In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by MetaMoss » Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:53 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:38 pm Are we really going to regard a crappy dub as a piece of history?
Absolutely. There's a difference between artistic merit and historical importance. Perhaps this is just my time lurking around the Lost Media community speaking, but I think we should err on the side of preserving what we've got. No matter how good or bad a piece of media is, we have no idea what value people in the future may gain from it. I say at least give them the option to have it.

In the case of the old Funi dub, it's at the bare minimum an artifact of a very different time for anime in the English-speaking world, where licensees and TV people thought there was a need to "Americanize" anime properties in order to have success in the US. History has thankfully proven them wrong, but that doesn't mean we should act like those crap localizations didn't happen.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:09 pm

MetaMoss wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:53 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:38 pm Are we really going to regard a crappy dub as a piece of history?
Absolutely. There's a difference between artistic merit and historical importance.
Correct. Funnily enough, Funimation’s old work on the Dragon Ball franchise is neither.

Perhaps this is just my time lurking around the Lost Media community speaking, but I think we should err on the side of preserving what we've got.
Coincidentally, there are out of print dvd that can be purchased through third party vendors like Amazon and people who have tape recordings from Toonami broadcast. This isn’t some lost to time thing like the maybe dub of Legend of Shen long by an airline or the first five episodes of the Harmony Gold dub. (Neither of which need an official release by the way)
No matter how good or bad a piece of media is, we have no idea what value people in the future may gain from it. I say at least give them the option to have it.
See above. If people want to watch the old dub buy the old dvd singles. If people want to imagine what its like to watch it on Toonami. Just close your eyes when you see a butt or penis.
In the case of the old Funi dub, it's at the bare minimum an artifact of a very different time for anime in the English-speaking world, where licensees and TV people thought there was a need to "Americanize" anime properties in order to have success in the US. History has thankfully proven them wrong, but that doesn't mean we should act like those crap localizations didn't happen.
Not releasing some edited version of a crappy dub is hardly ignoring history. What passes for historical significance on this thread is concerning.

If you want some historical proof of Americanized dubs for kids go get Digimon or Pokemon and enjoy your jelly doughnut.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:04 pm

So true, the 1999-2003 in house Z dub (uncut or edited) is an awful, inaccurate and heavily altered "reversioned" interpretation of the series in both script and dialogue that is not a good adaptation in any meaningful way toward the original version. Slightly less so but still far from is the '07 Orange Brick partial re dub that only sort of fixed some of the many problems while leaving most as they were, and quite frankly both are embarrassments which no amount of revising and polishing can make even remotely acceptable.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by Danfun64 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:22 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:09 pm
MetaMoss wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:53 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:38 pm Are we really going to regard a crappy dub as a piece of history?
Absolutely. There's a difference between artistic merit and historical importance.
Correct. Funnily enough, Funimation’s old work on the Dragon Ball franchise is neither.
Hah. If only that were true. Funimation's work on Dragon Ball has been highly influential across the globe. Ignoring GT Final Bout, the Funi cast is the only cast outside of the original Japanese to appear in the video games, making them well known even in nations with long-established dub casts. Funimation's dub scripts were used for many languages, including Latino Spanish (Kai, the trailers for the main dub of Super Broly, the Argentinian dub of Super Broly), Brazilian Portuguese (Kai 2.0, and to a lesser extent Kai 1.0), Portugal Portuguese (Super Broly... could be wrong of course, but why else is Funi's logo in the poster?), allegedly Catalan Kai 1.0 and Galician Kai 1.0, Vietnamese, Russian, Serbian (the new dub), and even French (that strange French Canadian dub of "World of Dragon Ball Z" and ep 124-125). At least parts of the English dub were subbed into Dutch and Finnish, and some other languages aired the Japanese audio but had translated dubtitles from Funi's work. Terms from Funi's dub have appeared in other dubs (for example, sometimes in Latino Spanish, Kienzan is "Disco Destructor").
MetaMoss wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:53 pm Perhaps this is just my time lurking around the Lost Media community speaking, but I think we should err on the side of preserving what we've got. No matter how good or bad a piece of media is, we have no idea what value people in the future may gain from it. I say at least give them the option to have it.
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:09 pm Coincidentally, there are out of print dvd that can be purchased through third party vendors like Amazon and people who have tape recordings from Toonami broadcast. This isn’t some lost to time thing like the maybe dub of Legend of Shen long by an airline or the first five episodes of the Harmony Gold dub. (Neither of which need an official release by the way)
What do you mean, "neither need an official release"? How else is anybody remotely interested in rare dubs going to find them at this point? I'm not saying that they should have completely separate releases, you're right in implying that nobody would buy them. If only Funi wasn't interested in pretending that other dubs never happened. Imagine if Funi put every English dub (within reason, as trying to sync Saban Z to the uncut footage would be ridiculous) as alternate audio tracks. Assuming that the aforementioned airline DB Movie 1 dub is uncut, there's no reason why it can't share space with more well-known material like the original Japanese, the 2010 Funi dub, and the 2000s Big Green dub. Likewise, it would be cool if Funi put the Filipino English dub of the Z series as an alternate audio option along with the Japanese, original Funi, and remastered Funi dubs. Look at how Discotek handled Lupin III Mystery of Mano. They went out of their way to gather all four English dubs. If Funi treated DB like that... or at minimum put all the alternate dubs on FuniNow so that the few who'd go out of their way to watch them could see them again, it would be one piece to the puzzle of the ideal release (the other pieces, of course, include a true HD image instead of the DNR'd crap of the 30th Anniversary collection and the Broadcast Audio (or, where applicable, the Big Box audio... as well as the Laserdisc and Dragon Box audio of the classic movies).
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:09 pm Not releasing some edited version of a crappy dub is hardly ignoring history. What passes for historical significance on this thread is concerning.

