Do you actually believe that we are currently in some second Dragon Ball golden age?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

It feels like Dragon Ball right has never been this popular, I would argue this is it's Golden Age. When your series is so popular and successful that new material isn't actually required, you know you've done something right!

One Piece last year with a new movie and a new arc tv series while DB had no material. Guess what? DB was comfortably beating it in terms of merch. Now heading into 2020 DB actually has priority over One Piece in terms of merch which is insane considering DB has no new animated material, it got the first MASTERLISE EXTRA before OP, it got the first BWFC SMSP, it got TWO BWFC 2019 SP while OP only got 1.

From October 2019 to June 2020 DB will practically have an Ichiban Kuji once a month...like that is actually insane because a few years ago in September 2017 DB got its first Kuji since Jan 2016... and now we can't go month without one!

Non merch wise, the retellings by the time they came to the Western home release should have flopped they apparently were hated by everyone already aired twice in Japan and America and via streaming and movie were already released.... but they sold like hot cakes.

When Broly was released my cinema had to put a noticeboard outside saying Broly was sold out and they were adding more late night showings all while they gave us the biggest screens they had!

People don't realise how big modern DB made DB and they seriously underestimate. There is success and then there is whatever the f**k DBS managed to pull off.

[KBABZ]

It feels like Dragon Ball right has never been this popular, I would argue this is it's Golden Age. When your series is so popular and successful that new material isn't actually required, you know you've done something right!

I feel that Golden Age is inappropriate simply because, traditionally, "Golden Age" refers to the FIRST period of extreme popularity, which of course for Dragon Ball would refer to the original manga/anime run in the late 80s and early 90s. So a different name should be used.

If you're going by Comic Book naming, the release of Final Bout on PS1 would be the start of the Silver Age, while Battle of Gods would mark the Bronze Age we're currently in. If you go by broad Disney naming, the original manga/anime period is the Golden Age, post-GT is the Dark Age and Battle of Gods started the Renaissance.

Personally I feel that both of those names (Bronze and Renaissance) ignore an important matter about current Dragon Ball productions, which is that, well... they have a rotten core. There's no denying that Dragon Ball is incredibly popular once again with numbers far exceeding the original Japanese and Western runs combined, but complaints about the production quality are frequent, particularly in the animation quality, art quality, seiyuu quality* and story quality. While Dragon Ball and Z are far from perfect, Super, in any of its incarnations, has failed to capture the magic of the original run in the same way that, say, Disney's Renaissance in the 90s captured the magic of their Gold and Silver ages. The current pause in production that's occurring right now is most likely because they want to fix the production issues that plagued the Super anime, by planning ahead for once.

Personally, I think the best Dragon Ball products in the current era are the Broly movie, FighterZ and Battle of Gods. It's a bit of an issue where I cannot confidently point to the Super anime itself as something to hold up among them.


*by which I mean that the returning seiyuu are notably more tired in their performances today than they were back in the day, not that they somehow suck.

[Kunzait_83]

Ignoring how popular Dragon Ball was in the west during 1999-2004 would be like ignoring the Pokemania era of 1999-2000. It might not have correlated with the Japanese popularity as was the case with Pokemon, but it's clearly a significant period where the show was so big it was being referenced in contemporary media.

Setting aside the part about all the harm that the FUNimation dub (and the Saban/Ocean dub for that matter) had done to the series' Western image and the irrevocable fracturing of its fanbase (which KBABZ already covered earlier): one of the other big issues that I've always had with this whole mentality is how it seems to have the unspoken qualifier of putting America (and the English speaking world in general) on some sort of extra-high pedestal of cultural importance and relevance.

So wait... its NOT enough that DB was a series that had thoroughly conquered not just Japan, China, and most of East Asia in general, but also pretty much all of Europe, Latin America, and even various parts of the Middle East? Does it only "count" when something gets exposed and becomes mega-successful here in America, and other English territories? What is it about America (and possibly Britain, Australia, and New Zealand) specifically that makes it so that people have this ingrained assumption like "Well it wasn't REALLY big yet until it came HERE. THEN you can start taking its success seriously."

