Craziest Dragon Ball-related opinions, rumours, etc.

[ABED]

He needs an editor, literally. His wife was the editor on the original trilogy and I think their divorce in 1983 is more responsible for his subsequent output than people realize. Some people have an odd view of the creative process - that creative freedom means no one telling artists what to do or how to do it, but everyone needs an editor. I'm thankful Toriyama had a good one, or else we might have gotten 19 and 20 as the big bads of the cyborg arc.

[goku the krump dancer]

Oddly enough, a buddy of mine just made a ridiculous post on FB a few days ago claiming just that! How Cell shouldn't have existed and the Androids should've been the big bad of the arc. He also claimed Goku became a Deus Ex Machina (I fucking hate that phrase) after the Freeza Arc.

Dont worry, I told him he was an idiot.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Oddly enough, a buddy of mine just made a ridiculous post on FB a few days ago claiming just that! How Cell shouldn't have existed and the Androids should've been the big bad of the arc. He also claimed Goku became a Deus Ex Machina (I fucking hate that phrase) after the Freeza Arc.

Ok but, Super did make Goku a literal deus ex machina so your friend is not wrong, he's just off by a few decades.

[goku the krump dancer]

Oddly enough, a buddy of mine just made a ridiculous post on FB a few days ago claiming just that! How Cell shouldn't have existed and the Androids should've been the big bad of the arc. He also claimed Goku became a Deus Ex Machina (I fucking hate that phrase) after the Freeza Arc.

Ok but, Super did make Goku a literal deus ex machina so your friend is not wrong, he's just off by a few decades.

How? Super Saiyan God was the main plot for Beerus's Arc, Whis rewinding time was his own doing, Kaioken Blue didnt win him the U6 tournament and Ultra Instinct was built up off and on since RoF, which also didnt win the day either.

The only thing that can truly qualify as such is the Zeno Button.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Oddly enough, a buddy of mine just made a ridiculous post on FB a few days ago claiming just that! How Cell shouldn't have existed and the Androids should've been the big bad of the arc. He also claimed Goku became a Deus Ex Machina (I fucking hate that phrase) after the Freeza Arc.

Ok but, Super did make Goku a literal deus ex machina so your friend is not wrong, he's just off by a few decades.

How? Super Saiyan God was the main plot for Beerus's Arc, Whis rewinding time was his own doing, Kaioken Blue didnt win him the U6 tournament and Ultra Instinct was built up off and on since RoF, which also didnt win the day either.

The only thing that can truly qualify as such is the Zeno Button.

I was making a pun lol Goku is a super saiyan god changing the course of the story. Literally deus ex machina

[goku the krump dancer]

Went right over my head haha.

[ABED]

Oddly enough, a buddy of mine just made a ridiculous post on FB a few days ago claiming just that! How Cell shouldn't have existed and the Androids should've been the big bad of the arc. He also claimed Goku became a Deus Ex Machina (I fucking hate that phrase) after the Freeza Arc.

Dont worry, I told him he was an idiot.

What's wrong with the term deus ex machina?

[Kunzait_83]

He needs an editor, literally. His wife was the editor on the original trilogy and I think their divorce in 1983 is more responsible for his subsequent output than people realize.

This is spot on. Lucas was once a very talented filmmaker, but he also owed a lot to both his friendship with Francis Ford Coppola (who frequently collaborated with him and challenged him on a lot of his ideas) as well as his wife Marcia, who was without question one of the best editors in Hollywood back in the 1970s.

Its exceedingly well documented that Lucas' divorce from Marcia had a profoundly, deeply negative emotional impact on him, and its not at all a coincidence that he didn't direct another movie for several decades after that. Lucas' talent basically withered and eroded after 20+ years of living as an eccentric, wealthy recluse, not actually honing his craft, and surrounding himself largely with sycophantic Yes Men instead of the creative, talented friends he used to have.

THAT'S largely what lead to the Star Wars prequels turning out as dogshit as they were. But once upon a time long before that, the dude could absolutely direct the hell out of a movie, and its plain to see in his early, pre-Star Wars work. Its not a question of the guy being totally, innately untalented, but rather a case of massive early success and subsequent disconnection from the people close to him taking a massive toll on the guy and insulating him from creative and personal growth, leading to stagnation and deterioration of his former talents.

Some people have an odd view of the creative process - that creative freedom means no one telling artists what to do or how to do it, but everyone needs an editor. I'm thankful Toriyama had a good one, or else we might have gotten 19 and 20 as the big bads of the cyborg arc.