If you want some historical proof of Americanized dubs for kids go get Digimon or Pokemon and enjoy your jelly doughnut.
Even if dubs like the airline DB Movie 1 dub aren't historically significant, they should be preserved anyway.
As for Pokemon... I find it weird that one of the most famous animes of all time has no Japanese with subs option. Not helping matters is that the original Japanese of the show never had a complete release, discouraging even fansubs from forming. Say what you will about the show's quality, but it deserves better.
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:04 pm the 1999-2003 in house Z dub (uncut or edited) is an awful, inaccurate and heavily altered "reversioned" interpretation of the series in both script and dialogue that is not a good adaptation in any meaningful way toward the original version. Slightly less so but still far from is the '07 Orange Brick partial re dub that only sort of fixed some of the many problems while leaving most as they were, and quite frankly both are embarrassments which no amount of revising and polishing can make even remotely acceptable.
The remastered partial re dub is the very definition of polishing a turd... while drunk. What exactly did Funi think they were accomplishing by redubbing (AFAIK) no more than half of the actors... and mainly for the third season. Meanwhile intended voice filters weren't included, and sometimes alternate takes were used... which sometimes didn't even make sense in context. It's basically trying to seem more professional than it really is especially if played with the Kikuchi score.

Also, it's "hilarious" that they found Season 3 so embarrassing they gave it a half-assed redub, but they left the dubs of DB Movies 2 and 3 almost completely alone. Funi should have redubbed those to movies to be consistent with their 2010 DB Movie 1 dub.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:30 pm

Definitely agree especially with the last one, seeing as once the Kai dub came out i haven't looked back since as far as DBZ in English from FUNimation's cast goes. It's really the only way i can legit watch it because the aformentioned two previous dub versions are most definitely not even close. As for OG Z, it's subbed in Japanese on the Dragon Boxes all the way for me.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by TVfan721 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:27 pm

Danfun64 wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:22 pm
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:04 pm the 1999-2003 in house Z dub (uncut or edited) is an awful, inaccurate and heavily altered "reversioned" interpretation of the series in both script and dialogue that is not a good adaptation in any meaningful way toward the original version. Slightly less so but still far from is the '07 Orange Brick partial re dub that only sort of fixed some of the many problems while leaving most as they were, and quite frankly both are embarrassments which no amount of revising and polishing can make even remotely acceptable.
The remastered partial re dub is the very definition of polishing a turd... while drunk. What exactly did Funi think they were accomplishing by redubbing (AFAIK) no more than half of the actors... and mainly for the third season. Meanwhile intended voice filters weren't included, and sometimes alternate takes were used... which sometimes didn't even make sense in context. It's basically trying to seem more professional than it really is especially if played with the Kikuchi score.

Also, it's "hilarious" that they found Season 3 so embarrassing they gave it a half-assed redub, but they left the dubs of DB Movies 2 and 3 almost completely alone. Funi should have redubbed those to movies to be consistent with their 2010 DB Movie 1 dub.
I find the "half-assed redub" as you call it, to greatly improve Season 3 for the remastered set. They took the worst VA performance by far, Vegeta, and gave him a complete redub for the whole season, greatly improving the character. Frieza's redub for his first form was a big step up as was Krillin's full redub. A lot of the worst lines were removed and changed to something more fitting as well. Yeah, there's still bad stuff in there but it's a big step up overall and I'm grateful they did it. They didn't have to do anything. They could've just released Season 3 with the 1999 dub intact and it probably would've had no impact on sales but they still put the effort in to fix a lot of the bad shit. Yeah, Goku should've been redubbed as well for consistency sake but Sean's performance in 1999 was the least of that dub's problems and he was one of the best of a bad bunch. The remastered Season 3 dub with the Japanese music behind it, is passable and listenable.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:34 pm

TVfan721 wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:27 pm
I find the "half-assed redub" as you call it, to greatly improve Season 3 for the remastered set.
It greatly improves season 3 provided you’re listening to the Kikuchi version where at least you don’t have a crap score being blasted over terrible performers saying terrible dialog. Otherwise it’s not that different from what was presented in 1999
They took the worst VA performance by far, Vegeta, and gave him a complete redub for the whole season, greatly improving the character
For consistency with how Vegeta sounded in the then newly dubbed first 67. Not because they realized how bad Sabat’s performance was. The fact that his equally terrible Piccolo was left alone speaks volumes.
. Frieza's redub for his first form was a big step up .
M
Not really. He just went from sounding like dollar store version of Ocean dub Frieza to sounding like Rita Repulsa getting plastered.
A lot of the worst lines were removed and changed to something more fitting as well.
Lmao no they weren’t. 98 percent of the dialog is exactly the same. Including the majority of unfunny jokes and awkward rewrites.

