Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

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Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:34 pm

Hey, everyone.

So, I've always been a huge fan of the Ocean dub. Yes, it was the first Dragon Ball Z dub I've been exposed to and yes, I live in the US, so the body of work that the Ocean crew did for the series was heavily overtaken by Funimation's in-house cast. In fact, I didn't even know that the Ocean cast continued its work on the series until roughly 2003 or 2004. And still, that original U.S. dub struck a chord with me that I could never shake off.

A couple of years ago, I finally got my hands on the "Westwood" dub of DBZ -- something that is a very easy feat, but not so easy for someone who's never used any sort of torrent sites, etc. I mean, after all, I "supported the official release." But, I've never been able to shake off the intrigue of seeing the Ocean cast back in the booth for the series, so I caved and finally got my hands on it.

Even though I'm sure that I'm eons behind everyone else on here, last night I discovered that there were files out there that did what I wanted to do (but don't have the time or know-how to do), which was splice the Ocean dub in with the Funimation dub and overlay it onto Dragon Box footage. Acquiring this brought immense joy to me and I'm very curious to watch the series with this "new" perspective.

It's not about what's accurate, what's better, what's "correct," or anything like that. But, it is just something that will always bring happy memories to me.

So, I ask you -- does anyone here still watch the Ocean/Westwood dub? Does it hold a special place in your hearts? And maybe, if you could only pick the English-speaking cast members to build your all-star Dragon Ball/Z/GT/Kai/Super dub, which actors would you prefer in each role? I already know that it would be McNeil, Drummond, Corlett, and Henderson for me (the rest is debatable).

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by 90sDBZ » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:55 pm

I grew up watching the UK broadcast, so had lots of exposure to both the Canadian and Texas casts.

To this day I still love the Saban dub of those first 2 seasons. The script never bothered me, the acting was awesome in general, and I really enjoy Ron Wasserman's music.

For me the Westwood dub just didn't live up to what came before, due to the rushed performances and limited score. It got much better near the end of the Buu saga, with improved performances and much better music (which was mostly from Monster Rancher). It's just a shame it didn't improve sooner.

I saw the Pioneer movie trilogy years later and really enjoyed it.

While I'm a bigger fan of the US cast overall, I still much prefer watching those 2 Seasons and 3 movies with the Canadian cast.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:25 pm

I’ve only seem a few episodes of the Westwood era. It’s really not any worse than the Funimation dub. Some of the casting is worse some is a lot better. I’ll take Saffron Henderson or Jillian Michaels any day of the week over Stephanie Nadolny.

The recycled Megaman music is...kind of lame but the Faulconer music is ear bleeding levels of awful.

Being paired with the Kikuchi score now (well since 2007) is about the only thing the Texas dub has over the Vancouver dub.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:57 pm

Yes fond memories of the original Ocean era. Would have preferred more of that instead of what we got. Peter Kelamis was just awesome. Love all of the acting and music. I've come to really appreciate the dudes playing Yamcha and especially Tien. Classic stuff all around.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:00 pm

Personally, the Vancouver cast are the cast of Dragon Ball to me. Probably largely due to nostalgia (on a more objective level, the Japanese cast really are the best cast by a country mile). But honestly, I do think there's a lot to love about them even with that aside.

I see a lot of hate around for the Ocean cast; honestly, it's almost all just people who grew up on Funi's cast, who hate hearing something different to what they're used to (and probably they only heard Ocean's work through a few clips that they found on YouTube). See also: Bang Zoom's Super dub.
And I find this quite sad; the Vancouver cast did great work, and I think it deserves to be appreciated right alongside the Japanese and Funi versions. Especially with how awesome the Pioneer movies were. Ocean deserves far better than "lol ocean sux. piccolo sounds like wolverine lmao. funi 4 lyfe. #notmyvegeta", as I constantly see thrown around, even on this very forum from time to time. I think it does a disservice to both the Ocean and Funi casts to be so reductive and silly, only judging Ocean through the lens of how you compare a handful of clips of them to a cast you've watched since you were a kid.

As for the Westwood Z dub in particular, honestly I hold that in a particularly soft spot. It had directorial issues early on, the music didn't really come into its own until the Boo arc, the voice of Gohan they had standing in for Saffron Henderson during the Cell Games saga was somewhat lacklustre, and the first few episodes clearly have a lot of the voice actors not quite back in the rhythm of playing their characters yet (and a few of the castings introduced at that point were clearly done in a hurry). But if you can look past these surface-level gripes, and give it a chance to watch it grow a little from its rough start, it's a really solid piece of work. It is still held back by Funimation's rather poor scripts, but the casting is generally quite good, the acting is great, the music evokes a rather neat atmosphere even before it starts to actually stand out as good music later on...
I like this dub. Honestly, I enjoy it more than the Saban dub; much as the Saban dub had some great performances, I think the hyper-aggressive music and some of the weirder script choices do hold it back. It has an over-the-top charm to it that I really dig, but I prefer the Westwood dub's more subdued yet still goofy feel. Kinda feels closer to the original intention of the show, y'know?