I think the issue is exactly WHO it is that's acting as the editor/voice of reason saying "no" to an artist. There's a HUGE difference between an artist's worst instincts being called out and challenged by another creative person who cares about the artistic integrity of the work, and a money person who only cares about protecting their bottom line, the work's actual quality be damned.

I think people get the idea that "an artist can't have ANYONE telling them no" due to the (very correctly) negative stigma from all the myriad of horror stories of studio executives and financiers butting their way into the creative process in order to try and further maximize their profits: with demonstrably hideous results in 99.999% of most cases.

There's a MASSIVE difference between a studio exec saying no to an artist because they think that an interesting and promising creative decision won't go over well with uptight soccer moms in Missouri, and a fellow artist or creative acting as an editor/voice of reason and saying no to an idea because it genuinely sucks or is flawed in some way. The former almost ALWAYS leads to boring, brainless crap, while the latter is generally welcome and often an essential part of the creative process for the betterment of a given work.

The thing is, Lucas isn't a terrible writer. He's quite good. But from what I see and know, it seems like he shoots first drafts.

His pre Star Wars stuff is really interesting. I was actually shocked when I finally checked out American Graffiti and 1138. It made me a little sad that Lucas is mostly known nowadays for the Star Wars prequels. They really are not representative of his style or the themes he likes to explore.

Unpopular opinion, but THX-1138 is easily Lucas' best movie. It was once rightly considered a classic, and its criminal how few people today seem to care to actually see it. The original Star Wars was understandably a trailblazer, but 1138 is both Lucas' strongest film overall as well as his most intellectually and emotionally resonant.

But Affleck has talent. Black has none.

Again, there's a big, big difference between someone being wholly untalented, and someone with talent pissing it away on stupid crap. Jack Black is without question in the latter category. He's definitely a talented guy - anyone who's a fan of Tenacious D or Mr. Show back in the day can attest to that - but he regularly chooses to squander that talent on absolutely unwatchable garbage (that no doubt pays handsomely well).

[Soppa Saia People]

i'm not a big fan of Lucas in general, but i do think his early movies show a lot of energy and passion that make them pretty interesting. you could say that about a lot of directors early works (generally when it comes to filmographies, i find the first couple films the best because you could tell how excited they where to like, make movies) , but i think it's especially the case with lucas given how many ideas he had. it's kinda why i only really like the original star wars, it's the only one that has that same type of energy.

Again, there's a big, big difference between someone being wholly untalented, and someone with talent pissing it away on stupid crap. Jack Black is without question in the latter category. He's definitely a talented guy - anyone who's a fan of Tenacious D or Mr. Show back in the day can attest to that - but he regularly chooses to squander that talent on absolutely unwatchable garbage (that no doubt pays handsomely well).

did black ever work on get a life ? i know the other tenacious d guy did. my bf loves that show, and it was one of my first introductions to r.e.m.

[ABED]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but Tenacious D is overrated. The only thing I've ever enjoyed Jack Black in is the episode of Community where they play on his annoying persona. It's clear the guy knows his persona, so good on him for basically being able to make fun of himself. Back to him playing Yajirobe - that's a role that's actually not in his wheel house. Yajirobe isn't the most likeable character, who ultimately proves to have a heart. Black plays a certain type - the loveable chubby fellow. Set aside him not being Asian, it's just not a good fit. You can really date that rumor based on the name of the people listed. Jessica Alba as Bulma? Really?

THX1138 is certainly Lucas's most esoteric work, but it's not his most enjoyable. My tastes are pretty much thoroughly mainstream. I watch a lot of movies, and I'll give just about anything a shot even if it's not up my alley, but I still generally prefer escapist entertainment. I'll take Star Wars and Dragon Ball 10 times out of 10 over THX 1138 and 2001 or almost anything Kubrick.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Lately i've been hearing a lot of people think yamcha wasnt a joke/comedy relief character from the beginning.

They were all jokes characters from the beggining. Goku had to grab people's crotches to see what sex they were. Krillin wins a martial arts contest because he wasn't drawn with a nose. ChiChi brags that her heart is as clean as a freshly flushed toilet. Master Roshi's best attack is pun on a variety morning show!

It is completely inane to point out that a character is a joke character because every character that debuted before the Saiyan Arc was written to be a joke/comedic relief character right down to the protagonist.

[Robo4900]

They were all jokes characters from the beggining. Goku had to grab people's crotches to see what sex they were. Krillin wins a martial arts contest because he wasn't drawn with a nose. ChiChi brags that her heart is as clean as a freshly flushed toilet. Master Roshi's best attack is pun on a variety morning show!

