend to be garbage anime themselves (like virtually ANYTHING handled by companies like 4Kids): you guys are simply pissing away FAR too much time, energy, and mental real estate on a subject that is in NO WAY deserving or warranting of them in the absolute slightest.

Anime fandom as a whole in fact would benefit TREMENDOUSLY from fans as a broader swath spending VASTLY less time and brainpower hyper-analyzing and comparing crappy TV-edit dubs of largely crappy children's anime, and instead diverting all that focus and attention onto actual quality titles that DON'T have any of this dumbfuck baggage associated with them, that aren't artistically and creatively bankrupt to their core, and are genuinely historically, creatively, and artistically important or significant to anime as a medium.

Basically there needs to be FAR less obsessing over the minutia of what kind of dubbing mishaps befell awful merchandising junk like Yu Gi Oh and Pokemon and the like, and INFINITELY MORE actual interest and effort spent analyzing and promoting works of genuine artistic craft and historical significance to the medium of Japanese animation, like the works of Rintaro or Isao Takahata or Satoshi Kon, or countless other examples.

This whole fandom culture fixation on fans palpably drowning virtually ALL of their time, energy, and mental real estate in almost solely the comparing and analysis of which sub-Z level voice actor voiced which dumbass character in which dub of some shit like Bakugan or Beyblade or Sonic X and how THIS shitty performance was MILDLY LESS shitty than this OTHER shitty performance within THIS shitty anime who's sole existence is to sell plastic junk to kids...

...this is the EXACT kind of mind and soul-deadening crap that has long been the sputtering death rattle of worthwhile anime discourse within broader Western anime fandom, and functions as a large chunk of the reason for why legitimately worthwhile and creatively/historically significant anime titles (which tend to be aimed at actual adults more times than not in the overwhelming majority of cases) tend to get absolutely buried in obscurity compared to some of the most trite and corporate merch-shilling nonsense trash which have been functioning as the "banner, marquee titles" for anime fandom as a whole for like, most of the past 15+ years now.

Not only is all this "dub comparisons" for all these shitty anime such a gigantic waste of time and energy in and of themselves, its also a gigantic waste of some of the most brightest and thoughtful minds out there in fandom, folks with some incredible capacity for critical insight for whom we'd all be MUCH better served seeing them examining and analyzing the rich subtext and craft in genuinely dense works like Kanashimi no Belladonna or Robot Carnival, as opposed to seeing them constantly whiling away years/decades worth of their critical-thinking & writing talents hyper-nitpicking the "merits" (or lack thereof) in whichever terrible dub of whichever vapid sludge that once aired on Kids WB 10 or 20 years ago.

I'm not saying that there's NO such critical writing/analysis of such genuinely important and worthwhile works going on within anime fandom: there absolutely is and has been of course, but they've all unquestionably taken a MASSIVE backseat in visibility and importance compared to the throngs and throngs more foregrounding attention and focus given to all this other meaningless swill. And it really should be the EXACT reverse.

Its been to the point for YEARS, more than a decade and a half now, where there are still SO many anime fans today for whom shit like "which hatchet-job dub of which X or Y 4Kids-esque anime TV series was better or worse and how they compared to X or Y hatchet job dub of X or Y 4Kids-esque anime TV series" has been literally the ENTIRETY of their conception of what anime is as a medium, and what critical discourse about anime encompasses as a whole, and have absolutely NO CLUE whatsoever that there exists ANY more to anime beyond that type of stuff.

If you've been an anime fan for longer than a decade, and 90% or more of your time and focus within the fanbase has all been spent grinding away at categorizing and archiving vapid, godawful TV-edit dubs of vapid, godawful children's merchandising anime & manga, and you have literally NEVER heard of who guys like Mamoru Oshii or Kazuo Koike are or have never heard of titles like Barefoot Gen, Labyrinth Tales, or Onward Towards Our Noble Deaths... then you are EXACTLY within the problem that I'm talking about here, and this is EXACTLY the fucking core problem with base-level fandom discourse on anime at a baseline level of creative and historical comprehension within the broader Western/English-speaking fanbase today, and really for the large majority of the 2000s and 2010s.