They didn't have to do anything
I agree and the product shows they really shouldn’t have bothered.

but they still put the effort in to fix a lot of the bad shit.
Effort is a strong word here.

Yeah, Goku should've been redubbed as well for consistency sake but Sean's performance in 1999 was the least of that dub's problems and he was one of the best of a bad bunch.
No he was awful. The fact that he’s being being contrasted by marginally improved performances makes it even worse.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by TVfan721 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:00 am

Arrogant and obnoxious posts such as yours is why our community gets such a bad rep. Good grief. There's nothing wrong whatsoever with disliking a particular item within the fandom but at least carry yourself with a bit of class and respect when you express your opinion.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:50 am

TVfan721 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:00 am Arrogant and obnoxious posts such as yours is why our community gets such a bad rep. Good grief. There's nothing wrong whatsoever with disliking a particular item within the fandom but at least carry yourself with a bit of class and respect when you express your opinion.
He's talking about the production value of a children's cartoon show. From 20 years ago. And an incredibly cheap, shoddy, and rinky dink amateur-hour level of production value for such by ANY sensible standards. This isn't exactly Hitchcock's Rear Window or Vertigo that we're critiquing here.

Honestly, the level of pompous self-importance that many of you folks project onto this garbage nonsense dub (and plenty of other garbage nonsense dubs of its ilk) is straight up comically delusional. You're literally getting yourself bound up into a monocle-adjusting "How DARE you good sir!" lather over someone sensibly calling THIS fucking trash right here as being the absolute fucking trash that it is. Seriously: take a step back here a moment and realize that THIS is what you're getting yourself offended over someone else calling a piece of shit.

Over-inflating the level of "improvement" that FUNimation expended on partly redubbing little bits and pieces of this clusterfuck for the Orange Bricks - while in reality changing almost NOTHING about it - and getting outraged that anyone would dare point out the obvious and total lack of effort involved for what it is, is 100% just straight up sad. Unless you work for FUNimation and get a paycheck from them, you're basically just some random dude on the internet (same as myself, Masenko, or anyone else here) stanning for a miserably pathetic, embarrassingly cheapskate production from decades ago that's aged about as well as year-old snack foods bought from a dollar store.

Actually no, that's not a fair analogy: saying that this has aged poorly would imply that it was ever even remotely acceptable even back when it first aired on TV or came out on home video, much less today because they... redubbed a couple of voices to sound largely the same (or similar enough) and reciting mostly the same exact godawful lines as before.

People have every right to call this production dogshit because that's what it clearly and demonstrably is. And you getting all "Well I never! Have you no decency!" about it doesn't exactly have the shaming effect that you're intending for it to have.

FUNimation are owed basically NOTHING from anyone here, and about the only credit I give them at this point is solely limited to 1) hiring Steve Simmons to do the subtitle translations, 2) releasing the Dragon Boxes (for as limited a time as that was), and 3) giving all their other releases, at a baremost minimum, a language option for the original version.

All, and I do mean ALL the rest, never should have happened, and they've done nothing except prove themselves undeserving and disrespectful of this license (and their own audience) time and time and time and time again, year after years, decade after decade, even WELL long after they made tremendous stacks of cash off of this property and could easily afford to do vastly better going forward (like junking and replacing the nobodies they hired, in some cases literally, off the streets with real, credible actors). That their audience is made up of folks who continually lap this crap up and act like its gourmet is just embarrassing and does little but further enable their "unique take" on this material.

Every last stitch of officially licensed English language Dragon Ball has been absolute and unmitigated crap (by even the most charitable of quality standards) from pretty much the word go up through to today: and all the hemming and hawing about "But what about when they vaguely, marginally improved THIS tiny little detail right here!" as if that's somehow this giant leap forward has been at worst a sad display of Stockholm syndrome from the fanbase, and at best basically giving them a participation trophy for taking something 100% straight up unwatchable and cringe and making it, at best, maybe 30% closer to almost-tolerable, but still fairly cringe.

Danfun64 wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:44 pmIf every dub around the world was accurate, or if the show was never dubbed at all but only produced subbed accurately, sure it would mean significantly less division in the fandom, but it would also be more boring.
I couldn't POSSIBLY disagree more with this. Dragon Ball has both a rich enough tapestry of fascinating (and diverse) creative influences as well as a dense enough array of actual content unto itself that there is almost NEVER any shortage of genuinely worthwhile things to discuss about it. And no, that in NO WAY includes "power scaling" or "strength debate" shit.

The absence of dub comparisons would in NO WAY make the the fandom "more boring". It would rather make the fanbse:

A) More unified

B) Less mired in ridiculous disinformation (often that flies directly in the face of bare-most plot/character basics as well as the core, underlying main premise of the series) that needs to be constantly clarified and pushed back against every other second of every other day

And C) More concise and focused around genuinely more productive and insightful analysis of the actual core series itself

There's also a VERY good case to be made (which I've made myself numerous times before) that an accurately done and properly handled dub from the getgo would've MASSIVELY cut down on the level of "Power Level debates" that have dominated the fanbase: further freeing us up to actually talking about genuinely more interesting and worthwhile topics.

