My biggest issue with Super

[ABED]

The flaw in the analogy is that Goku doesn't face a plethora of characters exponentially stronger between the time he faced both Piccolos.

[KBABZ]

but Uub wasn't equal to Kid Buu. He had Buu's potential, Goku fights him in base(back when base was not god like) that should say he is no where near Kid Buu level of power

Right, because Dragon Ball is FAMOUS for having characters stick to a singular stated value of power for all their lives.

C'mon man! Goku starts out as "quite resilient to gunshots" and grows into one of the strongest characters in the omniverse. His increasing strength is entirely applicable to his base power because any new forms he picks up are multiplying that. Super Saiyan is x50, not "jump to 50,000". So it follows that Base Goku at the End of Z is infinitely stronger than Base Goku at, say, the start of the Saiyan arc. He could face Cell in his base form at that point because he just doesn't let up on the training, and most certainly wouldn't have stopped in the timeskip after the Buu arc.

And then Uub shows up and gives Goku a good run for his money! As an untrained child! That would be EXTREMELY exciting for Goku to meet someone who has that much untapped potential, because he gets to be a teacher and have an amazing rival to fight in the future.

[Tai Lung]

I sort of started this to talk about some issues with Super not out of hate just to chat with people. I am for the most part just talking about the anime because the problem is far greater there then the manga. Dragon Ball Super....

before you could say this but now it is quite wrong ...

[Mad Swami]

but Uub wasn't equal to Kid Buu. He had Buu's potential, Goku fights him in base(back when base was not god like) that should say he is no where near Kid Buu level of power

Right, because Dragon Ball is FAMOUS for having characters stick to a singular stated value of power for all their lives.

C'mon man! Goku starts out as "quite resilient to gunshots" and grows into one of the strongest characters in the omniverse. His increasing strength is entirely applicable to his base power because any new forms he picks up are multiplying that. Super Saiyan is x50, not "jump to 50,000". So it follows that Base Goku at the End of Z is infinitely stronger than Base Goku at, say, the start of the Saiyan arc. He could face Cell in his base form at that point because he just doesn't let up on the training, and most certainly wouldn't have stopped in the timeskip after the Buu arc.

And then Uub shows up and gives Goku a good run for his money! As an untrained child! That would be EXTREMELY exciting for Goku to meet someone who has that much untapped potential, because he gets to be a teacher and have an amazing rival to fight in the future.

I disagree. Goku end of Z never reaches billions that's crazy. He reaches like higher millions but even then not hundred millions. Nothing says that he would be Cell level in base

[Mad Swami]

I sort of started this to talk about some issues with Super not out of hate just to chat with people. I am for the most part just talking about the anime because the problem is far greater there then the manga. Dragon Ball Super....

before you could say this but now it is quite wrong ...

Haven't caught up in the manga. Have they confirmed god bases or something? what happened?

[goku the krump dancer]

The flaw in the analogy is that Goku doesn't face a plethora of characters exponentially stronger between the time he faced both Piccolos.

True, it makes the whole reveal seem pretty forced.

[KBABZ]

I disagree. Goku end of Z never reaches billions that's crazy. He reaches like higher millions but even then not hundred millions. Nothing says that he would be Cell level in base

Probably a good time to mention that, in the span of six weeks of gravity training and a Zenkai healing session, Goku goes from just barely being able to fend off Vegeta at 8,000+ to starting a fight with Final Form Frieza at 3,000,000.

DBZ Reddit Power Level Arguement Math:

Spoiler:

8,000 to 3,000,000 is a 375x increase, which Goku achieved in six days. If he really worked at it, Goku could increase his battle power by 228,175x in the ten year timeskip after the Buu arc. If Goku was in the "higher millions" of, say, 75,000,000 as you say, then if he kept up his Namek training regime during the ten years he could theoretically hit a level of 17,109,375,000,000 by the time he meets Uub, just over 17 quadrillion.

So the story would hardly have to bend over backwards to make End of Z Goku be on par with Cell if he just trained as he normally does.

[Vijay]

Dude....I downloaded the entire series....and deleted them...outta sheer boredom...only bleach has ever made me do that...

I don't wish to bash the series, cuz it's been done multiple time before. I simply feel right from plot to character designs (beerus, jiren, Zeno) to single dimensional one-note baddies to juvenile humor to pathetic fights, it doesn't impress as other regular shounen does. Inconsistency is one thing. But utterly problematic animation team/storyboaders, meme worthy artworks & flawed execution of BOG/ROF in the series....there's just so much to talk about

[Alruneia]

Probably a good time to mention that, in the span of six days of gravity training and a Zenkai healing session, Goku goes from just barely being able to fend off Vegeta at 8,000+ to starting a fight with Final Form Frieza at 3,000,000.

