My biggest issue with Super

[Mad Swami]

Goku even says "After I train you we can then fight and go all out! Doesn't that sound amazing!"

Which doesn't make them rivals. It makes them sparring partners. Broly, he actually sees as a friendly rival, hence "call me Kakarot" type thing. It's simply two different types of character relationships. There isn't as much opportunity to get the fulfillment of being a mentor from Broly as there is with Uub. And there definitely isn't with Jiren.

I think your miss remembering the scene. Goku is giddy with excitement at the prospect of fighting Uub

[Melee_Sovereign]

That's not immediately obvious.

It's extremely likely. Only way it isn't is, Uub indeed was born far stronger than Kid Buu, or Goku didn't progress at all between the time of Kid Buu's defeat and EoZ (ignoring Super even exists). Which, come on, this is Goku we're talking about. He certainly progressed.

[Melee_Sovereign]

I think your miss remembering the scene. Goku is giddy with excitement at the prospect of fighting Uub

Being excited about fighting someone, isn't necessarily the same as seeing them as a rival.

[Mad Swami]

I think your miss remembering the scene. Goku is giddy with excitement at the prospect of fighting Uub

Being excited about fighting someone, isn't necessarily the same as seeing them as a rival.

Well by rival I mean fight buddy, which is exactly how he viewed Uub

[ABED]

That's not immediately obvious.

It's extremely likely. Only way it isn't is, Uub indeed was born far stronger than Kid Buu, or Goku didn't progress at all between the time of Kid Buu's defeat and EoZ (ignoring Super even exists). Which, come on, this is Goku we're talking about. He certainly progressed.

Progressed, definitely, but to the point of being stronger than pure Buu? That's pure conjecture.

[Psajdak]

My biggest issue with EoZ Uub is that beside reversed name, there is nothing about him that would remind me of Buu.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Progressed, definitely, but to the point of being stronger than pure Buu? That's pure conjecture.

If we're strictly talking power, Goku's SSJ3 form was already more powerful than pure Buu. The problem was it rapidly drains ki, which starkly contrasted with Buu's apparent limitless stamina, and endurance, as well as his natural resistance to blunt force.

Buu simply had other advantages, and Goku's best form simply had a huge weakness. But it wasn't related to sheer power.

[Mad Swami]

Progressed, definitely, but to the point of being stronger than pure Buu? That's pure conjecture.

If we're strictly talking power, Goku's SSJ3 form was already more powerful than pure Buu. The problem was it rapidly drains ki, which starkly contrasted with Buu's apparent limitless stamina, and endurance, as well as his natural resistance to blunt force.

Buu simply had other advantages, and Goku's best form simply had a huge weakness. But it wasn't related to sheer power.

Yes Goku as SSJ3 was always stronger. I think he was saying Base Goku never reaches that level which he doesn't because that would be silly

[Melee_Sovereign]

Yes Goku as SSJ3 was always stronger. I think he was saying Base Goku never reaches that level which he doesn't because that would be silly

Well Base Goku isn't as strong as Hit or Jiren either.

[Mad Swami]

Yes Goku as SSJ3 was always stronger. I think he was saying Base Goku never reaches that level which he doesn't because that would be silly

Well Base Goku isn't as strong as Hit or Jiren either.

Sorry I must have worded it poorly. I was trying to explain what I thought that guy was trying to say because that wasn't my point my bad

[ABED]

Progressed, definitely, but to the point of being stronger than pure Buu? That's pure conjecture.

If we're strictly talking power, Goku's SSJ3 form was already more powerful than pure Buu. The problem was it rapidly drains ki, which starkly contrasted with Buu's apparent limitless stamina, and endurance, as well as his natural resistance to blunt force.

Buu simply had other advantages, and Goku's best form simply had a huge weakness. But it wasn't related to sheer power.

Yes Goku as SSJ3 was always stronger. I think he was saying Base Goku never reaches that level which he doesn't because that would be silly

There's no reason to think SSJ3 Goku was stronger than pure Buu. Buu never slowed down, never got winded, and showed no visible signs of damage, so how exactly did you reach the conclusion that SSJ3 Goku was stronger?

[Melee_Sovereign]

There's no reason to think SSJ3 Goku was stronger than pure Buu. Buu never slowed down, never got winded, and showed no visible signs of damage, so how exactly did you reach the conclusion that SSJ3 Goku was stronger?

Goku himself basically said so. Him saying it is a reason to think SSJ3 Goku is stronger than pure Buu. Maybe it's not a good enough reason to think, and that's a fair argument to make. But it's still a reason to believe it.

And like I pointed out earlier, Buu never slowed down because he has ridiculously broken endurance, and his physiology has a natural resistance to blunt force. It doesn't mean his ki power is higher than SSJ3.

[ABED]

There's no reason to think SSJ3 Goku was stronger than pure Buu. Buu never slowed down, never got winded, and showed no visible signs of damage, so how exactly did you reach the conclusion that SSJ3 Goku was stronger?

Goku himself basically said so. Him saying it is a reason to think SSJ3 Goku is stronger than pure Buu. Maybe it's not a good enough reason to think, and that's a fair argument to make. But it's still a reason to believe it.

And like I pointed out earlier, Buu never slowed down because he has ridiculously broken endurance, and his physiology has a natural resistance to blunt force. It doesn't mean his ki power is higher than SSJ3.

What specifically does he say?

[Melee_Sovereign]

What specifically does he say?

Vegeta noted to Goku that he could beat pure Buu with SSJ3 at full power, and Goku agreed. The problem is, Goku was struggling to utilize the full power of SSJ3 and claimed he needed 1 minute to gather the energy to reach full power. That's why we have the scene of Goku powering up while Vegeta holds off Buu. Only problem is SSJ3 is far too unsustainable and Goku actually ends up powering down to base, involuntarily. It's like Buu is an energy efficient Tesla, and SSJ3 is a 1969 Dodge Charger Hellcat with a massive V8 engine, that's modified with a supercharger. Extremely powerful, but just eats up gasoline like nothing.

Manga scene is here:

https://www.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/511/13

[ABED]

Considering the sheer number of times they've been surprised by Buu's power, I truly doubt it. And you don't have to explain the drawbacks of SSJ3 to me. It's not some esoteric bit of DB lore. It's well known and I'm not a newbie.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Considering the sheer number of times they've been surprised by Buu's power, I truly doubt it. And you don't have to explain the drawbacks of SSJ3 to me. It's not some esoteric bit of DB lore. It's well known and I'm not a newbie.

I see your point, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume that Buu is more powerful than whatever power level the cast has ever sensed from Buu. Every scene where they were surprised by Buu's power, it meant that they sensed a level from Buu that they didn't sense before. And I don't think there was ever a moment they were surprised by Buu's power between the time Goku was confident in SSJ3 beating him, and the time of Buu's defeat.

[ABED]

It's not like characters haven't been overconfident, so I fail to see why that should factor so heavily into the equation.