Basically, what you see as a "more boring" fanbase without all the dub comparison shit, I see as "vastly less dumbed down and less bogged down in brain-meltingly stupid nonsense".

Danfun64 wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:44 pmDub comparisons wouldn't even be a thing as differences would mostly be related to localization.
Exactly. That's precisely the way it SHOULD be. Period. The end. No bullshit.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:36 am

It just goes to show you Toriyama did something amazing that even in such an altered and cheep state, DBZ still became a success in the US.

I know this will sound condescending, but if you have a fondness for the old dub, please admit it is a shoddy product. Most people here love schlock of some kind. There's no shame in it, just please call a spade a spade.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by TVfan721 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:11 am

Take a deep breath Kunzait and calm down man.
Kunzait_83 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:50 amHe's talking about the production value of a children's cartoon show. From 20 years ago. And an incredibly cheap, shoddy, and rinky dink amateur-hour level of production value for such by ANY sensible standards. This isn't exactly Hitchcock's Rear Window or Vertigo that we're critiquing here.

Honestly, the level of pompous self-importance that many of you folks project onto this garbage nonsense dub (and plenty of other garbage nonsense dubs of its ilk) is straight up comically delusional. You're literally getting yourself bound up into a monocle-adjusting "How DARE you good sir!" lather over someone sensibly calling THIS fucking trash right here as being the absolute fucking trash that it is. Seriously: take a step back here a moment and realize that THIS is what you're getting yourself offended over someone else calling a piece of shit.

Over-inflating the level of "improvement" that FUNimation expended on partly redubbing little bits and pieces of this clusterfuck for the Orange Bricks - while in reality changing almost NOTHING about it - and getting outraged that anyone would dare point out the obvious and total lack of effort involved for what it is, is 100% just straight up sad. Unless you work for FUNimation and get a paycheck from them, you're basically just some random dude on the internet (same as myself, Masenko, or anyone else here) stanning for a miserably pathetic, embarrassingly cheapskate production from decades ago that's aged about as well as year-old snack foods bought from a dollar store.
Nowhere did I say that the 1999 dub was a good thing, ever. I've always been critical of Funimation's dub and it's something I've never even watched all the way through. I'm a Japanese fan, first and foremost so I don't know why you're getting so emotional and jumping to these conclusions.

Yes, I find the Season 3 english dub on the remastered sets with the Japanese music and the re-dubbed parts to be passable. I don't know what to tell you otherwise. It's not great by any means or even very good but overall, I find it to be vastly improved compared to the original September 1999 version with the awful Faluconer music, the extra shitty VA work, and the worst of the worst lines like "This will be easier than coloring inside the lines". Obviously, you don't agree and we will have to agree to disagree. But I don't get how I'm "stanning" anything by saying that.

You mention DBZ is a children's cartoon show, of course it is, so the question is, why are you getting this worked up over a children's cartoon show? Yeah, Funimation should've presented a stronger and more accurate product from the get go and then we wouldn't have all these people in the community praising dubs. There would just be one version worldwide and the only difference between each country is the localization. I agree with that. Guess what though dude, that didn't happen. It sucks but you can't go back in time. I wish we could, I'd love to go back and stop people like Barry Watson and Bruce Falcouner from ever getting their hands on this property but we can't. It sounds like something that you need to let go of and stop getting worked up over. There's anger in your post that I don't think should be there still in 2019. That shitty Funimation dub has it's fans, I'm not one of them, but it has it's fans and that's fine by me because I don't care what other people like or dislike, it has no impact on me.

And I want to clarify something, I genuinely respect you dude. You've been a part of this community longer than I am and I usually enjoy reading your content. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from at least if you don't agree with me. Cheers!

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:46 am

TVfan721 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:11 amTake a deep breath Kunzait and calm down man.

...

so I don't know why you're getting so emotional and jumping to these conclusions.

...

You mention DBZ is a children's cartoon show, of course it is, so the question is, why are you getting this worked up over a children's cartoon show?
At what point did I indicate that I was "getting emotional" or "worked up" over this? Because my posts are meaty on text? Because I bold a lot for emphasis?

Fact of the matter is, I sent that post while chilling and having breakfast. I was listening to music, catching up on the news, and eating an omelette. At NO point did I get anywhere even within the faintest zipcode of "emotional" when writing that. I think I can name... maybe two or three instances, at the very most, in ALL my years on this forum (going all the way back to my join date there) where something got heated to the point where I got genuinely emotional to even a VAGUE degree.

This is just how I write. I'm thorough, I'm verbose, and I'm emphatic: but that in no way translates to "emotional". Certainly not how I am IRL when I'm typing all this, where 99% of the time that I write stuff on here I'm just kicking back doing other shit.

When I'm ACTUALLY heated or emotional about something, trust me: it'll quickly become readily apparent when that is.