As far as the gravity training Goku went through on the way to Namek goes, I'd say there's nothing really wrong there. I don't remember how much of this was in the manga, but in the anime, he trained his way up to 100x gravity, which is 10x what he was previously used to (from King Kai's planet), and his power went from somewhere over 8,000 to 90,000 (a 10x or 11x increase). That's surprisingly consistent for Dragon Ball. It's a bit quick, perhaps, but he had some beans.
But yeah, he then zenkais to hell and back from the fight with Ginyu and goes from 90,000 to 3,000,000, which is approximately a 33x increase. (If you take the 3m guidebook number as true, that is.) If pre-Ginyu Goku went Super Saiyan, post-Ginyu Goku could beat him with the regular Kaioken. Dragon Ball and numbers just generally don't make a good pair.

[KBABZ]

Probably a good time to mention that, in the span of six days of gravity training and a Zenkai healing session, Goku goes from just barely being able to fend off Vegeta at 8,000+ to starting a fight with Final Form Frieza at 3,000,000.

As far as the gravity training Goku went through on the way to Namek goes, I'd say there's nothing really wrong there. I don't remember how much of this was in the manga, but in the anime, he trained his way up to 100x gravity, which is 10x what he was previously used to (from King Kai's planet), and his power went from somewhere over 8,000 to 90,000 (a 10x or 11x increase). That's surprisingly consistent for Dragon Ball. It's a bit quick, perhaps, but he had some beans.
But yeah, he then zenkais to hell and back from the fight with Ginyu and goes from 90,000 to 3,000,000, which is approximately a 33x increase. (If you take the 3m guidebook number as true, that is.) If pre-Ginyu Goku went Super Saiyan, post-Ginyu Goku could beat him with the regular Kaioken. Dragon Ball and numbers just generally don't make a good pair.

No they don't, but I used that to illustrate how the characters would be able to surpass old challenges to the point that they become easy, which only magnifies Uub's incredible potential growth as a fighter and why Goku would be so excited to take him under his wing at the end of the show.

[ABED]

Probably a good time to mention that, in the span of six days of gravity training and a Zenkai healing session, Goku goes from just barely being able to fend off Vegeta at 8,000+ to starting a fight with Final Form Frieza at 3,000,000.

As far as the gravity training Goku went through on the way to Namek goes, I'd say there's nothing really wrong there. I don't remember how much of this was in the manga, but in the anime, he trained his way up to 100x gravity, which is 10x what he was previously used to (from King Kai's planet), and his power went from somewhere over 8,000 to 90,000 (a 10x or 11x increase). That's surprisingly consistent for Dragon Ball. It's a bit quick, perhaps, but he had some beans.
But yeah, he then zenkais to hell and back from the fight with Ginyu and goes from 90,000 to 3,000,000, which is approximately a 33x increase. (If you take the 3m guidebook number as true, that is.) If pre-Ginyu Goku went Super Saiyan, post-Ginyu Goku could beat him with the regular Kaioken. Dragon Ball and numbers just generally don't make a good pair.

No they don't, but I used that to illustrate how the characters would be able to surpass old challenges to the point that they become easy, which only magnifies Uub's incredible potential growth as a fighter and why Goku would be so excited to take him under his wing at the end of the show.

I get your point but it still feels very forced. I don't think the writers would've felt the need to add that bit of lore concerning Uub if they didn't see how Super messed with the meaning of the original ending.

[KBABZ]

I get your point but it still feels very forced. I don't think the writers would've felt the need to add that bit of lore concerning Uub if they didn't see how Super messed with the meaning of the original ending.

I don't understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?

[ABED]

They writers included a scene in Super that talked about god ki and Buu, but why do that for any other reason than to explain why the ending with Uub can still take on the same meaning?

[KBABZ]

They writers included a scene in Super that talked about god ki and Buu, but why do that for any other reason than to explain why the ending with Uub can still take on the same meaning?

Huh. I haven't watched Super yet so this is the first I've heard of it.

[Mad Swami]

I disagree. Goku end of Z never reaches billions that's crazy. He reaches like higher millions but even then not hundred millions. Nothing says that he would be Cell level in base

Probably a good time to mention that, in the span of six weeks of gravity training and a Zenkai healing session, Goku goes from just barely being able to fend off Vegeta at 8,000+ to starting a fight with Final Form Frieza at 3,000,000.

DBZ Reddit Power Level Arguement Math:

Spoiler:

8,000 to 3,000,000 is a 375x increase, which Goku achieved in six days. If he really worked at it, Goku could increase his battle power by 228,175x in the ten year timeskip after the Buu arc. If Goku was in the "higher millions" of, say, 75,000,000 as you say, then if he kept up his Namek training regime during the ten years he could theoretically hit a level of 17,109,375,000,000 by the time he meets Uub, just over 17 quadrillion.

So the story would hardly have to bend over backwards to make End of Z Goku be on par with Cell if he just trained as he normally does.

