King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

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King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by Anonymous Friend » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:20 pm

The Reincarnation and Ultimate Creation both fulfilled their intended purposes by killing Goku. It seems like no one really talks about the victories for those villains.

Also, Ten defeated Goku as an antaganist. Or, was he even still much of an antaganist at that point in the story.

Vegeta has never lost fights to Goku. They have two fights. In the first, Vegeta had him down and out, and set to die before interference from the rest of the crew. The only thing Goku really contributes to the rest of the fights was a Spirit Bomb that didn't stop Vegeta from being able to murder everyone. In the second, Goku had SSJ3 in his back pocket, and even though the stakes weren't really that high in that fight (they weren't fighting for their lives), Goku still got knocked out at the end of that fight.

And even if he will never know it happened, Freeza succeeded in killing Goku (with a cheap trick).

I never really see anyone discussing these facts, but these have always stuck with me. How do you feel about them? Should they even matter.
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Re: King Piccilo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:27 pm

Is it really much of a victory for Daimao when his son/reincarnation quickly becomes a good guy and befriends Goku?

I guess you could say Gero would get a greater sense of satisfaction seeing as how Goku's death lasted a few years longer that time, but it's still transient and every single one of his creations either died, joined the other side or didn't carry out his programming at all.
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Re: King Piccilo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by Surai » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:02 pm

I don’t know if Gero’s most successful creation being destroyed can count as a victory. I mean his revenge might not have been his only motive, I think he had greater plans.

As for Piccolo Daimao, I doubt he would have been satisfied with Goku being revived. It’s not just about the physical act of killing him but getting rid of him once and for all. Even Piccolo Jr said that although killing Goku was satisfying, him getting revived would spoil it. So it’s not just about evening the score.

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Re: King Piccilo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:50 pm

There is no character named "King Piccilo"
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Re: King Piccilo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:54 pm

Well I mean, Gero wanted to kill Goku for ruining his plans...and in the end, his plans were ruined even worse than before.
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Re: King Piccilo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by KBABZ » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:22 am

It should be noted that in the original timeline Goku did in fact die of the heart disease, not to mention 17 and 18's rampage that had a significant impact on the state of the world (Trunks would of course make the alternate timeline we're all familiar with that made things better). Daimao is an edge case because, as stated by Kami soon after, Goku CHOSE to sacrifice himself so Raditz could be killed, and considering the Dragon Balls and the start of Jr.'s turn, that seriously blunts the intended goal of Daimao.

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Re: King Piccilo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by Vijay » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:25 am

Dare say only Dr. Gero's long-term & miraculously lucky chain-of-events led him to acheive ultimate revenge on Goku. Dude made sense of why you should have not 1, not 2, but multiple backup plans to carry your mission forward.

Doesn't matter if it takes years to theorize, conceive, complete or experiment your plans before actual execution. It's all about keeping your probability to winning as close as possible with multiple successive strategies.

Be it creating Android 8. Or using spy robots for years studying & analyzing fighting patterns of Goku & co. Or crafting an army of killing-machines from 13-19. Or even turning himself into one.

That one ace in the hole. Cell. Culmination of every possible strongest warriors in the universe & using his very own creation 17 & 18 as part of Cell's complete metamorphosis into "perfect being" or fighter. Nothing beats that.

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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:39 am

Anonymous Friend wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:20 pm

Also, Ten defeated Goku as an antaganist. Or, was he even still much of an antaganist at that point in the story.

Quite simply, no he did not. He won on a technicality and only because Goku landed on an oncoming vehicle. Tenshinhan was well aware that it was, in reality, a draw.

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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by KBABZ » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:24 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:39 am
Anonymous Friend wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:20 pm
Also, Ten defeated Goku as an antaganist. Or, was he even still much of an antaganist at that point in the story.
Quite simply, no he did not. He won on a technicality and only because Goku landed on an oncoming vehicle. Tenshinhan was well aware that it was, in reality, a draw.
Not only that, but he also offered to give Goku ALL of his prize money after the match, acknowledging that Goku was the better fight. Plus, before even that, he was not fighting for revenge against Goku, but instead for himself as a fighter to prove he's better (instead of killing him for his teacher's revenge). Simply put, Tien's original motivations and goals had completely evaporated once he renounced the Crane Hermit, and in no way was he an antagonist at that point.