It's a shame they moved GT, and later DB, to the Calgary-based Blue Water cast; if they'd kept it in Vancouver, GT would be a near-perfect dub, honestly, and DB wouldn't have been too far behind that. As it stands, it's a solid piece of work, held back by a few iffy castings, and some slightly stiff overall direction. Would've been nice to hear the Vancouver crew take a crack at it instead, with the highly-accurate scripts and tone of GT's dub in particular.

Of course, there's also the unreleased Kai dub; apparently for Kai, they re-auditioned the longest-reigning actor for each part from both the Vancouver Ocean pool, and the Calgary Blue Water pool. We get reprisals like Scott McNeil as Piccolo and Brian Drummond as Vegeta, but several castings deemed unfitting were replaced, such as Kirby Morrow's Goku being auditioned (not Kelamis or Corlett; I think they only auditioned the longest-serving casting of each character), but dropped in favour of the new casting, Richard Ian Cox. Another new cast member is Lee Tockar as Freeza.
Scripts are new, original translations of the original Japanese (probably similar in feel to the Pioneer movies and Blue Water GT), Brian Drummond said they were allowed to say "Hell" and "Damn" in this dub. Pronunciations and terminology were re-considered, with Namek being pronounced as it is in the Japanese (nar-mek), and they didn't use either the plagiarised Yamamoto or awful Kikuchi scores, they used an original score; composed by the Anitunes guys whose music was reused from other shows to make the Westwood score, but this time around it's a full, original score composed for the show, which has been compared to the early '00s Teen Titans and Justice League cartoon scores.

I really hope Netflix UK & CA pick up Ocean's Kai dub, it really needs to see the light of day; the rep who I talked to in live chat showed a lot of interest, and the Tweet petitioning for it is gaining decent traction, so it could very well happen. :)
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by samuraix123 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:26 pm

Heck yeah dude! I still have my Pioneer Ocean box sets! actually, For the first 3 movies that's the only way I watch them is by Ocean. for a while I actually forgot about the ocean dub and just watched the series until it ended on Toonami then when the Orange Bricks came out and rewatched the series and I thought, ''Something isn't right? I remember Vegeta screaming about his wrath on planet namek'' then I did a little research. and the rest was history haha memories came flooding back and I bought all the Ocean Sets boxes and I've been collecting ever since. :thumbup: I did however skip on buying the Rock the Dragon set and honestly I don't know why? I guess because I heard it was no different than the original DVDs that I have that are in perfect condition so why upgrade? but idk...no point crying over it now haha
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:33 pm

samuraix123 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:26 pm
Heck yeah dude! I still have my Pioneer Ocean box sets! actually, For the first 3 movies that's the only way I watch them is by Ocean. for a while I actually forgot about the ocean dub and just watched the series until it ended on Toonami then when the Orange Bricks came out and rewatched the series and I thought, ''Something isn't right? I remember Vegeta screaming about his wrath on planet namek'' then I did a little research. and the rest was history haha memories came flooding back and I bought all the Ocean Sets boxes and I've been collecting ever since. :thumbup:
Heh. This sounds quite familiar to me. :)

It was great when I managed to track down Ocean's version again at last. And yeah, similarly, the Pioneer movie dubs are the only way I watch those movies now... And tbh, the only way I could get through Z movie 3 aside from watching Big Green's version. :lol:
samuraix123 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:26 pm
I did however skip on buying the Rock the Dragon set and honestly I don't know why? I guess because I heard it was no different than the original DVDs that I have that are in perfect condition so why upgrade? but idk...no point crying over it now haha
Fair. TBH, the Rock The Dragon set sucked. They went with the censored, cut-up TV edits of movies 1 & 2, they used the Saban version of movie 3 without including the uncut version, and the overall video quality of the RTD set is really shit, especially when compared to the really nice Madman DVD singles from ten years earlier.

