Boycotting DB related company - did you do it?

[Planetnamek]

I like Ellis a lot, but I don't agree with her on this. What evidence does she use to support her thesis? If a company is making a good return on investment, why would a few posts on social media persuade them to change course?

In this instance she was talking Marvel in regards to Disney letting go of James Gunn after right-wing bigot rapist/pedo Mike Cernovich dug up a bunch of Gunn's old tweets which had a number of dark jokes that wouldn't fly today, people were pissed at Marvel and Ellis pointed out a boycott of a few people would not make any real difference in convincing Marvel/Disney to re-hire Gunn, she then said crticizing them for their decision on social media would be more effective since companies do want good publicity and it's hard to ignore a hashtag that paints your company in a bad light.

Lindsay turned out to be right as we learned that Disney had in-fact rehired Gunn not too long after firing him after the backlash had gotten severe enough that Disney had realized they'd been misled, but they held off on revealing that he was re-hired for several months so they didn't look so foolish backtracking on a decision they'd made so soon.

So yes a number of posts on social media can and do make a difference in how companies way moreso then a few people deciding not to buy from them does. I still remember the infamous "boycott" of Modern Warfare 2 on PC and how that turned out and I just can't help but instinctively roll my eyes every single time someone mentions "boycotting" a company because I always know how that story ends and it's never in a way that satisfies the boycotters(or is it boycottees? not sure if either are real words).

As Jim Sterling pointed out a number of times, boycotts of products pretty much never work because so few people can actually commit to them and the company isn't going to care about a vocal minority of people when most will happily buy their products, complaining on social media is actually far more effective at getting companies to change to quote Lindsay Ellis.

Could you name some examples? I don't use Twitter so I was just giving examples of what I've witnessed. Terminator: Dark Fate failed to breakeven and Rise of Skywalker performed lower than expected and the least from the sequel trilogy. These weren't organized boycotts and it just fewer people overall decided to watch these sequels in theaters compared to their previous installments.

That had nothing to do with boycotts, Terminator films have underperformed since the third one at least so Dark Fate's performance wasn't surprising in the least. Rise of Skywalker still made a shitload of money so there's no real evidence of a boycott there, if anything it's more likely just fatigue from Star Wars in general.

Here's some examples of companies changing due to feedback from social media:https://www.brandwatch.com/blog/5-times ... er-change/

[ABED]

It can, but I find her logic specious concerning the effectiveness of boycotts. No duh they often don't work because people follow through. That just means people must not be too bothered by it to hold firm in their demands. In the case of Gunn and Marvel, I don't know how well a boycot could actually do considering how few mainstream film goers know who the hell Gunn is.

Concerning the term "boycott" I'm thinking something more active. I think what's being talked about here is often more "voting with one's wallet." The people's lack of interest in Terminator is not some active protest. It was them staying home because after 3 progressively worse sequels, no one was interested in a story that logically ended after the second film.

I think there are cases where it can be effective to protest on social media, but my inclination is to think it's not nearly as effective as some would like to believe, and listening isn't always for the best. It can lead to pandering.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

It can, but I find her logic specious concerning the effectiveness of boycotts. No duh they often don't work because people follow through. That just means people must not be too bothered by it to hold firm in their demands. In the case of Gunn and Marvel, I don't know how well a boycot could actually do considering how few mainstream film goers know who the hell Gunn is.

Concerning the term "boycott" I'm thinking something more active. I think what's being talked about here is often more "voting with one's wallet." The people's lack of interest in Terminator is not some active protest. It was them staying home because after 3 progressively worse sequels, no one was interested in a story that logically ended after the second film.

Indeed, i really feel that the sequels which came after T2 were unnecessary because that one had already effectively wrapped the plot which continued from the original film and they were just needless extensions.

[Skar]

That had nothing to do with boycotts, Terminator films have underperformed since the third one at least so Dark Fate's performance wasn't surprising in the least. Rise of Skywalker still made a shitload of money so there's no real evidence of a boycott there, if anything it's more likely just fatigue from Star Wars in general.