What I was taking issue with on your end wasn't your tone (I RARELY ever comment on people's tone on here, except for in the most extreme of circumstances) but rather the substance of what you were saying to Masenko. To wit:

TVfan721 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:11 amBut I don't get how I'm "stanning" anything by saying that.
This is what I was responding to with that comment:
TVfan721 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:00 amArrogant and obnoxious posts such as yours is why our community gets such a bad rep. Good grief. There's nothing wrong whatsoever with disliking a particular item within the fandom but at least carry yourself with a bit of class and respect when you express your opinion.
There was NOTHING objectionable about the way that Masenko expressed his viewpoint. You tagged him as "arrogant and obnoxious", when all he did was disagree with you point by point. He was sarcastic and snarky about it, yes: but the sarcasm was very clearly directed squarely at the dub itself. At NO point did he make it personal towards you or imply that you were somehow stupid or lesser-than for your viewpoint. All of his points where on the substance of the topic, and you went and took it into the realm of the personal when there was NOTHING he said that even remotely warranted it.

I'm only passingly familiar with you and your posts: the most I know about you is that you post a lot regarding some of the older Dub vs Sub comparison websites from the late 90s (DBZ Uncensored and the like). That being said, most of the time when a person takes a simple disagreement regarding the quality of the dub or sub and escalates it into personal insults, its usually when the person in question takes personal offense to the other person disparaging a work that they've personally invested or projected too much of themselves into. That's why I characterized your hyper-defensiveness for the dub against Masenko as "stanning": because you were the one who made it personal first (over a ridiculous topic), and it was totally uncalled for.

Obviously now you've clarified that you're NOT that deeply invested in the dub: which only makes the viscerally worded reaction you had towards Masenko's post that much more puzzling to me.

Either way though: someone vociferously disagreeing with a point you're making, even if their tone is that of sarcasm... that's NOT a reason to call them out personally. If the sarcasm were directed at you personally in a condescending way, that'd be one thing. But Masenko's sarcasm and disdain was CLEARLY directed at just the dub (for obvious reasons). Calling him out as "arrogant and obnoxious" as well as indicating that he's in any way indicative of what's wrong with this fanbase, simply for saying that even in the "improved version" the dub still sucks ass (which yes, I'm also with him in that it certainly does)... that's an absurd over-reaction. Over nothing.

TVfan721 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:11 amYeah, Funimation should've presented a stronger and more accurate product from the get go and then we wouldn't have all these people in the community praising dubs. There would just be one version worldwide and the only difference between each country is the localization. I agree with that. Guess what though dude, that didn't happen. It sucks but you can't go back in time. It sounds like something that you need to let go of and stop getting worked up enough to post massive, emotional rants such as this.
Those parts of my post weren't in response to or had anything to do with what you or Masenko were talking about: I was directly responding to Danfun, who had raised those specific points towards me earlier in the thread before you and Masenko had gotten into it. Obviously none of this is even remotely any kind of shit that I'm somehow lying awake at night obsessing over: I only posted a response regarding the topic because I was directly addressed by someone (who wasn't you) about that very subject here in this thread.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:41 pm

It's been literally 20 years and you people are still bitching about the dub like Funimation stole your lunch money and bullied you in grade school. Honestly, it's really old seeing the same complaining. We get it. The dub is inaccurate. Like jesus christ Kunzait, this is exactly why people think you're a complete asshole.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:16 pm

TVfan721 wrote: Yes, I find the Season 3 english dub on the remastered sets with the Japanese music and the re-dubbed parts to be passable.
And just to be clear I do agree with you that restoring the Japanese music did go a long way in making the dub more listenable. It’s still really bad but the power of Kikuchi ALONE prevents it from the total ear rape the 1999 dub was . My disagreement was that other than that there isn’t a whole lot changed. Vegeta sounds like Vegeta circa 2004 (until he doesn’t) , Freeza sounds like Rita Repulsa, Krillin sounds like Krillin and Nadolny’s Gohan is her Kid Goku voice she used for the ultimate uncut dub for like 13 episodes of the “redub” before reverting back to her chainsmoker voice. And some minor lines were revised like “coloring inside the lines” and “whopper of a lizard” but the redub still has

1. Schemmel’s 1999 Goku who was awkwardly acted, attempting, I assume, to mimic Peter Kelamis acting inflections but sounding like a bad live action hong kong dub. And all of Goku’s “We should talk it out instead of fight!” “Eat your vegetables!” dialog is left intact.

2. Sabat only re-records Vegeta. His Piccolo and Ywmcha are the same as 1999 and his dime store Scott Mcneil Piccolo was just as bad as his dime store Brian Drummond Vegeta. And Piccolo got hit with some of the worst attempts at humor and its all still there

3. Most of the cringe dialog is still intact. You still get almost all of Freeza’s cringe jokes and come ons. Bulma talking about her bad hair day. Piccolo making jokes about charging Nail rent blabbity blah blah


It’s pretty much the same dub from 1999 with the proper music restored and some of the actors sounding like they did in 2005 instead of 1999

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by TVfan721 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:25 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:46 amThere was NOTHING objectionable about the way that Masenko expressed his viewpoint. You tagged him as "arrogant and obnoxious", when all he did was disagree with you point by point. He was sarcastic and snarky about it, yes: but the sarcasm was very clearly directed squarely at the dub itself. At NO point did he make it personal towards you or imply that you were somehow stupid or lesser-than for your viewpoint. All of his points where on the substance of the topic, and you went and took it into the realm of the personal when there was NOTHING he said that even remotely warranted it.