What is it that makes us anything other than just another country out of countless others that had gotten the series? As near as I can tell, there are mainly two key things that separate America (and the English-speaking world in general) from the rest of the world when it comes to Dragon Ball:

1) We got it WAY stupidly later than almost everyone else. Most other countries had glommed onto the series at some point while it was still in production and ongoing over in Japan: we're somewhere close to near dead-last in getting it more or less right after it has all but finished.

And 2) the lengths and depths to which we went out of our way to alter the very fabric of it. Obviously that's not to say that other countries also didn't have terrible dubs of their own: but very few of them went as over the top with it as we did as to not only rescore the whole thing, but rewrite vast swathes of it, make up entire plot points and character beats from wholecloth, and generally mismarket it as an entirely different entity than what it was. Other countries have had hit and mis dubs, but FUNimation stand well apart as being unique in their attempts to "reversion" it.

Aside from lateness and reversioning though... America's nothing more than just another of COUNTLESS other territories that had gotten Dragon Ball at some point or other.

This is actually a topic that seems like its worthy of a thread all on its own: I've long, long, LONG ago gotten the distinct impression that there are a LOT of U.S. fans who genuinely seem to think that DB wasn't in any way worthy of being called a "pop culture phenomenon" in ANY sense of the phrase until it came to the U.S.

Despite the fact that, once again, the series was SO massively ubiquitous and mega-popular/visible globally, that it STILL managed to cultivate a fairly decently sized North American/British/Australian/English language fanbase SOLELY off of fansubs (and even raws!) and WELL long many years before it was ever officially licensed. To an even GREATER and more outwardly visible extent than a LOT of other anime titles of the time even, including at least a few that were actually licensed here. I mean... that's kinda fucking NUTS for something THIS outwardly and unabashedly foreign/Asian and something without almost ANY form of official advertising at that point in time and relying almost ENTIRELY on raw word of mouth and fan enthusiasm to carry it.

If something is a MASSIVE success in literally EVERY other country on Earth EXCEPT FOR North America... does that mean that unless and until it gets popular in North America, that there's something innately LACKING in that otherwise global success? Look at Soccer for instance: like I'm not a Soccer person myself (or very much of a sports person in general, with a rare few exceptions), but Soccer is literally THE premier sport in COUNTLESS parts of the world (including other English language territories like the UK), EXCEPT FOR North America. So what... because Soccer isn't as culturally relevant in mostly just this ONE part of the world, does its cultural dominance in ALL THOSE OTHER global regions suddenly somehow mean LESS in some way?

That's genuinely the impression I've gotten from most of this fanbase with regards to Dragon Ball for literally as long as I've been a forum member here: that all of Dragon Ball's success in all those other non-English language regions of the world all throughout the 80s and 90s didn't really mean very much until it first came to America dubbed in English.

And because America (and possibly the English territories overall) are somehow innately special enough to where only NOW once its arrived here in our lands can we officially say that DB is a true pop cultural phenomenon: as if what, China, Taiwan, Japan, France, Mexico, Spain, Brazil, Italy, Germany, Greece, Norway, Denmark... those places DON'T have a pop culture of their own? Or if they do, theirs is somehow inherently of less "value" or whatever than ours in some way? I mean... why?

And by the way, don't for a second think that this is some kind of "woke SJW" thing that I'm only just now doing here: this is something that's bugged the living FUCK out of me about these kinds of discussions going ALL the way back to my fucking 2004 join date here.

This assumption seems rooted in this unspoken premise that something can be a HUGE massive fucking cultural phenomenon in ANY OTHER part of the world... but we shouldn't start taking it TRULY seriously until America gets in on it. Because if we don't get into it, then its somehow inherently and innately more negligible and irrelevant in some way?

I've not only noticed this mindset within Dragon Ball discussions (namely centered around the FUNimation dub obviously, and it being the means in which DB was first exposed to an American mainstream audience) but also it even seems to have some spillover into the matter of Wuxia as well, as I've gotten a few folks from time to time who've actually made the argument to me that Wuxia - despite being clearly the primary-most genre that DB embodies from top to bottom - is largely still a mostly irrelevant aspect of discussion with regards to Dragon Ball because its not as popular or well known here in America as it is in other parts of the world (namely East Asia). Again, operating from the framework that something is only noteworthy or relevant when it gains a certain level of mainstream prominence in North America (or in English language territories in general), and not when its super well known and even ubiquitous in ANY OTHER part of the world.