Dark Fate was the lowest grossing film since the first Terminator and the only installment not to breakeven. I could be wrong here but I read Disney decided to change course with SW and have fewer movies after RoS's box office performance since they expected it to be much higher. I personally didn't watch these in theaters and my reason is that I don't want to support sequels after the series has originally ended.

Regardless of the reason, fewer than expected people wanted to watch these sequels which could affect how these franchises are handled in the future. In these instances, not watching the movie likely had more of an impact on the company's decisions than whatever complaining there was on social media. I don't doubt that social media could have an influence but it's a relatively new phenomenon. Before the internet became widespread, getting in contact with those responsible isn't as easy so "boycotting" involved choosing not to buy the product.

[ABED]

How do you listen to that many disparate opinions? I'm of the mind that listening to specific critiques from fans and trying to placate them is a fool's errand. As condescending as this comes off, the relationship between author(s) and audience is like that between doctor and patient. Patient feedback is invaluable, but the doctor shouldn't let them self diagnose and treat. It's the doctor's job to listen to the patient, figure out what's wrong and prescribe the best course for them.

[Planetnamek]

That had nothing to do with boycotts, Terminator films have underperformed since the third one at least so Dark Fate's performance wasn't surprising in the least. Rise of Skywalker still made a shitload of money so there's no real evidence of a boycott there, if anything it's more likely just fatigue from Star Wars in general.

Dark Fate was the lowest grossing film since the first Terminator and the only installment not to breakeven. I could be wrong here but I read Disney decided to change course with SW and have fewer movies after RoS's box office performance since they expected it to be much higher. I personally didn't watch these in theaters and my reason is that I don't want to support sequels after the series has originally ended.

Regardless of the reason, fewer than expected people wanted to watch these sequels which could affect how these franchises are handled in the future. In these instances, not watching the movie likely had more of an impact on the company's decisions than whatever complaining there was on social media. I don't doubt that social media could have an influence but it's a relatively new phenomenon. Before the internet became widespread, getting in contact with those responsible isn't as easy so "boycotting" involved choosing not to buy the product.

But Genisys actually performed worse domestically then Dark Fate did. Disney's decision to make fewer Star Wars movies came as a result of production issues with their spin-off films and as a result of Solo making less then expected.

There's still no real evidence to suggest that fewer people saw those films because they were "boycotting" those franchises, just because you have no interest in seeing a film does not mean you are "boycotting" it, by that logic I was "boycotting" every single film I never paid to see in theaters even though that's blatantly not true.

There's a world of difference between simple franchise fatigue and actively boycotting something.

How do you listen to that many disparate opinions? I'm of the mind that listening to specific critiques from fans and trying to placate them is a fool's errand. As condescending as this comes off, the relationship between author(s) and audience is like that between doctor and patient. Patient feedback is invaluable, but the doctor shouldn't let them self diagnose and treat. It's the doctor's job to listen to the patient, figure out what's wrong and prescribe the best course for them.

You determine which opinions are echoed the most and which ones have the most merit(I.E. wanting Sonic's design to better reflect how he looks in the games) and which ones are worth ignoring altogether(I.E. most of the whining by those comicsgate/gamergate bigots that hate any piece of media with GSRM characters featured prominently)

[ABED]

If there's Star Wars fatigue, it's mostly due to the stories chasing the high of nostalgia. At a certain point, the high wears off. Considering the level of success the franchise has been able to sustain since 77, there's little reason to think it couldn't keep going forever. It would have to change and go past the Skywalker Saga and take risks, but I don't think people are just inherently tired of Star Wars after just a few years, they're tired of it being safe. The reason I think DB has mostly been able to sustain success is the cost of producing this content isn't nearly as enormous so the fall will never be nearly as spectacular.

