Is the argument against Fusion hypocritical?

[90sDBZ]

I think it is. And I mean from Toriyama, fans, and the characters in-universe.

Toriyama said he never intended for Goku and Vegeta to fuse again after the Buu saga, as it would go against their characters. Obviously he was referring to their pride, and the scene were they decide to fight Kid Buu without Potara.

My problem with this is the amount of other times they've relied on others. Against Kid Buu they resorted to the Spirit Bomb to win anyway, which required the help of countless people, on top of Goku relying on Vegeta, Fat Buu, and Mr Satan to buy time. There's even a moment in the battle were Goku admits he was wrong to turn down the Potara.

Then we have BoG, which had Goku absorb the energy of the others to go SSG. How is any of this different from using Fusion to win?

I know Toriyama's original intention was for Goku and Vegeta to simply team up and defeat Zamasu by working together, but isn't that just the same as having to use Fusion? I'm also not convinced Goku hates the idea of Fusion as much as Vegeta does. He usually seems happy when it's time to use it. I get the impression that he actually thinks it's cool, even though it goes against his pride.

I actually like the fact they were forced to fuse against Zamasu. It showed just how high the stakes were that they would finally resort to Vegito again. And Gogeta's appearance in DBS Broly was a huge highlight for me. I don't think they should use it all the time as the novelty would wear off, but I like the idea of them fusing on the odd occasion when things get especially desperate.

[SupremeKai25]

I never knew Toriyama said that. Either way, it made sense for them to fuse in the Future Trunks arc. Vegeta had clearly learned to respect Goku a lot, so much so that he was extremely angered by what Zamasu did to him, since he basically stole the body of a Saiyan and used it as a mere tool for his dark plans (see his whole "You're just a Saiyan imposter" speech to Goku Black). Plus Vegeta had also become a lot more selfless. In the episode before Vegito's appearance, Vegeta literally risked his life to save Trunks' from Fused Zamasu's ki blast. In episode 61, he said he wanted to defeat Zamasu at all costs not for his damn personal glory, but so that Trunks and his people could have a future. It makes perfect sense that he's willing to once again fuse with Goku, especially given the circumstances. If they had never fused, no one would have stopped Zamasu (well, technically they still failed, but that's another matter entirely).

If anything, it'd be extremely out of character for Vegeta (and Goku too) to just say "Screw you Trunks, I ain't fusing with this guy again. Just let Zamasu win". I doubt anyone would like this outcome.

[ABED]

It is but it's in character that they would want to win by themselves if possible.

I actually didn't like when Vegeta and Goku fused in DBS: Broly. It was too fanservice-y.

[WittyUsername]

When I saw the thread title, I assumed this was more of a meta question regarding fan backlash against Fusion.

Anyway, if we’re going to be completely honest here, the whole idea of Goku being against Fusion has always seemed like a difficult pill to swallow for me. I mean, Goku was the one who suggested using the Fusion technique to defeat Boo in the first place. Sure, you could say that Goku only did this in a moment of desperation, but keep in mind, this was before he even had the chance to fight Boo for himself. Plus, if Goku is so against the idea of Fusion, why did he bother learning the technique to begin with?

[ABED]

When I saw the thread title, I assumed this was more of a meta question regarding fan backlash against Fusion.

Anyway, if we’re going to be completely honest here, the whole idea of Goku being against Fusion has always seemed like a difficult pill to swallow for me. I mean, Goku was the one who suggested using the Fusion technique to defeat Boo in the first place. Sure, you could say that Goku only did this in a moment of desperation, but keep in mind, this was before he even had the chance to fight Boo for himself. Plus, if Goku is so against the idea of Fusion, why did he bother learning the technique to begin with?