I'm only passingly familiar with you and your posts: the most I know about you is that you post a lot regarding some of the older Dub vs Sub comparison websites from the late 90s (DBZ Uncensored and the like). That being said, most of the time when a person takes a simple disagreement regarding the quality of the dub or sub and escalates it into personal insults, its usually when the person in question takes personal offense to the other person disparaging a work that they've personally invested or projected too much of themselves into. That's why I characterized your hyper-defensiveness for the dub against Masenko as "stanning": because you were the one who made it personal first (over a ridiculous topic), and it was totally uncalled for.

Obviously now you've clarified that you're NOT that deeply invested in the dub: which only makes the viscerally worded reaction you had towards Masenko's post that much more puzzling to me.

Either way though: someone vociferously disagreeing with a point you're making, even if their tone is that of sarcasm... that's NOT a reason to call them out personally. If the sarcasm were directed at you personally in a condescending way, that'd be one thing. But Masenko's sarcasm and disdain was CLEARLY directed at just the dub (for obvious reasons). Calling him out as "arrogant and obnoxious" as well as indicating that he's in any way indicative of what's wrong with this fanbase, simply for saying that even in the "improved version" the dub still sucks ass (which yes, I'm also with him in that it certainly does)... that's an absurd over-reaction. Over nothing.
I'm going to use Chris Psaros and DBZ Uncensored as the example for my argument in this post. Psaros made great points and ultimately, he was right about pretty much everything he argued but he was such an asshole about it and conducted himself in such a unlikeable, rude, over-the-top manner, that he ended up doing more harm than good and made our community look worse instead of better. I truly believe that if sites such as DBZ Uncensored and DBZOA had carried themselves and their opinions with more respect, maturity, and professionalism, a lot more would've been accomplished. Tone always matters. It doesn't just matter if you're right, how you present your opinion and/or facts matters as well.

You can hate something and think it's dogshit as much as you want. You're free to feel however you want but I believe those opinions should always be presented in a mature, professional manner.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:28 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:16 pm
TVfan721 wrote: Yes, I find the Season 3 english dub on the remastered sets with the Japanese music and the re-dubbed parts to be passable.
And just to be clear I do agree with you that restoring the Japanese music did go a long way in making the dub more listenable. It’s still really bad but the power of Kikuchi ALONE prevents it from the total ear rape the 1999 dub was . My disagreement was that other than that there isn’t a whole lot changed. Vegeta sounds like Vegeta circa 2004 (until he doesn’t) , Freeza sounds like Rita Repulsa, Krillin sounds like Krillin and Nadolny’s Gohan is her Kid Goku voice she used for the ultimate uncut dub for like 13 episodes of the “redub” before reverting back to her chainsmoker voice. And some minor lines were revised like “coloring inside the lines” and “whopper of a lizard” but the redub still has

1. Schemmel’s 1999 Goku who was awkwardly acting attempting, I assume, to mimic Peter Kelamis acting inflections but sounding like a bad live action hong kong dub. And all of Goku’s “We should talk it out instead of fight!” “Eat your vegetables!” dialog is left intact.

2. Sabat only re-records Vegeta. His Piccolo and Ywmcha are the same as 1999 and his dime store Scott Lcneil Piccolo was just as bad as his dime store Brian Drummond Vegeta. And Piccolo got hit with some of the worst attempts at humor and its all still there

3. Most of the cringe dialog is still intact. You still get almost all of Freeza’s cringe jokes and come ons. Bulma talking about her bad hair day. Piccolo making jokes about charging Nail rent blabbity blah blah


It’s pretty much the same dub from 1999 with the proper music restored and some of the actors sounding like they did in 2005 instead of 1999
No doubt there, because while those changes in the partial re dub did make the Freeza episodes' dubs in particular less bad to a degree than the original 1999 run it's still far from being even a remotely acceptable take. They removed some of the worst lines but still kept other god awful ones such as "POP GOES THE WEASEL!!!!!" and "That's right boys, Mondo Cool", and not to mention the characters who really needed re dubbing as you mention (Piccolo, Goku.etc) went unchanged from how they were back then. Basically, for the small number of things changed the majority was left as is and it really doesn't make the dub that much better compared to their first run through with the episodes. I'm really glad Kai's dub even with it's flaws exists as an alternative because i just cannot bring myself to watch either the original in house dub or Orange Brick redubbing because they are still highly inaccurate and pretty poorly acted productions even with the later revisions.

I will say though, the dub indeed at least a little more tolerable on the Kikuchi music version unlike the wall to wall assault on the ears that Team Faulconer's score was in the '99 dub.
Last edited by SuperSaiyaManZ94 on Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4 (Done)

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by TVfan721 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:58 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:16 pm
TVfan721 wrote: Yes, I find the Season 3 english dub on the remastered sets with the Japanese music and the re-dubbed parts to be passable.
And just to be clear I do agree with you that restoring the Japanese music did go a long way in making the dub more listenable. It’s still really bad but the power of Kikuchi ALONE prevents it from the total ear rape the 1999 dub was . My disagreement was that other than that there isn’t a whole lot changed. Vegeta sounds like Vegeta circa 2004 (until he doesn’t) , Freeza sounds like Rita Repulsa, Krillin sounds like Krillin and Nadolny’s Gohan is her Kid Goku voice she used for the ultimate uncut dub for like 13 episodes of the “redub” before reverting back to her chainsmoker voice. And some minor lines were revised like “coloring inside the lines” and “whopper of a lizard” but the redub still has

1. Schemmel’s 1999 Goku who was awkwardly acted, attempting, I assume, to mimic Peter Kelamis acting inflections but sounding like a bad live action hong kong dub. And all of Goku’s “We should talk it out instead of fight!” “Eat your vegetables!” dialog is left intact.