You determine which opinions are echoed the most and which ones have the most merit(I.E. wanting Sonic's design to better reflect how he looks in the games) and which ones are worth ignoring altogether(I.E. most of the whining by those comicsgate/gamergate bigots that hate any piece of media with GSRM characters featured prominently)

After looking into issues like this, I find that most times, it's simply a matter of listening to other creative people you trust, not "the fans". I think your view is rather reductive. The people making ridiculous complaints or suggestions aren't relegated to just bigoted douchebags. What I've found is most viewers don't often know why exactly a piece of art affects them the way it does. Most often they look to the tangible details as the fundamental reason why something did or didn't work.

And just because something does or doesn't adhere closer to the source material isn't the reason for its success or lack thereof.

[Skar]

But Genisys actually performed worse domestically then Dark Fate did.

Genisys grossed $89 million domestically while Dark Fate grossed $62 million so Dark Fate was lowest grossing domestically and internationally since the first Terminator.

There's still no real evidence to suggest that fewer people saw those films because they were "boycotting" those franchises, just because you have no interest in seeing a film does not mean you are "boycotting" it, by that logic I was "boycotting" every single film I never paid to see in theaters even though that's blatantly not true.

Once again, I don't speak for everyone. I'm giving you my reason for not choosing to see these movies and that it could potentially apply to others who also chose not to watch them. I'm 29 and lived in an area with an unreliable internet connection most of my life so I never got into the social media. I use FB to talk with family and close friends but that's it. What I'm trying to explain is protesting or boycotting a company by simplt choosing to buy their product has existed since the beginning of commerce. I didn't complain about these sequels on social media and I just decided not to pay to watch more of them in theaters.

[Planetnamek]

But Genisys actually performed worse domestically then Dark Fate did.

Genisys grossed $89 million domestically while Dark Fate grossed $62 million so Dark Fate was lowest grossing domestically and internationally since the first Terminator.

There's still no real evidence to suggest that fewer people saw those films because they were "boycotting" those franchises, just because you have no interest in seeing a film does not mean you are "boycotting" it, by that logic I was "boycotting" every single film I never paid to see in theaters even though that's blatantly not true.

Once again, I don't speak for everyone. I'm giving you my reason for not choosing to see these movies and that it could potentially apply to others who also chose not to watch them. I'm 29 and lived in an area with an unreliable internet connection most of my life so I never got into the social media. I use FB to talk with family and close friends but that's it. What I'm trying to explain is protesting or boycotting a company by simplt choosing to buy their product has existed since the beginning of commerce. I didn't complain about these sequels on social media and I just decided not to pay to watch more of them in theaters.

But is that really a boycott though? I chose not to waste my money seeing those godawful Fantastic Beasts films in theaters, does not mean I boycotted them though.

Likewise i'm pissed at the NFL because of how they did Colin dirty over his justified protests, but me not watching them has more to do with my complete lack of interest in sports than it does with the NFL's actions.

[Skar]

But is that really a boycott though? I chose not to waste my money seeing those godawful Fantastic Beasts films in theaters, does not mean I boycotted them though.

To be honest, I'm not sure how to get this point across. I gave you my reason for not watching these films and that I didn't want to support you. I agreed with you that there could be other reasons because obviously I can't speak for everyone who chose not to watch these in theaters. I googled them and some possible reasons I found were: franchise/sequel/reboot fatigue like you said, lack of interest in the story, gender/identity politics, etc.

Once again, I have no idea what the majority reasoning was so I can only give you my reason with certainty. Not every recent sequel suffered from franchise fatigue so whatever applied to RoS and Dark Fate didn't apply to these other sequels. Each Avengers film were the highest grossing of each phase. Joker performed far better than expected and even outgrossed RoS by a few million. Mission Impossible 6 was the highest grossing of the series. My original point was that fans have the right to boycott a company which is why I brought up that those sequels performed worse than expected and that a possibility was that some fans boycotted them.

NFL is also another example. Googling why viewership declined, you'll find different theories. Lack of interest, other forms of entertainment becoming more popular, people saying they were going to boycott the NFL, etc. Your reaso it isn't going to apply to everyone same as how someone boycotting it didn't apply to you but both had ths same result of not watching it.