And honestly, the greatest sin of all: The RTD set was a shitty limited-edition box set. They didn't even do something as simple as an interview with any of the original cast for a bonus feature or something. And IIRC the discs all came in stupid cardboard sleeves that'll scratch 'em up real easy.
Originally, the pitch for it was that it'd be a cheap DVD release containing the entire run of Z over a handful of volumes, using the OG Funi dub of episodes 54-276, as they aired on Toonami, in addition to the Saban episodes 1-53. That way, nostalgic people can just easily, cheaply pick up "that show I used to watch way back when". Thus they'd finally give the US fans a way to actually own the version they used to watch on TV back in 1996-2003. But Funi ended up shooting that down. Credit to them for acknowledging that both the Vancouver cast exist/existed, and that they own the rights to this material they had that cast dub, and they did use the uncensored audio of episodes 1 & 2 (Roshi says "I smell death in the air", etc.), but this is negated by their shitty strategy that guaranteed these sets are unattainable for anyone who didn't hear about it back in 2013, and ending up releasing this set with such shitty quality and using the shitty censored versions of movies 1 & 2, and not including the uncut version of movie 3, and they never released this set in the UK anyway... :problem:
Proof #519 that Funi don't really care about their fans.
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by samuraix123 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:51 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:33 pm
samuraix123 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:26 pm
Heck yeah dude! I still have my Pioneer Ocean box sets! actually, For the first 3 movies that's the only way I watch them is by Ocean. for a while I actually forgot about the ocean dub and just watched the series until it ended on Toonami then when the Orange Bricks came out and rewatched the series and I thought, ''Something isn't right? I remember Vegeta screaming about his wrath on planet namek'' then I did a little research. and the rest was history haha memories came flooding back and I bought all the Ocean Sets boxes and I've been collecting ever since. :thumbup:
Heh. This sounds quite familiar to me. :)

It was great when I managed to track down Ocean's version again at last. And yeah, similarly, the Pioneer movie dubs are the only way I watch those movies now... And tbh, the only way I could get through Z movie 3 aside from watching Big Green's version. :lol:
samuraix123 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:26 pm
I did however skip on buying the Rock the Dragon set and honestly I don't know why? I guess because I heard it was no different than the original DVDs that I have that are in perfect condition so why upgrade? but idk...no point crying over it now haha
Fair. TBH, the Rock The Dragon set sucked. They went with the censored, cut-up TV edits of movies 1 & 2, they used the Saban version of movie 3 without including the uncut version, and the overall video quality of the RTD set is really shit, especially when compared to the really nice Madman DVD singles from ten years earlier.

And honestly, the greatest sin of all: The RTD set was a shitty limited-edition box set. They didn't even do something as simple as an interview with any of the original cast for a bonus feature or something. And IIRC the discs all came in stupid cardboard sleeves that'll scratch 'em up real easy.
Originally, the pitch for it was that it'd be a cheap DVD release containing the entire run of Z over a handful of volumes, using the OG Funi dub of episodes 54-276, as they aired on Toonami, in addition to the Saban episodes 1-53. That way, nostalgic people can just easily, cheaply pick up "that show I used to watch way back when". Thus they'd finally give the US fans a way to actually own the version they used to watch on TV back in 1996-2003. But Funi ended up shooting that down. Credit to them for acknowledging that both the Vancouver cast exist/existed, and that they own the rights to this material they had that cast dub, and they did use the uncensored audio of episodes 1 & 2 (Roshi says "I smell death in the air", etc.), but this is negated by their shitty strategy that guaranteed these sets are unattainable for anyone who didn't hear about it back in 2013, and ending up releasing this set with such shitty quality and using the shitty censored versions of movies 1 & 2, and not including the uncut version of movie 3, and they never released this set in the UK anyway... :problem:
Proof #519 that Funi don't really care about their fans.
I will disagree with you on this a bit. I do believe Funimation does care about the fanbase. How much? I don't know. I wrote them years ago(even had a topic here on kanzenshuu with pics) asking could I get Sean and Chris to sign something for me so I could have it in my collection because I don't get out that often and where I live, getting to any cons etc is just impossible. and they sent me back in a huge boxset an autographed poster of battle of Gods, and I believe the first 2 or 3 bluray sets that had just released at the time. they had no obligation to do that. yeah, they do release some iffy products from time to time but I am grateful they have given us everything that we have. the movies, specials, yadda yadda. heck, I wished they would have finished Toriko! I love that show a lot and it just wasn't popular enough in the US :/
The Dragonboxes are like a middle aged woman who still looks good through simply taking good care of her skin and body with maybe a tiny bit of makeup while the Orange Bricks are like a middle aged woman who get's 50 tons of botox, makeup and plastic surgery in order to look younger and as a result looks even worse. ~ ringworm128
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:59 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:33 pm
and ending up releasing this set with such shitty quality and using the shitty censored versions of movies 1 & 2, and not including the uncut version of movie 3, and they never released this set in the UK anyway... :problem:
Proof #519 that Funi don't really care about their fans.
To be fair the whole thing was marketed as “Dragon Ball Z as you first watched it on Toonami” (making it weirder they didn’t include the rest of the 276 episodes that aired on Toonami but I think Funimation wants to pretend they had no creative involvement in the Ocean era and the Orange Bricks is their true definitive version or whatever) so the low quality and using the versions of the movies that aired on Toonami made sense...I suppose.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:18 pm

samuraix123 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:51 pm
I will disagree with you on this a bit. I do believe Funimation does care about the fanbase. How much? I don't know. I wrote them years ago(even had a topic here on kanzenshuu with pics) asking could I get Sean and Chris to sign something for me so I could have it in my collection because I don't get out that often and where I live, getting to any cons etc is just impossible. and they sent me back in a huge boxset an autographed poster of battle of Gods, and I believe the first 2 or 3 bluray sets that had just released at the time. they had no obligation to do that. yeah, they do release some iffy products from time to time but I am grateful they have given us everything that we have. the movies, specials, yadda yadda. heck, I wished they would have finished Toriko! I love that show a lot and it just wasn't popular enough in the US :/
Fair. Though I was mostly just referring to their business side, and particularly their home video division. The creative side, particularly anyone involved in the dub production, cares A LOT about what the fans want.

