Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Arteaga4K » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:15 pm

My only memories of that dub are the first 53 episodes. Having said that, the funimation cast is what I started with so any other english dub is going to be a little weird to me personally, but I do love Piccolo and Vegeta's voices. My biggest gripe though is the heavy censorship
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:52 pm

One thing I’ll say about Brian Drummond; while I have harped on his Vegeta voice before, I actually do think he has a pretty good bad guy voice. I just don’t think it’s entirely fitting for Vegeta in particular. I think he would’ve made a pretty good Cell, though.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:09 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:17 pm I could've sworn that I've heard both Brian Drummond and Peter Kelamis say that they didn't record in order and am almost 100% that at least Drummond said that he had no idea what Vegeta even looked like until the series aired, which is why his early voice was so high.

Well, in either event, the director has a lot to do with it lol
Dunno about Drummond and Kelamis saying anything about recording, but I am 100% certain Drummond saw Vegeta when recording. Because this is how dubbing works: You see the visuals, and you try to match those visuals. They usually get to see a scene play through once, then they take a swing at it, probably don't get it quite right first time, and they keep going until they get a delivery that fits well enough to the visuals.

It is entirely true that Drummond didn't see Vegeta when he auditioned, yes, and he based his voice off the description of a renegade space pirate prince, fairly short, sort of a counterpart to Nappa, the big brute... He based the voice off this description, and then as recording went on, he evolved the voice and the character to fit the material as he read it, as he was told it, and as he saw it (because of course, he'd see how the visuals evolved as he dubbed the show).

But yeah, as you say, the director is very important regardless.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Valerius Dover » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:32 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:42 am
In the Saban days, at the very least, the actors DEFINITELY heard the original Japanese to reference for delivery, emotion, etc. Funi's in-house actors definitely didn't hear the Japanese side until they were working on Budokai 1, but the Vancouver actors heard the original. And generally, the way they tell it, they recorded their lines in order, generally they'd go through an episode or two (or three or four on a really fast-working day), do all their lines in one go (sometimes they'd make a note of any screams and go back and do those last), and then go home. But they wouldn't hear any of the other actors, they wouldn't have any context for their own lines (all they were given was their own lines), so the director still had a pretty big job on their hands.

As for early vs late Z in the Vancouver cast; better to compare their work in the late Saban run to the early Westwood run. By the time they got into the later stuff, they sorted a lot of the kinks out; their work on the Boo arc was mostly pretty great. It's just the Cell arc, particularly the early stuff, where they had trouble.
Pioneer movies aside, where did you hear this? This seems contrary to how most heavily altered dubs were done at the time. On the other hand, it would explain why Chi-Chi could be heard humming Kikuchi's Gohan theme in an early episode.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:49 pm

Valerius Dover wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:32 pm
Robo4900 wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:42 am
In the Saban days, at the very least, the actors DEFINITELY heard the original Japanese to reference for delivery, emotion, etc. Funi's in-house actors definitely didn't hear the Japanese side until they were working on Budokai 1, but the Vancouver actors heard the original. And generally, the way they tell it, they recorded their lines in order, generally they'd go through an episode or two (or three or four on a really fast-working day), do all their lines in one go (sometimes they'd make a note of any screams and go back and do those last), and then go home. But they wouldn't hear any of the other actors, they wouldn't have any context for their own lines (all they were given was their own lines), so the director still had a pretty big job on their hands.

As for early vs late Z in the Vancouver cast; better to compare their work in the late Saban run to the early Westwood run. By the time they got into the later stuff, they sorted a lot of the kinks out; their work on the Boo arc was mostly pretty great. It's just the Cell arc, particularly the early stuff, where they had trouble.
Pioneer movies aside, where did you hear this? This seems contrary to how most heavily altered dubs were done at the time. On the other hand, it would explain why Chi-Chi could be heard humming Kikuchi's Gohan theme in an early episode.
Ian Corlett said he only checked the Japanese version when a translation wasn’t making sense.

Peter Kelamis said he’s seen the Japanese version when recording and commented on seeing Goku’s bare ass (this was before visually uncensored DBZ was the norm for North America) he also commented on he would never be able to make his voice go as high as the Japanese version.

It seemed the Ocean cast had the Japanese version for reference but didn’t necessarily rely on for recording.