[ABED]

But is that really a boycott though? I chose not to waste my money seeing those godawful Fantastic Beasts films in theaters, does not mean I boycotted them though.

To be honest, I'm not sure how to get this point across. I gave you my reason for not watching these films and that I didn't want to support you. I agreed with you that there could be other reasons because obviously I can't speak for everyone who chose not to watch these in theaters. I googled them and some possible reasons I found were: franchise/sequel/reboot fatigue like you said, lack of interest in the story, gender/identity politics, etc.

Once again, I have no idea what the majority reasoning was so I can only give you my reason with certainty. Not every recent sequel suffered from franchise fatigue so whatever applied to RoS and Dark Fate didn't apply to these other sequels. Each Avengers film were the highest grossing of each phase. Joker performed far better than expected and even outgrossed RoS by a few million. Mission Impossible 6 was the highest grossing of the series. My original point was that fans have the right to boycott a company which is why I brought up that those sequels performed worse than expected and that a possibility was that some fans boycotted them.

NFL is also another example. Googling why viewership declined, you'll find different theories. Lack of interest, other forms of entertainment becoming more popular, people saying they were going to boycott the NFL, etc. Your reaso it isn't going to apply to everyone same as how someone boycotting it didn't apply to you but both had ths same result of not watching it.

I think Planetnamek's point was not watching something out of lack of interest is not the same as boycotting/protesting. One's passive, whereas boycotting is active.

[SHINOBI-03]

I think Planetnamek's point was not watching something out of lack of interest is not the same as boycotting/protesting. One's passive, whereas boycotting is active.

If you want an example, I'm boycotting Disney's upcoming Mulan movie because the main actress supports police brutality on the Hong Kong protestors. While many would "boycott" it because they hate the live action remakes, I'm doing so for a much serious issue.

[Skar]

I think Planetnamek's point was not watching something out of lack of interest is not the same as boycotting/protesting. One's passive, whereas boycotting is active.

I get his point and I don't know how many times I had agree. It seems he kept asking me for evidence that people were boycotting these movies which I can't prove. I was only pointing out that boycotting could've been one possibility and that fewer people watching them likely affected the company's decisions more than a minority criticizing them on social media.

[Planetnamek]

I think Planetnamek's point was not watching something out of lack of interest is not the same as boycotting/protesting. One's passive, whereas boycotting is active.

If you want an example, I'm boycotting Disney's upcoming Mulan movie because the main actress supports police brutality on the Hong Kong protestors. While many would "boycott" it because they hate the live action remakes, I'm doing so for a much serious issue.

To be fair it's very likely she does not actually believe that, she's just saying she is so China won't go after her family, because that is a real thing that happens, that's a reason why a lot of people of Chinese descent are afraid to speak out against the bullshit going in on Hong Kong-because of potential retaliation from Chinese authorities, the actress may not live in China so while she personally has nothing to worry about she almost certainly has family living there and if she did speak out they could easily get arrested by the Chinese Secret Police and detained somewhere and she does not want to risk that happening, which I totally get.

I'm not seeing that Mulan film either, though that's not for moral reasons, it's because I genuinely hate Disney's trend of doing inferior live-action remakes of it's animated films as opposed to doing more original animated works, it comes off as creatively bankrupt and i'd rather not waste my money on them.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Actually that's only really true of DBZ, their other dubs like Blue Gender and Yu-Yu-Hakisho are considerably more faithful to the original.

Danganronpa 3 almost had a gag dub from what I've heard, Prison School had that gamergate line*, and I think it was Dragon Maid that had a few lines changed IIRC from some people complaining on YouTube. I've heard more about changes they make, but I forget most of them (I'm tired right now). Then again, there's still their horrible DBZ releases such as the 30th and the season sets.