Ok wrong. Goku training over six weeks goes from 10,000(probably increased after vsing Vegeta) to 90,000. Then over the course of the Namek saga he receives Zenkais and eventually reaches 3,000,000. However that was back when Zenkais were predominant and Goku improved his base. After obtaining Super Saiyan zenkais faded and his base was neglected slightly. Super manga mentions the zenkai thing and Super as a whole addresses Goku's base not being that strong

[ABED]

Goku's journey to Namek was only a couple days, 6 if I recall.

[Dbzfan94]

My biggest issues are Goku's characterization, Vegeta getting same "development" over and over since the Buu saga. And since those two take up 95% of the screentime, it becomes incredibly grating. Also the forms are just recolors, and the fact that show is practically been reduced to all nostalgia/fanservice marketing now.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I disagree. Goku end of Z never reaches billions that's crazy. He reaches like higher millions but even then not hundred millions. Nothing says that he would be Cell level in base

Probably a good time to mention that, in the span of six weeks of gravity training and a Zenkai healing session, Goku goes from just barely being able to fend off Vegeta at 8,000+ to starting a fight with Final Form Frieza at 3,000,000.

DBZ Reddit Power Level Arguement Math:

Spoiler:

8,000 to 3,000,000 is a 375x increase, which Goku achieved in six days. If he really worked at it, Goku could increase his battle power by 228,175x in the ten year timeskip after the Buu arc. If Goku was in the "higher millions" of, say, 75,000,000 as you say, then if he kept up his Namek training regime during the ten years he could theoretically hit a level of 17,109,375,000,000 by the time he meets Uub, just over 17 quadrillion.

So the story would hardly have to bend over backwards to make End of Z Goku be on par with Cell if he just trained as he normally does.

Ok wrong. Goku training over six weeks goes from 10,000(probably increased after vsing Vegeta) to 90,000. Then over the course of the Namek saga he receives Zenkais and eventually reaches 3,000,000. However that was back when Zenkais were predominant and Goku improved his base. After obtaining Super Saiyan zenkais faded and his base was neglected slightly. Super manga mentions the zenkai thing and Super as a whole addresses Goku's base not being that strong

These numbers get much more manageable if you divide Freeza's ultimate power by 10. Instead of havng to close the gap between 90k and 3 million, Goku just has to close the gap between 90k and 300k which isn't all that outrageous. Zenkai leading to a tripling from near fatal injuries is a much easier pill to swallow than 30x boost.

[Mad Swami]

Probably a good time to mention that, in the span of six weeks of gravity training and a Zenkai healing session, Goku goes from just barely being able to fend off Vegeta at 8,000+ to starting a fight with Final Form Frieza at 3,000,000.

DBZ Reddit Power Level Arguement Math:

Spoiler:

8,000 to 3,000,000 is a 375x increase, which Goku achieved in six days. If he really worked at it, Goku could increase his battle power by 228,175x in the ten year timeskip after the Buu arc. If Goku was in the "higher millions" of, say, 75,000,000 as you say, then if he kept up his Namek training regime during the ten years he could theoretically hit a level of 17,109,375,000,000 by the time he meets Uub, just over 17 quadrillion.

So the story would hardly have to bend over backwards to make End of Z Goku be on par with Cell if he just trained as he normally does.

Ok wrong. Goku training over six weeks goes from 10,000(probably increased after vsing Vegeta) to 90,000. Then over the course of the Namek saga he receives Zenkais and eventually reaches 3,000,000. However that was back when Zenkais were predominant and Goku improved his base. After obtaining Super Saiyan zenkais faded and his base was neglected slightly. Super manga mentions the zenkai thing and Super as a whole addresses Goku's base not being that strong

These numbers get much more manageable if you divide Freeza's ultimate power by 10. Instead of havng to close the gap between 90k and 3 million, Goku just has to close the gap between 90k and 300k which isn't all that outrageous. Zenkai leading to a tripling from near fatal injuries is a much easier pill to swallow than 30x boost.

Well I never denied that. Sorry if that came off agressive

[KBABZ]

Goku's journey to Namek was only a couple days, 6 if I recall.

Yeah, I thought it was six weeks as well until I realized that Goku made his way over there after Gohan, Krillin and Bulma got themselves into hot water and encountered the Frieza Force, meaning six weeks would almost certainly doom them. Even so under the math Goku would have reached 1.5 billion between Buu and EoZ with the math above.

Anyways, my point to Mad Swami is that the characters increase their potential all the time and keep making past foes feel like ants (Trunks killed Frieza in once slice and he wasn't enough to take on the Androids, who were quickly overshadowed by Cell, who Gohan then defeated). Goku starts out small and grows into a truly incredible warrior, so imagine what Uub's potential is and how that would push Goku even further, and how much that would excite Goku.