Its gotten a BIT better in this past decade thanks to more exposure for some of this stuff on certain social media platforms and streaming services: but its still WAY too lopsided and still a significant problem with broader critical engagement and understanding of the medium. The priorities of much of the broader fanbase are still EXACTLY backwards in a great majority of cases and are not to mention horribly stunted in and stuck on their Toonami/kids' TV-level focus on anime, as if that kind of material functions as the sum total entirety of all that there is to it.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:54 am

Danfun64 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:29 am

If nothing else, the original broadcast Funi Z dub, in all its forms (uncut, edited as seen on Toonami, edited as seen on YTV, even including how that one Australian network preserved the eyecatches... including some unique ones at the very beginning of the dub) should be fully preserved as a historical artifact, showing how far Funi has changed (and, in some cases, how far Funi has stayed the same). The Funi singles, Madman singles, Funi edited VHS tapes, and the Ultimate Uncut singles will get you most of the way, but you'll still miss most of the NEPs, some of the recaps, and a large chunk of the Ultimate Uncut dub. Saban Z got lucky that the Madman releases were so comprehensive, and what wasn't included there was included in the Rock the Dragon Collection. Can't say the same for the (third iteration, counting the dubs of DB Movies 2 and 3, of the) dub that, like it or not, spawned a core cast that still dubs the show to this day...
I just don’t think “Look at how far Funimation has come” is a good excuse to preserve all that. If anything, Funimation’s problem is not being motivated enough to really fix things. There is no good excuse for DB movie 2’s dub to not be redubbed to at least vaguely resemble a product made by professionals and not drunk college friends in someone’s mom’s basement. and it’s still part of a boxset for people to buy!

Setting aside the can of worms with the remastering process of the orange bricks and focusing on the “redubbing” the one and only improvement that was really made was Funimation finally pairing the dub audio with the Kikuchi score (something they should have done at the beginning) otherwise it’s really just the same dub that was released on home video from 1999-2003 Sabat . Some re-recorded dialog for consistency with the 2005 in-house redub of the first 67 episodes really didn’t amount to much as its still 99 percent of the same cringe dialog and a lot of the re-recording gets abandoned far earlier than it should.

And I can understand releasing the shitty Funi in house dub with Ceyli as Dende and Dale Kelly as the narrator and Ginyu and the Funi cast awkwardly pretending they’re still the Ocean cast and the Falcouner music blaring loudly and obnoxiously as possible. I can even understand releasing the Westwood dub.

Not for any historical preservation mind you but people have the right to spend their disposable income on whatever useless shit they want and if hearing Dale Kelly say “Krillin in da house” makes someone warm and fuzzy far be it from me to tell you not to enjoy something.

But I am at a total loss on why the edited for Toonami dub needs an official release? It’s just the home video dub with the butts and baby dicks and too bloody for Toonami moments and some mild swears removed.

Watch Funimation awkwardly cut around Freeza impaling Krillin is an amusing foot note but I don’t think anyone’s missing out not seeing Funimation trying to avoid showing them something.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:13 pm

I definitely agree with the part of your long winded post that the OG in house DBZ dub is a bottom of the barrel, low rung load of garbage that should just go away. It's an outdated and obsolete relic from FUNi's early years when they were a much smaller company with not much money or recognition compared to now, even the later 2007 partial redub did little to improve what was already an awful production. Now that said, i'd personally argue for the Kai dub in that it's actually something much closer to what the series should be. Is it a perfect dub, no it's not. But still i can watch it and not want to puke or face palm unlike the former same as with the old Pioneer produced dubs of Z movies 1-3, mostly because i have no deep seated nostalgia or love for the '99-'03 version even having watched it on Toonami as a little kid. True, that was my main exposure to the series then but unlike some i am not blind to the multitude of problems including the terrible over the top jokes and replacement score. The fact that the Dragon Boxes are the version of the series releases i own shows where i stand here, and the former two are thus rendered useless to me with that in mind.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:21 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:54 am
Danfun64 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:29 am