Note: I'm not really upset about the gamergate line in reference to what it was about, but that they bothered changing the line to begin with and inserted a partisan view when they could've left it alone and avoided another internet outrage.

If it was anti-GG i'm totally fine with it as those goddamn bigots can bite my ass for all I care, those morons will outrage over everything no matter(including minorities and LGBTQ folks merely existing) so I truly could not care less if something angers those manchildren(with the occasional womanchild)

If being against those pathetic excuses for individuals is considered "partisan" then you could consider me "partisan" as well and if Funimation wants to take digs at them they have my full support.

Sorry for the late response. I don't do much during my work week (Friday - Tuesday, soon to be Saturday - Wednesday) besides work and sleep. But I completely disagree. If politics/social issues are not part of the anime then the dub should not have lines replaced to start showing what the dub translators/writers/actors believe. It is changing the product from what it is in Japanese. I know I could watch the Japanese version to retain the faithfulness of the product, but sometimes I just don't feel like reading subtitles (ex. if I'm tired). I'm not saying "Grrr I hate that they're anti-GG" or saying "I'm glad they're pro-GG." They changed it. I dislike that.

I stayed up late last night (because it was my Friday night ) reading what VegettoEX thinks of Kai's releases on BD/DVD in the reviews section of the website. Apparently, Funimation changed a line in Kai episode 4. When Piccolo is taking Gohan away to train until Nappa and Vegeta arrive, the assclowns decided to change Bulma's line from "I'm not sure that's going to go over well..." (Simmons's subtitle) to "A year? Don't you need a parent's signature for that?" They changed it because they wanted it to be funny/funnier and it is not a good translation of the original line that preserves the faithfulness of what is being said. Does it change the plot? No. Do I (or VegettoEX) like it? No.

So if a show is just doing its thing and being a show (lol), I disagree with editing dialogue to insert partisan political/social views no matter what it is. Those morons could change a line to something anti-China and I'd be against it unless it was in the original Japanese version. I don't get why it's so hard for Funimation to do a faithful dub when most of Kai is faithful, and quite a bit of Super is too. Maybe they just want to give it their own touch (ie. "Artistic license" as Sean calls it). Maybe Funimation staff have the IQ of a McChicken.

Speaking of boycotting (the original point of this thread), I saw someone else on here mention Viz advertises the manga as uncensored, but then releases it censored. There currently is no way to obtain it (legally) uncensored. Fuck that. Hell, I'm still butthurt about how they separated it into DB and DBZ. Volume 26 of DBZ has the number "41" somewhere on it (I forget where, Majin Boo's ship?) and it is wrong. Then again, every cover starting with volume 1 of DBZ has the wrong number because of the change. I know that everything that happened to DBZ starting with skipping DB and the edits of the Saban dub, later Funimation, are largely responsible for anime coming to the west like it did. But why did it have to happen to our show? Everything about this show is fucked. I'd get into it more, but I don't want to rant more or derail the thread.

[Planetnamek]

There's no such thing as a non-political piece of media though, everything is political like it or not. I get being bothered by changes though, sometimes they are necessary because sometimes very Japanese specific things like puns or wordplay simply will not translate well into English.

[MuscleRobo]

There's no such thing as a non-political piece of media though, everything is political like it or not. I get being bothered by changes though, sometimes they are necessary because sometimes very Japanese specific things like puns or wordplay simply will not translate well into English.

So because sometimes they are necessary we should just give up? What's the point of even bringing that up? Tokyopop changed "The Program" in their Battle Royale manga from a government project to a reality show which caused a lot of plot holes. Stuff like this is stupid and they need to give us as direct a translation as possible. Kick out the "editor" friend of yours who is having trouble getting a job and give us as direct a sub translation as possible straight from the translator that's why people listen to the Japanese track! Meme it up in the dub if you want because at least the original would be left alone. If you're editing the script you should be bilingual that way you can go back to the Japanese, it's somehow become an awful game of telephone with only one additional person "helping" adapt the script. Politics has nothing to do with wanting an accurate translation whether it's Kanpeki no Kantai or Wandering Son just give me the original author intent and I'll decide if I want to see it or not without having to worry about what the middleman is ruining. That's like saying "Well, some people build crappy roofs." Well I want a good roof and a job done accurately.