Because he's a martial artist who wants to be great and loves learning for its own sake.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Goku's pragmitism is basically nonexistent after the Cell Arc so while yes it does seem hypocritical to me that the man who begged Raditz to spare his son would be against such obvious solutions to major problems, I also can't ignore that that's the last time he could be called human. By Super he's a 100% Saiyan which means he will grudgingly set aside his own ego only to keep the universe from ending. If the stakes are lower or it's someone elses universe he'll let it fall to ruin. Sure he might feel a little pang of guilt afterwards but if guilt didn't stop Raditz from kidnapping his own nephew why would it stop Goku risking the lives of complete strangers?

[ABED]

I'm not seeing the link between begging Raditz to spare his son and fusion.

First, this isn't a superhero story, and second and more important, the characters are astonishingly concrete bound. If someone is calling out for help in front of them, they will help. However, they don't go looking for trouble to stop. They are martial artists and love to test themselves. And why doesn't it make sense to you that Goku cares more for his son than complete strangers. I would hope that's the case.

[WittyUsername]

When I saw the thread title, I assumed this was more of a meta question regarding fan backlash against Fusion.

Anyway, if we’re going to be completely honest here, the whole idea of Goku being against Fusion has always seemed like a difficult pill to swallow for me. I mean, Goku was the one who suggested using the Fusion technique to defeat Boo in the first place. Sure, you could say that Goku only did this in a moment of desperation, but keep in mind, this was before he even had the chance to fight Boo for himself. Plus, if Goku is so against the idea of Fusion, why did he bother learning the technique to begin with?

Because he's a martial artist who wants to be great and loves learning for its own sake.

But with the way current Dragon Ball has portrayed him, it doesn’t seem like Goku would ever be interested in learning a technique that requires him to rely on someone else’s strength. Sure, he loves getting stronger, but if he doesn’t even consider Fusion to be a case of getting stronger, why would he even bother with it? He flat out said that he was disappointed about having to rely on others to reach the Super Saiyan God transformation, since he prefers getting stronger through sheer training. Come to think of it, it seems hard to believe that Goku would’ve ever been interested in learning the Genki Dama.

[ABED]

To which I will respond with "he wants to know for its own sake". Being disappointed doesn't mean he's being hypocritical. He wishes he didn't have to but will do it because he has to. The Genki Dama doesn't require consent to utilize.

[90sDBZ]

When I saw the thread title, I assumed this was more of a meta question regarding fan backlash against Fusion.

Anyway, if we’re going to be completely honest here, the whole idea of Goku being against Fusion has always seemed like a difficult pill to swallow for me. I mean, Goku was the one who suggested using the Fusion technique to defeat Boo in the first place. Sure, you could say that Goku only did this in a moment of desperation, but keep in mind, this was before he even had the chance to fight Boo for himself. Plus, if Goku is so against the idea of Fusion, why did he bother learning the technique to begin with?

I agree it is strange he took the time to learn a technique he supposedly didn't want to use. Interestingly Goten and Trunks wanted to learn SS3, but Goku insisted on Fusion instead. You'd think he'd encourage them to fight alone if he hated Fusion that much.

He always seems to light up at the idea of Fusion, the Kid Buu fight being the sole exception. I honestly think he has mixed feelings about it. On the one hand there's pride. On the other hand he seems to think it's cool/fun to do.

It's also interesting how Vegito/Gogeta are always really happy to be around.

[ABED]

When I saw the thread title, I assumed this was more of a meta question regarding fan backlash against Fusion.

Anyway, if we’re going to be completely honest here, the whole idea of Goku being against Fusion has always seemed like a difficult pill to swallow for me. I mean, Goku was the one who suggested using the Fusion technique to defeat Boo in the first place. Sure, you could say that Goku only did this in a moment of desperation, but keep in mind, this was before he even had the chance to fight Boo for himself. Plus, if Goku is so against the idea of Fusion, why did he bother learning the technique to begin with?

I agree it is strange he took the time to learn a technique he supposedly didn't want to use. Interestingly Goten and Trunks wanted to learn SS3, but Goku insisted on Fusion instead. You'd think he'd encourage them to fight alone if he hated Fusion that much.