2. Sabat only re-records Vegeta. His Piccolo and Ywmcha are the same as 1999 and his dime store Scott Mcneil Piccolo was just as bad as his dime store Brian Drummond Vegeta. And Piccolo got hit with some of the worst attempts at humor and its all still there

3. Most of the cringe dialog is still intact. You still get almost all of Freeza’s cringe jokes and come ons. Bulma talking about her bad hair day. Piccolo making jokes about charging Nail rent blabbity blah blah


It’s pretty much the same dub from 1999 with the proper music restored and some of the actors sounding like they did in 2005 instead of 1999
We simply have a difference of opinion on this and will have to agree to disagree. For me, the worst parts were fixed. Vegeta and Krillin's VA work was by far the worst of all the performances in that 1999 dub. Vegeta sounded truly awful and Sabat trying to do that Drummond impersonation was unlistenable. The redub voice is music to my ears. Same with Krillin. Krillin sounded exactly like Uncle Jimbo from South Park, I literally couldn't help but think of Jimbo whenever that voice played. The redub of Krillin is a huge improvement and with it, they've fixed the two worst voice performances in my view. I was never that bothered with Piccolo or Goku, yeah they're both weak performances as was every performance in the dub but they were the least of the dub's issues.

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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:02 pm

TVfan721 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:58 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:16 pm
TVfan721 wrote: Yes, I find the Season 3 english dub on the remastered sets with the Japanese music and the re-dubbed parts to be passable.
And just to be clear I do agree with you that restoring the Japanese music did go a long way in making the dub more listenable. It’s still really bad but the power of Kikuchi ALONE prevents it from the total ear rape the 1999 dub was . My disagreement was that other than that there isn’t a whole lot changed. Vegeta sounds like Vegeta circa 2004 (until he doesn’t) , Freeza sounds like Rita Repulsa, Krillin sounds like Krillin and Nadolny’s Gohan is her Kid Goku voice she used for the ultimate uncut dub for like 13 episodes of the “redub” before reverting back to her chainsmoker voice. And some minor lines were revised like “coloring inside the lines” and “whopper of a lizard” but the redub still has

1. Schemmel’s 1999 Goku who was awkwardly acted, attempting, I assume, to mimic Peter Kelamis acting inflections but sounding like a bad live action hong kong dub. And all of Goku’s “We should talk it out instead of fight!” “Eat your vegetables!” dialog is left intact.

2. Sabat only re-records Vegeta. His Piccolo and Ywmcha are the same as 1999 and his dime store Scott Mcneil Piccolo was just as bad as his dime store Brian Drummond Vegeta. And Piccolo got hit with some of the worst attempts at humor and its all still there

3. Most of the cringe dialog is still intact. You still get almost all of Freeza’s cringe jokes and come ons. Bulma talking about her bad hair day. Piccolo making jokes about charging Nail rent blabbity blah blah


It’s pretty much the same dub from 1999 with the proper music restored and some of the actors sounding like they did in 2005 instead of 1999
We simply have a difference of opinion on this and will have to agree to disagree. For me, the worst parts were fixed. Vegeta and Krillin's VA work was by far the worst of all the performances in that 1999 dub. Vegeta sounded truly awful and Sabat trying to do that Drummond impersonation was unlistenable. The redub voice is music to my ears. Same with Krillin. Krillin sounded exactly like Uncle Jimbo from South Park, I literally couldn't help but think of Jimbo whenever that voice played. The redub of Krillin is a huge improvement and with it, they've fixed the two worst voice performances in my view. I was never that bothered with Piccolo or Goku, yeah they're both weak performances as was every performance in the dub but they were the least of the dub's issues.
I mean, there are times when i'll occasionally watch the dub on my Dragon Boxes while mostly i watch them subbed but not very often seeing as i have Kai to fill that area but at the very least they made it a little more bearable than the '99 dub with the Faulconer score was.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by MetaMoss » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:07 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:36 am It just goes to show you Toriyama did something amazing that even in such an altered and cheep state, DBZ still became a success in the US.
This. So much this. Funimation's changes couldn't hide what made DBZ truly special. The dub doesn't have the fandom it does because the changes somehow made DBZ more to their taste or what-have-you, it's because it was a lot of people's introduction to Dragon Ball Z, and DBZ is just that good.
ABED wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:36 am I know this will sound condescending, but if you have a fondness for the old dub, please admit it is a shoddy product. Most people here love schlock of some kind. There's no shame in it, just please call a spade a spade.
I think it's less condescending and more you're preaching to the choir, at least on this forum.
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Re: In retrospect, was the (US) Dragon Box a 'monkey paw' release?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:35 pm

TVfan721 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:25 pmI'm going to use Chris Psaros and DBZ Uncensored as the example for my argument in this post. Psaros made great points and ultimately, he was right about pretty much everything he argued but he was such an asshole about it and conducted himself in such a unlikeable, rude, over-the-top manner, that he ended up doing more harm than good and made our community look worse instead of better. I truly believe that if sites such as DBZ Uncensored and DBZOA had carried themselves and their opinions with more respect, maturity, and professionalism, a lot more would've been accomplished. Tone always matters. It doesn't just matter if you're right, how you present your opinion and/or facts matters as well.