Wait, which attack is that, and which morning show is it a pun on? :O

It is completely inane to point out that a character is a joke character because every character that debuted before the Saiyan Arc was written to be a joke/comedic relief character right down to the protagonist.

A good few of the Red Ribbon guys, as well as Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Piccolo's children & minions, probably a little over half of Baba's warriors, and many others weren't joke/comic relief characters.
You're making the common mistake of playing into the ridiculous "og db is the comedic prequel" perception; watch the Red Ribbon arc and tell me Tao Pai-Pai is just a comic relief character, watch the Baba mini-arc and tell me every single one of the opponents there is comic relief (sure, you could make an easy case for the invisible man being a one-note joke, maybe the vampire, but the mystery fighter? Devilman? The mummy? Baba herself?), watch the 22nd Tenkaichi arc and tell me Tenshinhan is a comic relief character, watch the Piccolo arc and tell me any of the antagonists in that are comic relief...
The Saiyan arc wasn't a sudden turning point where the show "got serious" or something, all the stuff that plays into the ephemeral idea of a "Z style" a lot of people like to pretend exists had its roots as far back as the 21st Tenkaichi, and was in full force during the 22nd Tenkaichi and Piccolo Daimao arcs.

But yeah, in the very first two storylines -- the first hunt for the balls, and the 21st Tenkaichi -- it was still basically a gag manga, so obviously every character has some form of central joke. And that carries on all the way to the end to one extent or another; even the most serious characters tend to have some kind of pun in their name, at least. And of course, there was comedy laced all throughout the run... The Boo arc was practically an entire storyline of Dragon Ball taking the piss out of itself.
But any suggestion that there was any kind of sudden shift in the seriousness of the show/manga, its characters, its writing, etc. that happened in the Saiyan arc is really nonsense. The Saiyan arc played with some stuff the show hadn't done before -- we saw the afterlife, we had much more extensive training material than we've seen before, we had our first alien threat, Piccolo joined the goodguys, etc. But the show had already gone to dark, serious places as far back as the 21st Tenkaichi with Goku's death fakeout.

Sorry to harp on about this, but this kind of stuff really does bother me. It's 2020, we know better than to consider Z any kind of major turning point beyond that of any other arc in the show.

[Kunzait_83]

Wait, which attack is that, and which morning show is it a pun on? :O

Bankoku Bikkuri Sho. The green lightning attack he uses to trap/hold Goku in stasis while he turns into an Oozaru at the 21st Budokai.

Its named after/in reference to the Bankoku Bikkuri Show, an old Japanese variety show from the late 1960s (that Toriyama himself likely grew up watching).

[Robo4900]

Wait, which attack is that, and which morning show is it a pun on? :O

Bankoku Bikkuri Sho. The green lightning attack he uses to trap/hold Goku in stasis while he turns into an Oozaru at the 21st Budokai.

Its named after/in reference to the Bankoku Bikkuri Show, an old Japanese variety show from the late 1960s (that Toriyama himself likely grew up watching).

Hah! That's pretty great.

A shame the English localisations never tried to do anything with that. I'd be interested to see what a good localisation would try there.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

But any suggestion that there was any kind of sudden shift in the seriousness of the show/manga, its characters, its writing, etc. that happened in the Saiyan arc is really nonsense. The Saiyan arc played with some stuff the show hadn't done before -- we saw the afterlife, we had much more extensive training material than we've seen before, we had our first alien threat, Piccolo joined the goodguys, etc. But the show had already gone to dark, serious places as far back as the 21st Tenkaichi with Goku's death fakeout.

Sorry to harp on about this, but this kind of stuff really does bother me. It's 2020, we know better than to consider Z any kind of major turning point beyond that of any other arc in the show.

I picked the Saiyan Arc because I think it's the best cut off. After that point the only real "joke characters" introduced are the Ginyus at least until Boo. I know the manga got increasingly more serious as it tried to get more popular and that there were serious moments throughout (Krillin's first death for example) but as best I can see the gags don't really stop until Raditz lands. Even during the Piccolo Daimao Arc the manga manages a bunch of silliness (the demon king had been sealed away in a rice cooker, Goku jokes that Yajirobe sounds like he has the same voice actor as Krillin). So I think my point stands

[ABED]

But any suggestion that there was any kind of sudden shift in the seriousness of the show/manga, its characters, its writing, etc. that happened in the Saiyan arc is really nonsense. The Saiyan arc played with some stuff the show hadn't done before -- we saw the afterlife, we had much more extensive training material than we've seen before, we had our first alien threat, Piccolo joined the goodguys, etc. But the show had already gone to dark, serious places as far back as the 21st Tenkaichi with Goku's death fakeout.