[Planetnamek]

There's no such thing as a non-political piece of media though, everything is political like it or not. I get being bothered by changes though, sometimes they are necessary because sometimes very Japanese specific things like puns or wordplay simply will not translate well into English.

So because sometimes they are necessary we should just give up? What's the point of even bringing that up? Tokyopop changed "The Program" in their Battle Royale manga from a government project to a reality show which caused a lot of plot holes. Stuff like this is stupid and they need to give us as direct a translation as possible. Kick out the "editor" friend of yours who is having trouble getting a job and give us as direct a sub translation as possible straight from the translator that's why people listen to the Japanese track! Meme it up in the dub if you want because at least the original would be left alone. If you're editing the script you should be bilingual that way you can go back to the Japanese, it's somehow become an awful game of telephone with only one additional person "helping" adapt the script. Politics has nothing to do with wanting an accurate translation whether it's Kanpeki no Kantai or Wandering Son just give me the original author intent and I'll decide if I want to see it or not without having to worry about what the middleman is ruining. That's like saying "Well, some people build crappy roofs." Well I want a good roof and a job done accurately.

Sometimes it's better if a dub dramatically changes things though, take Ghost Stories for example, it was not particularly well-liked when it originally aired in Japan and was considered average at best, but the dub took things in a whole new direction and made into a hilarious gag dub and many agree it's light years better then the original, The only stipulations made by it's creator were that the dub could not alter the ghosts or the methods used to defeat them, but everything else was totally fair game.

[MuscleRobo]

There's no such thing as a non-political piece of media though, everything is political like it or not. I get being bothered by changes though, sometimes they are necessary because sometimes very Japanese specific things like puns or wordplay simply will not translate well into English.

So because sometimes they are necessary we should just give up? What's the point of even bringing that up? Tokyopop changed "The Program" in their Battle Royale manga from a government project to a reality show which caused a lot of plot holes. Stuff like this is stupid and they need to give us as direct a translation as possible. Kick out the "editor" friend of yours who is having trouble getting a job and give us as direct a sub translation as possible straight from the translator that's why people listen to the Japanese track! Meme it up in the dub if you want because at least the original would be left alone. If you're editing the script you should be bilingual that way you can go back to the Japanese, it's somehow become an awful game of telephone with only one additional person "helping" adapt the script. Politics has nothing to do with wanting an accurate translation whether it's Kanpeki no Kantai or Wandering Son just give me the original author intent and I'll decide if I want to see it or not without having to worry about what the middleman is ruining. That's like saying "Well, some people build crappy roofs." Well I want a good roof and a job done accurately.

Sometimes it's better if a dub dramatically changes things though, take Ghost Stories for example, it was not particularly well-liked when it originally aired in Japan and was considered average at best, but the dub took things in a whole new direction and made into a hilarious gag dub and many agree it's light years better then the original, The only stipulations made by it's creator were that the dub could not alter the ghosts or the methods used to defeat them, but everything else was totally fair game.

ADV left accurate subs for Ghost Stories so that doesn't matter. Also Ghost Stories was very popular in Japan frequently beating out shows like Shin Chan, Doraemon and Sazae San. I don't want to get into the Ghost Stories discussion because the issue at hand is losing the original work. You can switch Ghost Stories to Japanese and turn on the subs and have the original work. You can't do that with some funimation releases. I just want the option to have the original work which I don't think is asking too much. It comes down to them not respecting the product. Even if they had accurate subtitles do you think they'd give a joke dub to Battle Royale or Fuchi ni Tatsu with ironic racisms just for the fun of it?

[Planetnamek]

Uh actually Funimation HAS been including the original subbed versions of DBZ on their DVDs for like two decades now, so not sure what you're talking about there