You know what else hasn't really caught on in North America that much? Dr. Slump. Hell, NONE of the Dr. Slump anime have EVER gotten so much as a SINGLE licensed North American release until as recently as 2014. So what, is Dr. Slump somehow a less relevant aspect of DB's history simply because it never aired on American TV in English and set Toonami on fire? Bear in mind also that its still arguable that, back in their respective original time period, that Slump was a relatively bigger deal culturally than DB was over in Japan.

What about COUNTLESS other crucially important and noteworthy anime/manga titles that Toriyama directly cites as a massive influence on DB, like Tezuka's Mitsume ga Toru? That never got a major English translation/license... do we totally disregard that when discussing DB?

Or what about Jackie Chan's Drunken Master and Snake in the Eagle's Shadow: entire plot points, characters, and gags/fights/setpieces are nearly lifted WHOLESALE from those films in Dragon Ball and those films WERE indeed released in America and other English territories... but a LOT of the modern Western/U.S. DB audience here have never seen, or in some cases even HEARD OF THEM before. So what, guess those aren't as relevant either? Hell, most English DB fans have never even read a SINGLE SENTENCE of Journey to the West before, despite there being MULTIPLE English translations for it available for literally DECADES now... but it didn't do Harry Potter numbers in book sales at any point, so how relevant could THAT book ultimately be for DB then?

Hell, lets even pretend for a moment that Dragon Ball had not only NEVER come to the U.S. officially licensed, but also we'll go one even further and pretend that it didn't even cultivate the (again, fairly massive for the time) anime fansub audience that it did way back when... but EVERYTHING else about its international success still holds the same. In this hypothetical scenario where DB was a worldwide ubiquitous smash hit phenomenon in almost EVERY other corner of the world EXCEPT for the United States, where it might not have even had a fansub audience... does that scenario therefore mean that DB's worldwide, global success is somehow not "validated" enough?

What is it about something being mega-monster Happy Meal successful in the United States, first foremost and above all else, that makes the success of something innately more "valid" and "notable" than if it were just as successful literally ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE else besides? Is it mainly JUST the fact that this just so happens to be the country where a lot of you folks just so happen to live? Or is there something else beyond that that's at play here in this kind of American/English-centric outlook?

Like, I'm not even trying to imply or insinuate anything here: I am genuinely and honest-to-god sincerely fucking BAFFLED by this entire mindset, and always have been from pretty much day one.

[ABED]

It feels like Dragon Ball right has never been this popular, I would argue this is it's Golden Age. When your series is so popular and successful that new material isn't actually required, you know you've done something right!

I feel that Golden Age is inappropriate simply because, traditionally, "Golden Age" refers to the FIRST period of extreme popularity, which of course for Dragon Ball would refer to the original manga/anime run in the late 80s and early 90s. So a different name should be used.

If you're going by Comic Book naming, the release of Final Bout on PS1 would be the start of the Silver Age, while Battle of Gods would mark the Bronze Age we're currently in. If you go by broad Disney naming, the original manga/anime period is the Golden Age, post-GT is the Dark Age and Battle of Gods started the Renaissance.

I don't think the original post was being that specific when using the term "Golden Age". I assume they meant it in the general sense - the period in which a work was at its apex of creativity. And while I think it's silly to say there is more than one golden age, there's nothing saying there can't be. For example there are two eras that are referred to as the golden age of TV, the first was from the late 40's through the 50's, and the second is from 2000 through now.

[KBABZ]

I don't think the original post was being that specific when using the term "Golden Age". I assume they meant it in the general sense - the period in which a work was at its apex of creativity. And while I think it's silly to say there is more than one golden age, there's nothing saying there can't be. For example there are two eras that are referred to as the golden age of TV, the first was from the late 40's through the 50's, and the second is from 2000 through now.

Fair enough, although I don't think the current era of Dragon Ball would qualify for that either.