Sorry to harp on about this, but this kind of stuff really does bother me. It's 2020, we know better than to consider Z any kind of major turning point beyond that of any other arc in the show.

I picked the Saiyan Arc because I think it's the best cut off. After that point the only real "joke characters" introduced are the Ginyus at least until Boo. I know the manga got increasingly more serious as it tried to get more popular and that there were serious moments throughout (Krillin's first death for example) but as best I can see the gags don't really stop until Raditz lands. Even during the Piccolo Daimao Arc the manga manages a bunch of silliness (the demon king had been sealed away in a rice cooker, Goku jokes that Yajirobe sounds like he has the same voice actor as Krillin). So I think my point stands

Kaio-sama is a huge source of laughs. Toriyama still keeps some sense of irreverence when the stories get more serious. Cell's name is so on the nose, and Dr. Gero might as well be named Dr. Ribbit.

[10gigtriforce]

But any suggestion that there was any kind of sudden shift in the seriousness of the show/manga, its characters, its writing, etc. that happened in the Saiyan arc is really nonsense. The Saiyan arc played with some stuff the show hadn't done before -- we saw the afterlife, we had much more extensive training material than we've seen before, we had our first alien threat, Piccolo joined the goodguys, etc. But the show had already gone to dark, serious places as far back as the 21st Tenkaichi with Goku's death fakeout.

Sorry to harp on about this, but this kind of stuff really does bother me. It's 2020, we know better than to consider Z any kind of major turning point beyond that of any other arc in the show.

I picked the Saiyan Arc because I think it's the best cut off. After that point the only real "joke characters" introduced are the Ginyus at least until Boo. I know the manga got increasingly more serious as it tried to get more popular and that there were serious moments throughout (Krillin's first death for example) but as best I can see the gags don't really stop until Raditz lands. Even during the Piccolo Daimao Arc the manga manages a bunch of silliness (the demon king had been sealed away in a rice cooker, Goku jokes that Yajirobe sounds like he has the same voice actor as Krillin). So I think my point stands

Kaio-sama is a huge source of laughs. Toriyama still keeps some sense of irreverence when the stories get more serious. Cell's name is so on the nose, and Dr. Gero might as well be named Dr. Ribbit.

Yeah joke characters never stopped being introduced. Even in the android saga Dr Gero and his other androids had some moments. "I dont wanna fly I wanna drive an old van off road!" and gt even had quite a few


Dragon ball has always been at least partially a gag series, just around the time goku fought roshi it had a healthy dose of 'serious' action too.

[Metalwario64]

I don't know if this fits, but it's a story I read here from around the time I joined that has stuck with me. It's a (inactive) user's misconception that they had when they first viewed the series, based upon the pendulum room Z filler and "the next dimension":

I mistook the 'next dimension' business for something depressingly creepy. This is from way back when I first caught the show in syndication, pre-Toonami broadcast.

I had seen the first handful of episodes with Raditz, so I knew the basics: what Goku and Piccolo and some others looked like (even if I hadn't learned their names quite yet), that people could get resurrected sometimes if they wanted to, and that guys got sent into 'the Next Dimension' when they got killed. Check. Next, somehow I managed to catch just the tail-end of the episode where characters train in the Room of Spirit and Time. Watched it just in time for the guys to get slaughtered by the Saiyans and be sent back to that room. Since I was late coming to the episode I actually thought that the main characters (Goku, Piccolo, Krillin) were just now getting killed off in the real world again, and that this was the moment when we finally get to see what the afterlife was like for them.

CREEPY. It's a dank, dark room, with only a disturbing ticking clock, and everyone is standing around looking vacant and completely different. Here's Piccolo... except he looks old, serious, and decrepit?! (Unbeknownst to me, that was Kami) Goku is no longer the joyful man from before, he has a much more serious persona... his image is also entirely different, with unkempt hair and plenty of scars. (Also unbeknownst to me, that was Yamcha) And Krillin? Well, he looks the same. That just made the whole ordeal weirder, like there was no set rhyme or reason why everyone's souls looked different after dying, or why their personalities took a total 180. All in some vapid dimension devoid of time.

Then "Piccolo" says that everyone had been standing in this room the entire time, and what they encountered before--even their own demise--was only an illusion separate from their real selves. <Gasp!> Again I misinterpreted, thinking he was referring to everyone's entire lives beforehand. So Goku's whole life, including his days as a husband and father, was an illusion. This scarred man, who didn't even look or act like Goku, was the Real Thing. Weird. Even Goku's personality and ability to age were part of the illusion he had ... until this moment, when they were ultimately cast aside in favor of revealing his true identity. Ditto with Piccolo and the others.