Remember that time Chris Sabat cast Brian Drummond to reprise his role as Vegeta, for Jelly Vegeta in Super? :)
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:59 pm
To be fair the whole thing was marketed as “Dragon Ball Z as you first watched it on Toonami” (making it weirder they didn’t include the rest of the 276 episodes that aired on Toonami but I think Funimation wants to pretend they had no creative involvement in the Ocean era and the Orange Bricks is their true definitive version or whatever) so [...] using the versions of the movies that aired on Toonami made sense...I suppose.
In theory, this kinda makes sense... But the TV versions of the Pioneer movies didn't use alternate lines or anything like that, literally the only difference is that some scenes were cut out, and the OP/ED was replaced with Rock The Dragon.

And then there's the problem that their version of Tree Of Might is the whole movie, but in its Saban-dubbed form, as a separate feature from the original 53 episodes. Originally, it aired as a three-part thing during the Namek saga. As it stands, it ends up just feeling like a really inconsistent thing to put next to the other two, super-accurate but awkwardly-cut movies. And it raises questions about why Funi has never included the uncut Pioneer dubs on their releases of the movies, even though there is no reason for them not to, and they've done similar with older dubs of other properties they've released (such as Escaflowne)...
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:59 pm
the low quality [...] made sense...I suppose.
Nah, the low quality is just shit. There's no excusing it, at all.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:35 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:18 pm

In theory, this kinda makes sense... But the TV versions of the Pioneer movies didn't use alternate lines or anything like that
Did the versions of Dead Zone and World’s Strongest Funimation use for the Rock the Dragon set differ from how they aired on Toonami?
And then there's the problem that their version of Tree Of Might is the whole movie, but in its Saban-dubbed form, as a separate feature from the original 53 episodes. Originally, it aired as a three-part thing during the Namek saga. As it stands, it ends up just feeling like a really inconsistent thing to put next to the other two, super-accurate but awkwardly-cut movies
Because that’s how it aired on Toonami. The 3 parter in the middle of the Namek saga was how it aired in syndication. Toonami showed the Saban approved tv version as a single movie instead of using an edited version of the Pioneer release.

Funimation was marketing the set to how it was seen on Toonami. The 53 episodes and the three movies with the first two being edited for content and the third being the tv version edited as a movie
And it raises questions about why Funi has never included the uncut Pioneer dubs on their releases of the movies, even though there is no reason for them not to, and they've done similar with older dubs of other properties they've released (such as Escaflowne)...
We might as well ask why Funimation redubbed those movies in the first place. When they went back and redubbed the first 67 episodes and first Dragon Ball movie and the first 13 episodes of Dragon Ball at least that made sense. But those movies were already dubbed uncut and all Funimation did was censor them more (using replacement music, removing uses of hell in the dialog not using Gohan’s songs or head cha la even with the Japanese score). Literally no reason to do it other than to stroke off their cast by making sure they replaced everything the Ocean cast had done.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:46 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:35 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:18 pm

In theory, this kinda makes sense... But the TV versions of the Pioneer movies didn't use alternate lines or anything like that
Did the versions of Dead Zone and World’s Strongest Funimation use for the Rock the Dragon set differ from how they aired on Toonami?
And then there's the problem that their version of Tree Of Might is the whole movie, but in its Saban-dubbed form, as a separate feature from the original 53 episodes. Originally, it aired as a three-part thing during the Namek saga. As it stands, it ends up just feeling like a really inconsistent thing to put next to the other two, super-accurate but awkwardly-cut movies
Because that’s how it aired on Toonami. The 3 parter in the middle of the Namek saga was how it aired in syndication. Toonami showed the Saban approved tv version as a single movie instead of using an edited version of the Pioneer release.