I never did understand how Funimation cast only had the Spanish dub to work with. Was Funimation just being cheap and lazy? Let’s cut cost by using our own cheap recording studio instead of an experience group of voice actors, lets hire our own cheap composer. Lets work off the Spanish dub to save money blah blah blah

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:49 pm

Valerius Dover wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:32 pm
Robo4900 wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:42 am
In the Saban days, at the very least, the actors DEFINITELY heard the original Japanese to reference for delivery, emotion, etc. Funi's in-house actors definitely didn't hear the Japanese side until they were working on Budokai 1, but the Vancouver actors heard the original. And generally, the way they tell it, they recorded their lines in order, generally they'd go through an episode or two (or three or four on a really fast-working day), do all their lines in one go (sometimes they'd make a note of any screams and go back and do those last), and then go home. But they wouldn't hear any of the other actors, they wouldn't have any context for their own lines (all they were given was their own lines), so the director still had a pretty big job on their hands.

As for early vs late Z in the Vancouver cast; better to compare their work in the late Saban run to the early Westwood run. By the time they got into the later stuff, they sorted a lot of the kinks out; their work on the Boo arc was mostly pretty great. It's just the Cell arc, particularly the early stuff, where they had trouble.
Pioneer movies aside, where did you hear this? This seems contrary to how most heavily altered dubs were done at the time. On the other hand, it would explain why Chi-Chi could be heard humming Kikuchi's Gohan theme in an early episode.
Ian Corlett said he only checked the Japanese version when a translation wasn’t making sense.

Peter Kelamis said he’s seen the Japanese version when recording and commented on seeing Goku’s bare ass (this was before visually uncensored DBZ was the norm for North America) he also commented on he would never be able to make his voice go as high as the Japanese version.

It seemed the Ocean cast had the Japanese version for reference but didn’t necessarily rely on for recording.

I never did understand how Funimation cast only had the Spanish dub to work with. Was Funimation just being cheap and lazy? Let’s cut cost by using our own cheap recording studio instead of an experience group of voice actors, lets hire our own cheap composer. Lets work off the Spanish dub to save money blah blah blah

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:14 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:49 pm I never did understand how Funimation cast only had the Spanish dub to work with. Was Funimation just being cheap and lazy? Let’s cut cost by using our own cheap recording studio instead of an experience group of voice actors, lets hire our own cheap composer. Lets work off the Spanish dub to save money blah blah blah
It's because it was cheaper to import tapes from Mexico than Japan. So their only reference was the Latin American dub that was already on the tapes.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:15 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:14 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:49 pm I never did understand how Funimation cast only had the Spanish dub to work with. Was Funimation just being cheap and lazy? Let’s cut cost by using our own cheap recording studio instead of an experience group of voice actors, lets hire our own cheap composer. Lets work off the Spanish dub to save money blah blah blah
It's because it was cheaper to import tapes from Mexico than Japan. So their only reference was the Latin American dub that was already on the tapes.

So that’s a yes on Funimation being cheap and lazy

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:27 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:15 pm So that’s a yes on Funimation being cheap and lazy
This is a fantastic, accurate, all-purpose quote, and I may steal it in future.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:42 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:49 pm Peter Kelamis said he’s seen the Japanese version when recording and commented on seeing Goku’s bare ass (this was before visually uncensored DBZ was the norm for North America) he also commented on he would never be able to make his voice go as high as the Japanese version.
Not surprised to hear my man Pete was watching the Japanese version. Probably helped him to channel Nozawa and inhabit the character so well.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:52 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:42 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:49 pm Peter Kelamis said he’s seen the Japanese version when recording and commented on seeing Goku’s bare ass (this was before visually uncensored DBZ was the norm for North America) he also commented on he would never be able to make his voice go as high as the Japanese version.
Not surprised to hear my man Pete was watching the Japanese version. Probably helped him to channel Nozawa and inhabit the character so well.
I certainly believe he was deliberately channeling Nozawa when doing the Kaio-Ken screams in movie 2

Anywhere else...eh

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:26 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:52 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:42 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:49 pm Peter Kelamis said he’s seen the Japanese version when recording and commented on seeing Goku’s bare ass (this was before visually uncensored DBZ was the norm for North America) he also commented on he would never be able to make his voice go as high as the Japanese version.
Not surprised to hear my man Pete was watching the Japanese version. Probably helped him to channel Nozawa and inhabit the character so well.
I certainly believe he was deliberately channeling Nozawa when doing the Kaio-Ken screams in movie 2

Anywhere else...eh
He never sounded like her, but his take had a certain goofy, aloofness to it that feels authentic to Nozawa's portrayal.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:00 am

https://twitter.com/BrianDrummondVO/sta ... 4290785280

Drummond said here that he DID hear Horikawa before he recorded. Honestly, in a more accurate dub, he'd be closer to him than Sabat.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:40 am

8000 Saiyan wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:00 am https://twitter.com/BrianDrummondVO/sta ... 4290785280

Drummond said here that he DID hear Horikawa before he recorded. Honestly, in a more accurate dub, he'd be closer to him than Sabat.