He always seems to light up at the idea of Fusion, the Kid Buu fight being the sole exception. I honestly think he has mixed feelings about it. On the one hand there's pride. On the other hand he seems to think it's cool/fun to do.

It's also interesting how Vegito/Gogeta are always really happy to be around.

While the desire to fight is what fundamentally drives him, it doesn't drive everyone else and the world is in imminent peril. It's not a contradiction of his character.

[WittyUsername]

When I saw the thread title, I assumed this was more of a meta question regarding fan backlash against Fusion.

Anyway, if we’re going to be completely honest here, the whole idea of Goku being against Fusion has always seemed like a difficult pill to swallow for me. I mean, Goku was the one who suggested using the Fusion technique to defeat Boo in the first place. Sure, you could say that Goku only did this in a moment of desperation, but keep in mind, this was before he even had the chance to fight Boo for himself. Plus, if Goku is so against the idea of Fusion, why did he bother learning the technique to begin with?

I agree it is strange he took the time to learn a technique he supposedly didn't want to use. Interestingly Goten and Trunks wanted to learn SS3, but Goku insisted on Fusion instead. You'd think he'd encourage them to fight alone if he hated Fusion that much.

He always seems to light up at the idea of Fusion, the Kid Buu fight being the sole exception. I honestly think he has mixed feelings about it. On the one hand there's pride. On the other hand he seems to think it's cool/fun to do.

It's also interesting how Vegito/Gogeta are always really happy to be around.

While the desire to fight is what fundamentally drives him, it doesn't drive everyone else and the world is in imminent peril. It's not a contradiction of his character.

The world being in imminent peril didn’t exactly stop him or anyone else from letting Dr. Gero complete the artificial humans.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I'm not seeing the link between begging Raditz to spare his son and fusion.

First, this isn't a superhero story, and second and more important, the characters are astonishingly concrete bound. If someone is calling out for help in front of them, they will help. However, they don't go looking for trouble to stop. They are martial artists and love to test themselves. And why doesn't it make sense to you that Goku cares more for his son than complete strangers. I would hope that's the case.

During the Saiyan Arc Goku was willing to seize on whatever advantage he could find even if it meant humiliating himself. It's not until the threat has passed and he can see a clear path towards bettering himself that he indulges his battle lust and asks his friends to spare Vegeta. I find it very hard to square that level of pragmitism with what we see Super. In those arcs, even when the opponent is an actual eldritch abomination unravelling reality he insists that he'd rather fail with his own power than win with someone elses. (I'm not going to point out how ridiculous the concept of surpassing an Old One is since the series already features fighters that are supposedly strong enough to shatter time.) It's especially jarring to me because Goku isn't being asked to debase himself and there is already a God of Destruction for him to compete against (so it's not like he's starved for challenges anymore).

Just my two cents. I know it's not a superhero story and I don't hold that against the series. But a protagonist that's this idiotic is a hard pill to swallow. If he were more explicitly amoral like HxH's Hisoka I probably wouldn't mind. Or if he were more of a deuteraganist and the story focused on the people trying to survive the fallout of his insane decisions. But as is Goku just comes off as too entitled, self-absorbed, and stupid to really warrant the level of loyalty the series' characters show him.

And he is absolutely the most hypocritical of the group.

[ABED]

During the Saiyan Arc Goku was willing to seize on whatever advantage he could find even if it meant humiliating himself.

I can't get past this line. I have zero idea what you're referring to.

The world being in imminent peril didn’t exactly stop him or anyone else from letting Dr. Gero complete the artificial humans.

Three years away is not imminent. It's quite the opposite. They don't even know if it will happen. I said he's concrete bound. Unless the threat is practically staring him in the face, he's going to go out of his way to fight

But as is Goku just comes off as too entitled, self-absorbed, and stupid to really warrant the level of loyalty the series' characters show him.

In that case, why watch?