Funimation was marketing the set to how it was seen on Toonami. The 53 episodes and the three movies with the first two being edited for content and the third being the tv version edited as a movie
And it raises questions about why Funi has never included the uncut Pioneer dubs on their releases of the movies, even though there is no reason for them not to, and they've done similar with older dubs of other properties they've released (such as Escaflowne)...
We might as well ask why Funimation redubbed those movies in the first place. When they went back and redubbed the first 67 episodes and first Dragon Ball movie and the first 13 episodes of Dragon Ball at least that made sense. But those movies were already dubbed uncut and all Funimation did was censor them more (using replacement music, removing uses of hell in the dialog not using Gohan’s songs or head cha la even with the Japanese score). Literally no reason to do it other than to stroke off their cast by making sure they replaced everything the Ocean cast had done.
I don't get it either, especially considering those movie dubs were and are still considered to be hands down the best work that the Ocean team had done Dragon Ball related though it ties into FUNi after they had taken dubbing production in house with their own cast from Season 3 onward and basically swept what the previous VA's had done under the rug with things such as the Ultimate Uncut redub in 2005, and Z movies 1-3 were part of that though as you mention it made less sense to do so. The in house versions of the latter are a downgrade in basically every regard from Ocean's take with Pioneer's direction that was under a decade old at that point. The only time they've really given the old series and movie dubs any time in the sun since assuming full production of the show's dub in 1999 and after Pioneer's sublicense to the aforementioned edited 53 episode run expired in 2003 was with the Rock the Dragon set and that had numerous issues as Robo4900 has already mentioned ad nauseum and even then it was only 1-53 of the '96-'98 dub that got released and not their own OG pre remastered 54-276 in house dub as had been initially planned.

Those three movies were definitely less in need of a redub than that batch of DBZ episodes or COTBR/DB eps 1-13, and it is effectively a downgrade in effectively all aspects.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:35 pm

I'm thoroughly enjoying watching this spliced version of the Ocean dub together with the Funimation version that's been overlayed on the Dragon Box.

Overall, I love watching the Westwood dub -- flaws and all. Yeah, the music thing sucks and yeah, delivery is wonky, but I still get a kick out of it. I find a lot of enjoyment out the returning cast, but feel like they dropped the ball on a lot of the new roles (even if an old cast member did the voice, like Bobbidi, for example).

I can't seem to get into the Blue Water dub, though. I don't know why it's so hard for me. I think a lot of the voice actors chosen were no worse, if not better, than Funimation's but for some reason, it's hard for me to sit through.

But I'm of the mindset that the more dubs, the merrier. While I do want new fans to be exposed to an accurate portrayal of the series, I've seen it many times, so I'll gladly take the weird, quirky alternative alongside (not instead of) the original.

So what would your guys' "all-star" voice roster be (if you could only pick out of the English-speaking dubs' talent pool)? I feel bad that Sabat really made great strides in his performances, but I'd pick Ocean Piccolo, Vegeta, and Yamucha over his. People say that Drummond isn't a good fit for the later version of Vegeta, but I know that he has the ability to. I don't even think that he was bad in the Westwood dub, and I always felt that he kind of sounded like Ryō Horikawa (particularly when yelling). I remember thinking, "I guess they did an accurate job with Vegeta" when first exposed to the Japanese voice cast through The Great Dragon Ball Legend.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by ikaos » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:40 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:35 pm
I'm thoroughly enjoying watching this spliced version of the Ocean dub together with the Funimation version that's been overlayed on the Dragon Box.
Hm I wonder where that came from ;)

The Saban/Ocean dub era is one of my favorites, but I can say it's almost 100% nostalgia for 90s era anime and my childhood in general. The script varies wildly from being actually fairly accurate (Raditz's spiel to Goku about joining him is almost verbatim) to inexplicable things like Goku being upset that Raditz never took him to a baseball game, over 9000 instead of 8000, Bardock the brilliant scientist, Freeza caressing balls, etc. Some of the voices and acting are fantastic (the best voices of Goku, Piccolo, Gohan, and Bulma come from this era), but others are bad (Tien, Freeza) or immersion breaking (listen to how many background characters are voiced by Terry Klassen with an accent).

While it's not "step into the GRAND TOUR" levels of cringe, the Americanization of Z to create this "hardcore" fanbase started here and led to the divided American vs. everyone else fandom that still exists today, such that despite over a decade of more accurate dubbing from FUNi, fans still call Kai an objectively bad dub or demand Faulconer music be added to Super. But again the Saban/Ocean dub is a byproduct of its time period, and this era is the reason I started watching Z in the first place. Plus, the Pioneer-led dubs of the first 3 movies are still the best Dragon Ball product ever dubbed and are the only way I can watch those movies dubbed.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:47 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: I can't seem to get into the Blue Water dub, though. I don't know why it's so hard for me. I think a lot of the voice actors chosen were no worse, if not better, than Funimation's but for some reason, it's hard for me to sit through.
I think its the sound quality. Like they couldn’t afford good audio equipment or something. There’s something very amateurish of the Blue Water dub even with the voices I like.
So what would your guys' "all-star" voice roster be (if you could only pick out of the English-speaking dubs' talent pool)?
Goku: Barbara Goodson (as a child) Ian Corlette (as an adult)

Bulma: Lalaina Lindjberg

Yamcha: Chris Sabat

Oolong: Bryan Massey

Master Roshi: Mike Macfarland I guess

Krillin: Whoever was the Blue Water voice in DB I guess for both child and adult

Gohan: Saffron Henderson as a child Brad Swaile for high school student Kyle Hebert as an adult

Piccolo: Scott Mcneil

Chi Chi: Lauren Bailey as a child . Ocean VA for adult

Vegeta: Brian Drummond

Shen long: Don Brown

Too lazy for the rest

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:56 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:35 pm
I'm thoroughly enjoying watching this spliced version of the Ocean dub together with the Funimation version that's been overlayed on the Dragon Box.