If nothing else, the original broadcast Funi Z dub, in all its forms (uncut, edited as seen on Toonami, edited as seen on YTV, even including how that one Australian network preserved the eyecatches... including some unique ones at the very beginning of the dub) should be fully preserved as a historical artifact, showing how far Funi has changed (and, in some cases, how far Funi has stayed the same). The Funi singles, Madman singles, Funi edited VHS tapes, and the Ultimate Uncut singles will get you most of the way, but you'll still miss most of the NEPs, some of the recaps, and a large chunk of the Ultimate Uncut dub. Saban Z got lucky that the Madman releases were so comprehensive, and what wasn't included there was included in the Rock the Dragon Collection. Can't say the same for the (third iteration, counting the dubs of DB Movies 2 and 3, of the) dub that, like it or not, spawned a core cast that still dubs the show to this day...
I just don’t think “Look at how far Funimation has come” is a good excuse to preserve all that. If anything, Funimation’s problem is not being motivated enough to really fix things. There is no good excuse for DB movie 2’s dub to not be redubbed to at least vaguely resemble a product made by professionals and not drunk college friends in someone’s mom’s basement. and it’s still part of a boxset for people to buy!

Setting aside the can of worms with the remastering process of the orange bricks and focusing on the “redubbing” the one and only improvement that was really made was Funimation finally pairing the dub audio with the Kikuchi score (something they should have done at the beginning) otherwise it’s really just the same dub that was released on home video from 1999-2003 Sabat . Some re-recorded dialog for consistency with the 2005 in-house redub of the first 67 episodes really didn’t amount to much as its still 99 percent of the same cringe dialog and a lot of the re-recording gets abandoned far earlier than it should.

And I can understand releasing the shitty Funi in house dub with Ceyli as Dende and Dale Kelly as the narrator and Ginyu and the Funi cast awkwardly pretending they’re still the Ocean cast and the Falcouner music blaring loudly and obnoxiously as possible. I can even understand releasing the Westwood dub.

Not for any historical preservation mind you but people have the right to spend their disposable income on whatever useless shit they want and if hearing Dale Kelly say “Krillin in da house” makes someone warm and fuzzy far be it from me to tell you not to enjoy something.

But I am at a total loss on why the edited for Toonami dub needs an official release? It’s just the home video dub with the butts and baby dicks and too bloody for Toonami moments and some mild swears removed.

Watch Funimation awkwardly cut around Freeza impaling Krillin is an amusing foot note but I don’t think anyone’s missing out not seeing Funimation trying to avoid showing them something.
Same here, at the end of the day it's still a highly inaccurate and awful interpretation/representation of the series from a time before FUNi really made an effort to stay truer to the source like their more recent dubs of the last decade.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:33 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:13 pm

I definitely agree with the part of your long winded post that the OG in house DBZ dub is a bottom of the barrel, low rung load of garbage that should just go away. It's an outdated and obsolete relic from FUNi's early years when they were a much smaller company with not much money or recognition compared to now
They were a smaller company without much money always seemed like an excuse for Funimation’s piss poor business practices. There was no reason for a budget company to waste money on a shitty replacement score or hire a punch up writer to “make the show funny” about the only thing “Funimation didn’t have much money” excused was low quality actors (actors that they’re mostly still using)

. Now that said, i'd personally argue for the Kai dub in that it's actually something much closer to what the series should be..
The problem with Kai will always be, through no fault of Funimation, that it is Kai. The questionable execution of proclaiming to be the Toriyama cut, the music issues, etc. There’s still issues on Funimation’s side (lol what is ki? Piccolo isn’t a demon haha he’s not. Legacy casting) but ultimately whatever good they did with Kai is undermined by being Kai.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:42 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:33 pm
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:13 pm

I definitely agree with the part of your long winded post that the OG in house DBZ dub is a bottom of the barrel, low rung load of garbage that should just go away. It's an outdated and obsolete relic from FUNi's early years when they were a much smaller company with not much money or recognition compared to now
They were a smaller company without much money always seemed like an excuse for Funimation’s piss poor business practices. There was no reason for a budget company to waste money on a shitty replacement score or hire a punch up writer to “make the show funny” about the only thing “Funimation didn’t have much money” excused was low quality actors (actors that they’re mostly still using)