[Mister_Popo]

Yes, although the original series as well as the new one both have their pros and cons. The original had its downsides, while the new one has its good sides. I still don't buy the attitude 'the original series was the ultimate utopia and all the rest was just crap while only the nostalgia drug or whatever was doing its thing ..." That's too superficial and lacks nuance.

[ABED]

Yes, although the original series as well as the new one both have their pros and cons. The original had its downsides, while the new one has its good sides. I still don't buy the attitude 'the original series was the ultimate utopia and all the rest was just crap while the nostalgia drug or whatever was doing its thing ..." That's too superficial and lacks nuance.

While true, the mere fact of new DB existing mostly on nostalgia puts it several rungs below the original rung.

[GhostEmperorX]

Setting aside the part about all the harm that the FUNimation dub (and the Saban/Ocean dub for that matter) had done to the series' Western image and the irrevocable fracturing of its fanbase (which KBABZ already covered earlier): one of the other big issues that I've always had with this whole mentality is how it seems to have the unspoken qualifier of putting America (and the English speaking world in general) on some sort of extra-high pedestal of cultural importance and relevance.

So wait... its NOT enough that DB was a series that had thoroughly conquered not just Japan, China, and most of East Asia in general, but also pretty much all of Europe, Latin America, and even various parts of the Middle East? Does it only "count" when something gets exposed and becomes mega-successful here in America, and other English territories? What is it about America (and possibly Britain, Australia, and New Zealand) specifically that makes it so that people have this ingrained assumption like "Well it wasn't REALLY big yet until it came HERE. THEN you can start taking its success seriously."

There's also the fact of its undeniable influence in Japan. Somehow I recall people saying that it wasn't all that big over there, can't remember where though, but that was definitely false as it had influenced numerous other pop culture hit anime, such as Naruto and One Piece. If that isn't a testament to its reach then idk what is.

What is it that makes us anything other than just another country out of countless others that had gotten the series? As near as I can tell, there are mainly two key things that separate America (and the English-speaking world in general) from the rest of the world when it comes to Dragon Ball:

1) We got it WAY stupidly later than almost everyone else. Most other countries had glommed onto the series at some point while it was still in production and ongoing over in Japan: we're somewhere close to near dead-last in getting it more or less right after it has all but finished.

And 2) the lengths and depths to which we went out of our way to alter the very fabric of it. Obviously that's not to say that other countries also didn't have terrible dubs of their own: but very few of them went as over the top with it as we did as to not only rescore the whole thing, but rewrite vast swathes of it, make up entire plot points and character beats from wholecloth, and generally mismarket it as an entirely different entity than what it was. Other countries have had hit and mis dubs, but FUNimation stand well apart as being unique in their attempts to "reversion" it.

Before Dragon Ball in fact, most anime (like numerous mecha shows) that made its way into America did so only because they were adapted from their original source. It was hit-or-miss for the most part and was the order of things until Dragon Ball came around, when they had to stop doing adaptations and actually try to dub the show. DB basically took the fall in the original dubbing process so other anime could come through with proper dubbing and little to no changes to their structure.

Aside from lateness and reversioning though... America's nothing more than just another of COUNTLESS other territories that had gotten Dragon Ball at some point or other.

This is actually a topic that seems like its worthy of a thread all on its own: I've long, long, LONG ago gotten the distinct impression that there are a LOT of U.S. fans who genuinely seem to think that DB wasn't in any way worthy of being called a "pop culture phenomenon" in ANY sense of the phrase until it came to the U.S.

Despite the fact that, once again, the series was SO massively ubiquitous and mega-popular/visible globally, that it STILL managed to cultivate a fairly decently sized North American/British/Australian/English language fanbase SOLELY off of fansubs (and even raws!) and WELL long many years before it was ever officially licensed. To an even GREATER and more outwardly visible extent than a LOT of other anime titles of the time even, including at least a few that were actually licensed here. I mean... that's kinda fucking NUTS for something THIS outwardly and unabashedly foreign/Asian and something without almost ANY form of official advertising at that point in time and relying almost ENTIRELY on raw word of mouth and fan enthusiasm to carry it.