Overall, I love watching the Westwood dub -- flaws and all. Yeah, the music thing sucks and yeah, delivery is wonky, but I still get a kick out of it. I find a lot of enjoyment out the returning cast, but feel like they dropped the ball on a lot of the new roles (even if an old cast member did the voice, like Bobbidi, for example).

I can't seem to get into the Blue Water dub, though. I don't know why it's so hard for me. I think a lot of the voice actors chosen were no worse, if not better, than Funimation's but for some reason, it's hard for me to sit through.

But I'm of the mindset that the more dubs, the merrier. While I do want new fans to be exposed to an accurate portrayal of the series, I've seen it many times, so I'll gladly take the weird, quirky alternative alongside (not instead of) the original.

So what would your guys' "all-star" voice roster be (if you could only pick out of the English-speaking dubs' talent pool)? I feel bad that Sabat really made great strides in his performances, but I'd pick Ocean Piccolo, Vegeta, and Yamucha over his. People say that Drummond isn't a good fit for the later version of Vegeta, but I know that he has the ability to. I don't even think that he was bad in the Westwood dub, and I always felt that he kind of sounded like Ryō Horikawa (particularly when yelling). I remember thinking, "I guess they did an accurate job with Vegeta" when first exposed to the Japanese voice cast through The Great Dragon Ball Legend.

Goku - Schemmel
Gohan - Henderson (kid). Hebert and Swaile are both fine as adult.
Goten - Edwards, I guess, although with better direction, Michaels would be great.
Vegeta - Drummond, but using something like his Zechs voice.
Piccolo - McNeil
Trunks - Sean Chiplock from the Bang Zoom dub.
Krillin - Strait
Tenshinhan - Brandon Hunter over John "Mr. Blandness" Burgmeier.
Yamcha - Cole
Frieza - Ayres
Cell - Clarke
Bulma - Rial
Roshi - Ed Marcus. Actually sounds like an old man instead of trying to sound like one. Authenticity, people.
Androids - Funimation guys
Buu - They're all awful, but McNeil could do the part justice more than Josh "I suck on helium to do my Buu voice" Martin.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:09 pm

I don't hate it but I don't necessarily like it either. 100% out of preference though, nothing to discredit the actors. The music though was just lame to me. It's not even music, just noise.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:28 pm

I mean, they have their flaws, but so do all Dragon Ball dubs, but I would still say there's a lot to like in the Ocean Group dubs. I personally grew up with them, and I have a lot of nostalgia for many of the voices and the music, although I would still recommend them.

I find both the Saban and Westwood dubs to be overall superior products to the in-house Funimation dubs with their respective replacement scores. The castings are mostly superior, other than Schemmel, who I think despite having a rough start ended up being the best Goku once he got around to doing the Boo arc and anything from 2005 onwards. The Wasserman score was vastly superior to Johnson's score, which was quite bland. The Anitunes score took some time to find it's feet, but it fit the goofy, mythical feel of Dragon Ball far more than Faulconer ever did.

The use of Kikuchi is a bonus for the remastered dubs but that track is severely held back by the voices, which leave a lot to be desired, and the inconsistency with Sabat redubbing his lines while other cast members didn't. It just feels really jarring and out of place when you know the voices are spliced from two different productions that were made for different times. Ocean's dubs at least knew what they wanted to be and didn't make half hearted attempts at course correcting.

The Pioneer movie dubs were damn near perfect, and the right way to utilize Kikuchi's score as it is a product clearly made with the intention of being as close to the Japanese version as possible. Shame those dubs weren't included as extra audio tracks on the home releases as their existence makes the in-house redubs of those movies rather irrelevant.

Funimation obviously made an attempt to improve their product the right way with Kai by starting fresh. It will certainly be interesting to see how Ocean did in their attempt once we finally see their Kai dub.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:16 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:47 pm
TheGreatness25 wrote: I can't seem to get into the Blue Water dub, though. I don't know why it's so hard for me. I think a lot of the voice actors chosen were no worse, if not better, than Funimation's but for some reason, it's hard for me to sit through.
I think its the sound quality. Like they couldn’t afford good audio equipment or something. There’s something very amateurish of the Blue Water dub even with the voices I like.
Don't be silly. They're a professional studio who used professional equipment. It's the quality of the recordings, that's all. Good-quality captures have very high sound quality.