You can hate something and think it's dogshit as much as you want. You're free to feel however you want but I believe those opinions should always be presented in a mature, professional manner.
Chris Psaros hasn't been a relevant factor in this fanbase for nearly 20 years now (unlike the dub, sadly). I'm going to take a page from Dbzfan94 here now when I say: he and his site were forever and ever ago. They're long gone now. Let it go.

And while I haven't looked at DBZ Uncensored in god only knows how many eons upon eons, I certainly don't remember a great deal of anything particularly "objectionable" that he ever wrote about on there (apart from his general association with the community over on Mr. Popo's Palace, who tended to post some pretty gross and awful shit of an almost proto-4chan esque nature). And I say that both in terms of tone as well as substance.

As to the rest of your take on "tone vs substance": I have almost the DIAMETRIC opposite view as you do. Substance matters INFINITELY MORE than tone. By gargantuan orders of magnitude. In comparison to substance, tone is very nearly meaningless.

A person saying some of the most detestable, horrendous shit imaginable in the most "polite and professional" manner doesn't make what they're saying even REMOTELY less horrible, corrosive, or damaging: I'm thinking particularly now of folks like Richard Spencer and his like, who are effectively actual Neo Nazis dolled up in expensive designer business suits, 20 dollar haircuts, and take on an affectation of "suave sophistication" in their tone and presentation of their disgusting, reprehensibly garbage views on humanity.

A person meanwhile can likewise impart some of the most invaluable insight and genuinely helpful and wholesome advice or information on a given topic in the most awkward or blunt manner... and those surface level affectations do not invalidate or remove the gravity and substance from their words in the TINIEST bit. Some of the most brilliant philosophical, academic, and artistic/creative minds on the planet are also some of the most socially awkward, abrasive, and uncomfortable speakers you'll ever meet.

Also, I find your insistence on fans in an informal online forum having to conduct themselves "professionally" to be incredibly bizarre and outright comical. This isn't a Church, a courthouse, an office building, or a Kindergarten classroom. This is a forum about a 30+ year old children's cartoon about a Monkey Man kung fu kicking demons and spacemen. We aren't lawyers or statesmen prepping for a legal hearing: we're a bunch of dorks bullshitting randomly about a dumb martial arts fantasy serial.

The way I see it, places like this online are not unlike a bar: you can't start a physical fight or throw punches at folks (which the equivalent in an unphysical setting like this would be verbal abuse and name calling and the like) and you can't suddenly strip naked in front of everyone (which in here would be like posting porn): but apart from obvious things like that, you're PERFECTLY free to curse or use generally vulgar language and idioms, or whatever else in casual discourse, so long as its in good nature and respect of everyone else: since much like a bar, this a casual setting that isn't necessarily intended to be strictly family-friendly.

Particularly given the informal, casual nature of this place, I find the kind of stick-up-the-ass "tone policing" that you're advocating for here to be both greatly misplaced as well as frankly dumb and childishly infantile. I think the idea that "tone matters equally as much as substance" to be inherently vapid and shallow in and of itself (for all the above noted reasons), but its that much more ridiculous and laughable when you're going around a setting as casual and frivolous as this one "tut tut tut!"-ing people and slapping them on the wrist, calling them out as uncouth and unbecoming because they're peppering their sentences with an F bomb, taking on a snarky tone, and aren't generally conducting themselves like a bunch of stuffy college law professors, or whatever it is you expect people to behave like.

While there are certainly some teenagers and younger kids in here, the overwhelming majority of folks here tend to be fully-grown adults (ostensibly at least): so long as they're following the forums rules and not generally being abusive or hurtful to one another (and there's NO forum rules against simple sarcasm or strong language), they can otherwise "conduct themselves" however the fucking hell they damn well please, and are under NO obligations to conform themselves to whatever ridiculous, uptight standards of "decorum" that you've invented in your own head: mainly it seems because you've still apparently got a chip on your shoulder about what some dude wrote on an old website 20 years ago.

Don't get me wrong: I myself have some MASSIVE fucking problems with this community and how functions in other, VASTLY more important and substantive areas than "tone", and I've been in NO way shy about sharing them on here for quite some time now. But in NO WAY do I place the blame for those problems at the feet of some guy who wrote a bunch of (generally funny and well thought out) scathing reviews of the FUNimation dub on a Netscape-era web page back in 1998.

Thinking that the lion's share of this fanbase's biggest problems (of which it CERTAINLY has a great, great deal many) trace themselves primarily back to some college dude who said "this dub is a pile of shit" in a not-polite-enough way is both hilariously juvenile and delusionally out of touch with reality. As if people in this community would all magically be LESS intellectually incurious, bereft of historical context, and emotionally/intellectually stunted at a grade-school level of media awareness and literacy today PURELY had Psaros used a few more "pleases" and "thank yous" in his writing way back when. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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