. Now that said, i'd personally argue for the Kai dub in that it's actually something much closer to what the series should be..
The problem with Kai will always be, through no fault of Funimation, that it is Kai. The questionable execution of proclaiming to be the Toriyama cut, the music issues, etc. There’s still issues on Funimation’s side (lol what is ki? Piccolo isn’t a demon haha he’s not. Legacy casting) but ultimately whatever good they did with Kai is undermined by being Kai.
Yes the show no doubt has those issues i agree, but at least if nothing else it gave us a much better dubbed and scripted version i can watch which certainly cannot be said for the Z dub.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by Danfun64 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:44 pm

I wanted to post this a few hours earlier. Some parts have been spoilered to save space.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:53 am
Saying that "it deserves a respectful release" is to me almost no different than saying that something like the old G.I. Joe or Masters of the Universe cartoons deserve Criterion releases.
Not really? Respectful could simply mean putting the broadcast masters on DVD or SD Blu-ray without making any changes to them. I imagine those two series have that much. Are you saying that only bona fide masterpieces deserve good video and audio quality?
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:53 am
You're wasting OODLES too much time and brainpower on absolute dogshit that is NOT AT ALL worth it, and could be putting all that effort and attention instead to INFINITELY better use just within the realm of anime alone, much less broader forms of art and media.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:53 am
Basically there needs to be FAR less obsessing over the minutia of what kind of dubbing mishaps befell awful merchandising junk like Yu Gi Oh and Pokemon and the like, and INFINITELY MORE actual interest and effort spent analyzing and promoting works of genuine artistic craft and historical significance to the medium of Japanese animation, like the works of Rintaro or Isao Takahata or Satoshi Kon, or countless other examples.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:54 am
But I am at a total loss on why the edited for Toonami dub needs an official release? It’s just the home video dub with the butts and baby dicks and too bloody for Toonami moments and some mild swears removed.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:33 pm
The problem with Kai will always be, through no fault of Funimation, that it is Kai. The questionable execution of proclaiming to be the Toriyama cut, the music issues, etc. There’s still issues on Funimation’s side (lol what is ki? Piccolo isn’t a demon haha he’s not. Legacy casting) but ultimately whatever good they did with Kai is undermined by being Kai.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:03 pm

Danfun64 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:44 pm
nbut having them as the only option means that Funi is neglecting a market that might want that kind of thing. Surely it couldn't have been that small, seeing as Kai was a hit when it aired on Nicktoons and CW4Kids/Toonzai/Vortexx.[/spoiler]]

Okay, but no. Kai’s successful tv ratings on CW’s kids block doesn’t mean there is a market for an audience who demands Blue Popo and Breathing corpses and censorship that would make Saban go “Maybe you’re going to far” it just means boys in the 2-11 demo will watch a flashy action cartoon. It wasn’t successful because of the censorship.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by Danfun64 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:16 pm

With Saban/4Kids Kai, it's censorship is ridiculous and it's not the basis of anything (unlike how Latino and Brazil Kai use Nicktoons footage and Ocean Kai is said to use it). So yeah, there's very little reason to watch it over uncut Kai or even Nicktoons Kai. Either you're watching to mock it or the temporary Kikuchi placements intrigue you. Besides, it's an edited version of an edited version. Even if Funi did release edited DVDs back in the day, it would have only been Nicktoons Kai.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:07 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:54 am
But I am at a total loss on why the edited for Toonami dub needs an official release? It’s just the home video dub with the butts and baby dicks and too bloody for Toonami moments and some mild swears removed.
People have the "Think of the Children" mindsets to them where they feel like showing uncut episodes of Dragon Ball will harm them despite the show is rated TV-PG (The TV equivalent of PG rated movies). I think you can show your kids uncut episodes if you educated them about certain topics.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:22 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:53 am
<snip>
So is it really all about the value of time and brainpower at the core? That's interesting.

Do you really think that pieces of history should be completely forgotten? Almost as though they never existed? This is a bit concerning.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:38 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:22 pm
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:53 am
<snip>
So is it really all about the value of time and brainpower at the core? That's interesting.

Do you really think that pieces of history should be completely forgotten? Almost as though they never existed? This is a bit concerning.
Are we really going to regard a crappy dub as a piece of history?

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