If something is a MASSIVE success in literally EVERY other country on Earth EXCEPT FOR North America... does that mean that unless and until it gets popular in North America, that there's something innately LACKING in that otherwise global success? Look at Soccer for instance: like I'm not a Soccer person myself (or very much of a sports person in general, with a rare few exceptions), but Soccer is literally THE premier sport in COUNTLESS parts of the world (including other English language territories like the UK), EXCEPT FOR North America. So what... because Soccer isn't as culturally relevant in mostly just this ONE part of the world, does its cultural dominance in ALL THOSE OTHER global regions suddenly somehow mean LESS in some way?

That's genuinely the impression I've gotten from most of this fanbase with regards to Dragon Ball for literally as long as I've been a forum member here: that all of Dragon Ball's success in all those other non-English language regions of the world all throughout the 80s and 90s didn't really mean very much until it first came to America dubbed in English.

And because America (and possibly the English territories overall) are somehow innately special enough to where only NOW once its arrived here in our lands can we officially say that DB is a true pop cultural phenomenon: as if what, China, Taiwan, Japan, France, Mexico, Spain, Brazil, Italy, Germany, Greece, Norway, Denmark... those places DON'T have a pop culture of their own? Or if they do, theirs is somehow inherently of less "value" or whatever than ours in some way? I mean... why?

And by the way, don't for a second think that this is some kind of "woke SJW" thing that I'm only just now doing here: this is something that's bugged the living FUCK out of me about these kinds of discussions going ALL the way back to my fucking 2004 join date here.

This assumption seems rooted in this unspoken premise that something can be a HUGE massive fucking cultural phenomenon in ANY OTHER part of the world... but we shouldn't start taking it TRULY seriously until America gets in on it. Because if we don't get into it, then its somehow inherently and innately more negligible and irrelevant in some way?

I've not only noticed this mindset within Dragon Ball discussions (namely centered around the FUNimation dub obviously, and it being the means in which DB was first exposed to an American mainstream audience) but also it even seems to have some spillover into the matter of Wuxia as well, as I've gotten a few folks from time to time who've actually made the argument to me that Wuxia - despite being clearly the primary-most genre that DB embodies from top to bottom - is largely still a mostly irrelevant aspect of discussion with regards to Dragon Ball because its not as popular or well known here in America as it is in other parts of the world (namely East Asia). Again, operating from the framework that something is only noteworthy or relevant when it gains a certain level of mainstream prominence in North America (or in English language territories in general), and not when its super well known and even ubiquitous in ANY OTHER part of the world.

You know what else hasn't really caught on in North America that much? Dr. Slump. Hell, NONE of the Dr. Slump anime have EVER gotten so much as a SINGLE licensed North American release until as recently as 2014. So what, is Dr. Slump somehow a less relevant aspect of DB's history simply because it never aired on American TV in English and set Toonami on fire? Bear in mind also that its still arguable that, back in their respective original time period, that Slump was a relatively bigger deal culturally than DB was over in Japan.

What about COUNTLESS other crucially important and noteworthy anime/manga titles that Toriyama directly cites as a massive influence on DB, like Tezuka's Mitsume ga Toru? That never got a major English translation/license... do we totally disregard that when discussing DB?

Or what about Jackie Chan's Drunken Master and Snake in the Eagle's Shadow: entire plot points, characters, and gags/fights/setpieces are nearly lifted WHOLESALE from those films in Dragon Ball and those films WERE indeed released in America and other English territories... but a LOT of the modern Western/U.S. DB audience here have never seen, or in some cases even HEARD OF THEM before. So what, guess those aren't as relevant either? Hell, most English DB fans have never even read a SINGLE SENTENCE of Journey to the West before, despite there being MULTIPLE English translations for it available for literally DECADES now... but it didn't do Harry Potter numbers in book sales at any point, so how relevant could THAT book ultimately be for DB then?

Hell, lets even pretend for a moment that Dragon Ball had not only NEVER come to the U.S. officially licensed, but also we'll go one even further and pretend that it didn't even cultivate the (again, fairly massive for the time) anime fansub audience that it did way back when... but EVERYTHING else about its international success still holds the same. In this hypothetical scenario where DB was a worldwide ubiquitous smash hit phenomenon in almost EVERY other corner of the world EXCEPT for the United States, where it might not have even had a fansub audience... does that scenario therefore mean that DB's worldwide, global success is somehow not "validated" enough?