I'd say a lot of the reason people can't get behind it is that usually you're either used to the Vancouver cast or the Texas cast, meanwhile the Calgary cast is just... Odd to hear. Particularly since, unlike Funimation's cast of people who started out doing impressions of the Vancouver cast (some of which still sound like that to this day; Schemmel's Kaio and Goku are still basically impressions of Don Brown and Ian Corlett in tone), a large portion of the Blue Water castings are entirely different takes (though there are some impressions, which are pretty spot-on; their Kaio and Goku sound just like Ocean's from the end of Z). And they did make some poor casting choices for some series mainstays (Vegeta, for instance) who didn't show up much in Blue Water's dubbing, but whose presence via a rather iffy casting can put some people off.
But the direction is rather poor too, so a lot of the delivery is quite flat, similar to early Funi DB where you have Stephanie Nadolny and Tiffany Vollmer trying to hold together a scene...

So, a lot of people just can't get into it. Oh well. Blue Water was always basically a poor man's Ocean anyway; the Calgary studio was opened because its union rules were less tight, so they could get away with paying their actors less than the Vancouver guys. Basically it was the in-house Funi cast move all over again... :roll:
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:35 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:18 pm
In theory, this kinda makes sense... But the TV versions of the Pioneer movies didn't use alternate lines or anything like that
Did the versions of Dead Zone and World’s Strongest Funimation use for the Rock the Dragon set differ from how they aired on Toonami?

Because that’s how it aired on Toonami. The 3 parter in the middle of the Namek saga was how it aired in syndication. Toonami showed the Saban approved tv version as a single movie instead of using an edited version of the Pioneer release.

Funimation was marketing the set to how it was seen on Toonami. The 53 episodes and the three movies with the first two being edited for content and the third being the tv version edited as a movie
Not sure about Dead Zone & World's Strongest. But either way, the first two episodes of Z for sure aren't how they aired on Toonami; the first two episodes had their references to death taken out for all reruns, including the Toonami run. This can be explained somewhat loosely by factoring in that the stated intention was always to present the show as it was originally syndicated in 1996-1997, but I don't think those movies ever aired in syndication; I'm fairly sure they were done direct-to-video, then eventually the TV versions aired on Toonami?
And the picture is super washed out and blurry in a way it never was at any point at all on TV, so...

To me, it's quite simple: It's a home video release, there's no real reason not to use the uncut versions, especially since the only difference in the content for the edited versions is a few scenes were cut (no paint edits, no variant lines, etc., they just literally cut two short sequences), so it's always struck me as a justifiable but ultimately stupid decision. Including Saban's movie 3 makes sense, but they should've included both versions. This is a collectors' set, you might as well make it complete.
Minor gripes, sure, but these combined with the major issues, and tons of other minor issues throughout, it all really adds up to an honestly pretty shit box set.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:35 pm
We might as well ask why Funimation redubbed those movies in the first place. When they went back and redubbed the first 67 episodes and first Dragon Ball movie and the first 13 episodes of Dragon Ball at least that made sense. But those movies were already dubbed uncut and all Funimation did was censor them more (using replacement music, removing uses of hell in the dialog not using Gohan’s songs or head cha la even with the Japanese score). Literally no reason to do it other than to stroke off their cast by making sure they replaced everything the Ocean cast had done.
No, they are distinct questions, and Funi had good reason to redub those movies; at that time, they were aiming to have a consistent cast for all their released material. But this doesn't explain in any way why they didn't include the Ocean dubs on the uncut releases of those first three movies. There really is no reason to exclude them.
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:35 pm
I'm thoroughly enjoying watching this spliced version of the Ocean dub together with the Funimation version that's been overlayed on the Dragon Box.
Heh. Different strokes for different folks. Personally, I find switches in voices and music too jarring to get behind anything like that. :lol:
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:35 pm
But I'm of the mindset that the more dubs, the merrier. While I do want new fans to be exposed to an accurate portrayal of the series, I've seen it many times, so I'll gladly take the weird, quirky alternative alongside (not instead of) the original.
Agreed.
Though remember, Ocean was never a weird, quirky alternative. It is certainly an alternative, but Funimation and Ocean always used the same scripts for Z, and for DB & GT, Blue Water used scripts that were more accurate. And Westwood Z at least has a tone much closer to the original than Funi's dub of that material. But ultimately for Z it is a game of splitting hairs, same for OG DB; both dubs are inaccurate and censored, it's just a matter of finding enjoyment in either or both versions. And I think, as you note, there's plenty of room for both dubs to be appreciated. :)
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:28 pm
Agreed 100%. :thumbup:
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:35 pm
So what would your guys' "all-star" voice roster be (if you could only pick out of the English-speaking dubs' talent pool)? I feel bad that Sabat really made great strides in his performances, but I'd pick Ocean Piccolo, Vegeta, and Yamucha over his. People say that Drummond isn't a good fit for the later version of Vegeta, but I know that he has the ability to. I don't even think that he was bad in the Westwood dub, and I always felt that he kind of sounded like Ryō Horikawa (particularly when yelling). I remember thinking, "I guess they did an accurate job with Vegeta" when first exposed to the Japanese voice cast through The Great Dragon Ball Legend.
Personally, I always thought it was utterly stupid that so many people -- mostly just Americans -- say "Drummond was good for the Saiyan & early Namek stuff, Sabat was good for the rest", because of course you'll think the cast members you saw for particular periods were best for the periods you saw them in!! That's not a considered opinion, that's just you enjoying the stuff you've seen for what it is, and either not giving the other stuff a chance, or assuming from the fact you didn't enjoy that stuff that Drummond just can't do X thing very well or Sabat can't do Y thing very well. So, I always thought that take was stupid.