In other words, their entire lives were a lie; heck, the world as they knew it, everyone they knew, and the passage of time itself were lies. Their personas in life merely served as masks or false personalities masquerading in place of their true identities: these solemn, alien, and entirely different people who simply stood and watched alone in this empty eternity, doing nothing. And only by dying could Goku and the others see themselves for who they truly were: empty beings in some empty eternity.

Well "Goku", Krillin and the others vowed anyway to go back and train for the Saiyans. The next time I saw an episode, I saw the real Goku and Piccolo out in the open. It struck me how these guys decided to return to this world and fight for their lives there, even though they had learned that everything and everyone they knew were superficial facades which would all inevitably awake/return to the real dimension where their real personalities exist forever in desolate stillness.

Even when I saw more of the show and realized my error, I still couldn't shake the nihilistic context I had formed in my mind whenever anyone was sent to "The Next Dimension."

This is very in depth and a pretty funny misconception, and because of this it has stuck with me (it was a pain to track down though).

[Polyphase Avatron]

I don't know if this fits, but it's a story I read here from around the time I joined that has stuck with me. It's a (inactive) user's misconception that they had when they first viewed the series, based upon the pendulum room Z filler and "the next dimension":

I mistook the 'next dimension' business for something depressingly creepy. This is from way back when I first caught the show in syndication, pre-Toonami broadcast.

I had seen the first handful of episodes with Raditz, so I knew the basics: what Goku and Piccolo and some others looked like (even if I hadn't learned their names quite yet), that people could get resurrected sometimes if they wanted to, and that guys got sent into 'the Next Dimension' when they got killed. Check. Next, somehow I managed to catch just the tail-end of the episode where characters train in the Room of Spirit and Time. Watched it just in time for the guys to get slaughtered by the Saiyans and be sent back to that room. Since I was late coming to the episode I actually thought that the main characters (Goku, Piccolo, Krillin) were just now getting killed off in the real world again, and that this was the moment when we finally get to see what the afterlife was like for them.

CREEPY. It's a dank, dark room, with only a disturbing ticking clock, and everyone is standing around looking vacant and completely different. Here's Piccolo... except he looks old, serious, and decrepit?! (Unbeknownst to me, that was Kami) Goku is no longer the joyful man from before, he has a much more serious persona... his image is also entirely different, with unkempt hair and plenty of scars. (Also unbeknownst to me, that was Yamcha) And Krillin? Well, he looks the same. That just made the whole ordeal weirder, like there was no set rhyme or reason why everyone's souls looked different after dying, or why their personalities took a total 180. All in some vapid dimension devoid of time.

Then "Piccolo" says that everyone had been standing in this room the entire time, and what they encountered before--even their own demise--was only an illusion separate from their real selves. <Gasp!> Again I misinterpreted, thinking he was referring to everyone's entire lives beforehand. So Goku's whole life, including his days as a husband and father, was an illusion. This scarred man, who didn't even look or act like Goku, was the Real Thing. Weird. Even Goku's personality and ability to age were part of the illusion he had ... until this moment, when they were ultimately cast aside in favor of revealing his true identity. Ditto with Piccolo and the others.

In other words, their entire lives were a lie; heck, the world as they knew it, everyone they knew, and the passage of time itself were lies. Their personas in life merely served as masks or false personalities masquerading in place of their true identities: these solemn, alien, and entirely different people who simply stood and watched alone in this empty eternity, doing nothing. And only by dying could Goku and the others see themselves for who they truly were: empty beings in some empty eternity.

Well "Goku", Krillin and the others vowed anyway to go back and train for the Saiyans. The next time I saw an episode, I saw the real Goku and Piccolo out in the open. It struck me how these guys decided to return to this world and fight for their lives there, even though they had learned that everything and everyone they knew were superficial facades which would all inevitably awake/return to the real dimension where their real personalities exist forever in desolate stillness.

Even when I saw more of the show and realized my error, I still couldn't shake the nihilistic context I had formed in my mind whenever anyone was sent to "The Next Dimension."

This is very in depth and a pretty funny misconception, and because of this it has stuck with me (it was a pain to track down though).

That's some creepypasta shit right there.

[Tian]

Do games count too? If so, I remember there was this rumour where you apparently could unlock Gogeta in Final Bout.

The thing was like this:

Beat the game in Hard 20 times, and you will be able to play as Gogeta