What is it about something being mega-monster Happy Meal successful in the United States, first foremost and above all else, that makes the success of something innately more "valid" and "notable" than if it were just as successful literally ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE else besides? Is it mainly JUST the fact that this just so happens to be the country where a lot of you folks just so happen to live? Or is there something else beyond that that's at play here in this kind of American/English-centric outlook?

Like, I'm not even trying to imply or insinuate anything here: I am genuinely and honest-to-god sincerely fucking BAFFLED by this entire mindset, and always have been from pretty much day one.

Agreed in general with this sentiment, because there's numerous material from there that never made it to America (like Ideon or most Sunrise properties in general) which still have influences on a lot of the shows they take for granted (Evangelion being another example).

[BagetaSama]

I mean yeah of course. By essentially any metric, Dragon Ball has become dramatically more popular since Super came out, and is about as popular now as it has ever been. Surely that could be described as a "revival."

[Majin Buu]

Personally, I think the best Dragon Ball products in the current era are the Broly movie, FighterZ and Battle of Gods. It's a bit of an issue where I cannot confidently point to the Super anime itself as something to hold up among them.

This is more or less my view. I can't call this a "second golden age" when I find most of the stuff coming out lacking in quality. Super itself especially.

[Novantico]

I think the western golden ages are 2000ish-2005, especially the last few years of that period. Everyone was in love with the games who enjoyed the show, and I couldn't go anywhere as a kid without finding at least a couple people who wanted to talk about it.

In modern times, I'm gonna sorta arbitrarily say 2017-present is another golden age. People were super hype when BoG came out, and Resurrection F was even more popular in terms of moviegoers, but I think it still had to ramp up overall. And hell, Goku has had a balloon in the Thanksgiving Day Parade 2 years running, which is insane.

[Nightbane]

Yes, infact I would call this the true Golden Age considering I think Super is much, much, MUCH better than Z. I know that trigger some of the users here that someone would speak the truth but it is what it is, classic DB was the Diamond Age, Super is the Golden Age, and Z is the Rusty Bronze age

[KBABZ]

Yes, infact I would call this the true Golden Age considering I think Super is much, much, MUCH better than Z. I know that trigger some of the users here that someone would speak the truth but it is what it is, classic DB was the Diamond Age, Super is the Golden Age, and Z is the Rusty Bronze age

Eh, I disagree but I'm glad you're liking it so much!

[JustAlex1997]

I live in Canada, and I can just walk into a Walmart and buy Dragon Ball merchandise as easily as something like Paw Patrol. Maybe other provinces are different than my own, but I haven't been able to say that since around 2009.

I'd say the demand is bigger than it's been in a long time. Hell, I haven't seen Dragon Ball merchandise this frequently in my area since Jakks Pacific still had the license.

[emperior]

From my experience we clearly are. In fact it feels like it’s bigger than ever, due to how widely available it is now thanks to the digital era and how widespread anime is becoming nowadays.

When I went to see Broly at the theater, it was full of fans and I heard people discussing the movie and the future of the serie in the metro too!

The release of Kakarot was quite big at my local Gamestop. with the store full of promotional posters for it. And I also saw a lot of merchandise of DB too in the store, something I had never seen before.

[10gigtriforce]

I mean... kinda? Yes I know that golden age generally refers to its first big popularity boom(which even the dates of that could be VERY heavily discussed). But I dont know if DB has ever been quite this big in terms of numbers of fans. There all us ancient weebs who watched the ocean dub, toonami, collected og fan subs(or for me had family that did and they let me watch them). The people who started out once it was in the andriod saga on toonami, the ones who started with video games and the 'revival movies', kai originating fans, and super/new game fans(xenoverse, fighterz, kakarot).


So its very easy to argue that yeah the fanbase is bigger now than it ever has been before. Bigger more hyped games, unofficial fan projects, manga easily available completed, kai db gt super at our finger tips. merch out the wazoo, all thats missing is a competent Z release.