Anyway, as for an all-star roster...
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:43 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:16 pm

Not sure about Dead Zone & World's Strongest. But either way, the first two episodes of Z for sure aren't how they aired on Toonami; the first two episodes had their references to death taken out for all reruns, including the Toonami run. This can be explained somewhat loosely by factoring in that the stated intention was always to present the show as it was originally syndicated in 1996-1997, but I don't think those movies ever aired in syndication; I'm fairly sure they were done direct-to-video, then eventually the TV versions aired on Toonami?

Again they were pushing this as a Toonami thing

https://youtu.be/4HYgAydD6D0

Notice them calling it the original Toonami broadcast

What They Say:
HFIL has frozen over, and your wish has been granted. Now get ready to Rock the Dragon like it’s 1996!

FUNimation is busting open the vault and finally unleashing what fans have sought for so long: the original Toonami broadcast version of Dragonball Z! This ultimate fanboy release features the legendary Ocean dub and the long lost alternative score penned by famed composed Shuki Levy (Inspector Gadget, Power Rangers). This is the Dragonball Z you watched while eating your afterschool snack, the anime phenomenon that helped launch Cartoon Network, and an essential piece of your Dragonball Z collection. No one else in the world has this, and you can’t live without it. Celebrate 15 years of Dragonball Z in North America by kicked your cred into the stratosphere of super fandom! You never really wanted to grow up – isn’t it time for feel like a kid again?
No idea if the Toonami aired episodes lacked the original airing of the Raditz episodes but wouldn’t surprised me if Funimation just screwed the pooch on that one (they seemed to forget that DBZ started on Toonami in 1998 not 1996 whoops)


To me, it's quite simple: It's a home video release, there's no real reason not to use the uncut versions, especially since the only difference in the content for the edited versions is a few scenes were cut (no paint edits, no variant lines, etc., they just literally cut two short sequences), so it's always struck me as a justifiable but ultimately stupid decision. Including Saban's movie 3 makes sense, but they should've included both versions. This is a collectors' set, you might as well make it complete.
Minor gripes, sure, but these combined with the major issues, and tons of other minor issues throughout, it all really adds up to an honestly pretty shit box set.
I agree that they should have used the uncut version of the three movies but as they were marketing this as “Remember original English Dragon Ball Z on Toonami!!!’ It’s over 9000!!!!”! they went with the Cartoon Network versions of the movies

Can we just agree Funimation just didn’t do a good job with this set regardless of their intentions?
No, they are distinct questions, and Funi had good reason to redub those movies; at that time, they were aiming to have a consistent cast for all their released material.

*eyes Sleeping Princess at Devil’s castle and Mystic Adventure*

[quoteHeh. Different strokes for different folks. Personally, I find switches in voices and music too jarring to get behind anything like that. :lol:
[/quote]

Is there a different version? If it’s the one I’m thinking of there is no switched in voiced and music it’s the Ocean audio and Saban music over the corresponding Dragon Box footage excluding title card and eye catches. It’s edited but uncensored (missing scenes are still missing but no paint jobs)
Personally, I always thought it was utterly stupid that so many people -- mostly just Americans -- say "Drummond was good for the Saiyan & early Namek stuff, Sabat was good for the rest", because of course you'll think the cast members you saw for particular periods were best for the periods you saw them in!! That's not a considered opinion, that's just you enjoying the stuff you've seen for what it is, and either not giving the other stuff a chance, or assuming from the fact you didn't enjoy that stuff that Drummond just can't do X thing very well or Sabat can't do Y thing very well. So, I always thought that take was stupid.
It’s a particularly stupid take because Sabat was doing a Drummond impression well into the Android saga. Even with Sabat re-doing the Freeza and Garlic stuff they still use his original Drummond impersonating voice for the Android stuff.

So Brian Drummond only fit Vegeta until halfway through Namek and then a guy doing a piss poor impersonation was just better casted....

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