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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:34 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:24 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:39 am
Anonymous Friend wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:20 pm
Also, Ten defeated Goku as an antaganist. Or, was he even still much of an antaganist at that point in the story.
Quite simply, no he did not. He won on a technicality and only because Goku landed on an oncoming vehicle. Tenshinhan was well aware that it was, in reality, a draw.
Not only that, but he also offered to give Goku ALL of his prize money after the match, acknowledging that Goku was the better fight. Plus, before even that, he was not fighting for revenge against Goku, but instead for himself as a fighter to prove he's better (instead of killing him for his teacher's revenge). Simply put, Tien's original motivations and goals had completely evaporated once he renounced the Crane Hermit, and in no way was he an antagonist at that point.
Tenshinhan is still technically an antagonist, just not an enemy. An antagonist is merely the active opposition to the protagonist, who isn't necessarily a good person.
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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by KBABZ » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:52 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:34 pm
Tenshinhan is still technically an antagonist, just not an enemy. An antagonist is merely the active opposition to the protagonist, who isn't necessarily a good person.
That's true. I would have said by that point Tien is an opponent but not a villain, which nowadays is what antagonist means (even though linguistically speaking that's not what the definition actually is).

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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:25 pm

Sorry to be persnickety, but antagonist doesn't mean that these days. It's simply misused. The etymology of "Antagonist" is a latin word meaning "competitor, rival, opponent". "Protagonist" comes from a Greek word meaning "first in importance"
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:08 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:25 pm
Sorry to be persnickety, but antagonist doesn't mean that these days. It's simply misused. The etymology of "Antagonist" is a latin word meaning "competitor, rival, opponent". "Protagonist" comes from a Greek word meaning "first in importance"

I feel like we’re being somewhat pedantic here.

No, a protagonist doesn’t have to be a good person and an antagonist doesn’t have to be a bad guy. But when talking about an antagonist in narrative fiction, it’s generally referring to who is opposing the protagonist.

Tenshinhan was the antagonist of the 22nd Budokai arc, he wasn’t the antagonist after that because he’s on Goku side even though he still wanted to be stronger than him and best him in a fight.

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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:10 pm

Hence the "persnickety" disclaimer.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:40 pm

Goku basically let Piccolo kill him so that doesn't count.

Cell is the only villain to successfully kill Goku but he didn't care about Gero's desire for revenge.
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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:36 pm

I'm pretty sure Cell specifically wasn't created to kill Goku. Just the Androids.

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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by KBABZ » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:47 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:36 pm
I'm pretty sure Cell specifically wasn't created to kill Goku. Just the Androids.
That reminds me... what WAS the purpose of Cell anyway? From Gero's perspective? We know that Cell wants power for the pursuit of power, but is that what Gero made him for? All he seems to be is the "Perfect Lifeform", which is about as vaguely defined as it is in Sonic the Hedgehog regarding Shadow, and he has a desire to fight because, well, this is Dragon Ball and so that's kinda arbitrary.

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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:57 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:47 pm

All he seems to be is the "Perfect Lifeform"
I'm pretty sure that's it. All Gero wanted to do was create the ultimate being. Why? As far as I tell, because he could. It's really not all that uncommon for scientists and engineers to develop things just to see if they can, out of sheer curiosity and/or passion, and for no other purpose beyond that. It's like, why the hell do we build race cars that go faster than what would ever be allowed on the road? Because we can.

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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:58 pm

I'm not sure if it's a fan theory or stated by Toriyama like the real names of the androids, but if 16 was in fact some sort of tribute to his dead son, then him joining the fighterZ and being critical to Cell's demise outweighs Goku's death, IMO.

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Re: King Piccolo and Dr. Gero both got their revenge

Post by KBABZ » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:03 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:57 pm
KBABZ wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:47 pm
All he seems to be is the "Perfect Lifeform"
I'm pretty sure that's it. All Gero wanted to do was create the ultimate being. Why? As far as I tell, because he could. It's really not all that uncommon for scientists and engineers to develop things just to see if they can, out of sheer curiosity and/or passion, and for no other purpose beyond that. It's like, why the hell do we build race cars that go faster than what would ever be allowed on the road? Because we can.
But like.. by what metric are they (being Gero and Cell) considering himself "perfect"? He never states it, and it's certainly not in the looks department. Is it as a martial artist? Having pointed feet?

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