Horikawa talks like a normal guy with confidence. Drummond’s Vegeta was Saturday Morning Cartoon villain (I mean he technically was) Sabat’s Vegeta is former chainsmoker trying to quit.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:46 am

To be fair to Drummond, he does that version of Vegeta really REALLY well.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by 90sDBZ » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:06 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:15 pm So that’s a yes on Funimation being cheap and lazy
Actually there was an interview were Sabat said they did get tapes of the Japanese version, but they were of terrible sound quality which made them use the Spanish tapes instead. I'm pretty sure he said that in his interview with Geekdom anyway.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:05 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:46 am To be fair to Drummond, he does that version of Vegeta really REALLY well.
That’s not a knock on Drummond. He was directed to play a Saturday Morning cartoon villain for an inoffensive kids syndicated saturday morning action cartoon and he did it really well.

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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:41 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:06 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:15 pm So that’s a yes on Funimation being cheap and lazy
Actually there was an interview were Sabat said they did get tapes of the Japanese version, but they were of terrible sound quality which made them use the Spanish tapes instead. I'm pretty sure he said that in his interview with Geekdom anyway.
No, that's what he said about the original Japanese music, as a reason for why they replaced the score. He also said the quality of their translations from the Japanese scripts were pretty bad too.
He's outright said several times that the language track on their tapes was always Spanish, and unless they went to a convention and heard a fansub, they never heard the Japanese performances until they were dubbing Budoukai 1.
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:05 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:46 am To be fair to Drummond, he does that version of Vegeta really REALLY well.
That’s not a knock on Drummond. He was directed to play a Saturday Morning cartoon villain for an inoffensive kids syndicated saturday morning action cartoon and he did it really well.
Indeed. Thing is, Drummond is a great actor. And he does demonstrate this in several scenes later on (his speech admitting Goku is the best, for instance. Or the scene where he faces the fact that Goku is dead in the Cell arc). And I'm sure we'll see him really show that off when Ocean Kai finally airs. Even though he does a slightly cartoony character voice, he's a great actor, and if the material he's given has nuance, he'll play to it. And he has, often. Even with the rushed pace and direction of the Westwood dubs, he knew Vegeta was a mellowing-out/mellowed-out villain with a lot of anger and resentment in him, and he did great at playing to that.

Ask any fan of Transformers or Ben 10 about cartoony voices; just because there's a saturday morning cartoon vibe to the voice, doesn't mean the actor can't give a very real, very impactful, nuanced performance.

... Though, I'll say this: Anyone who seriously thinks Vegeta's voice in the Japanese version isn't an exaggerated character voice is utterly kidding themself. :P
There's a lot of subtlety in his performance, like any great voice actor, but he's doing an exaggerated, cartoony character voice. Just like Masako Nozawa, and the voices of Roshi, Freeza, the two Piccolos, Cell, Nappa, Raditz, etc.
It's just a different brand of cartoony exaggeration; the kind that Japanese voice actors tend to do. Meanwhile, the English voice actors do a more western style of cartoon voice.

So, in case anyone's not clear: "Cartoon voices" are not a bad thing, and any voice actor worth their salt will be able to perform with subtlety and depth even with the craziest, weirdest cartoon voice. That's literally the basis of their entire craft; creating characters, characters who sound and feel different, but are all real-feeling personalities.
As Scott McNeil has often said at panels when asked how he started out doing voices: Mel Blanc never, ever created a voice. He created characters. And the character begat a voice. Bugs Bunny and Yosemete Sam aren't voices, they're characters.

I see a lot of people shittalk the Ocean cast saying "they're cartoony voices. why does piccolo sound like wolverine?" and other such shit, so I felt this needed to be said. Unless a celebrity has been hired to do their voice, any cartoon voice performance in English will have a western cartoon sensibility to it, and any talk of that being something Ocean got particularly wrong either in comparison to the original or to Funi is just crazy to me.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:18 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:41 pm I see a lot of people shittalk the Ocean cast saying "they're cartoony voices. why does piccolo sound like wolverine?" and other such shit, so I felt this needed to be said.
Next to no one, even those critical of the dub have anything bad to say about Scott McNeil.
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Re: Personal Thoughts on the Ocean Dub

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:33 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:18 pm
Robo4900 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:41 pm I see a lot of people shittalk the Ocean cast saying "they're cartoony voices. why does piccolo sound like wolverine?" and other such shit, so I felt this needed to be said.
Next to no one, even those critical of the dub have anything bad to say about Scott McNeil.
That's a very specific counter to one example I gave of a much broader point, and frankly, I can't be bothered to counter it fully, so I'll just say my experience tells me otherwise.
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