I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Kokonoe » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:11 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:05 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:41 pm
You go to shonen for romance? Thank god they don't put that in, not even Naruto and Dragon Ball does that despite having pairings. Romance is ill-fitting.
I expect works--especially long works--to have well rounded elements, that means some romance to them. Naruto has it's issues in beating around the bush for too long but at least its romantic arcs are satisfying.
Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:41 pm
Also shame you stopped on Fishman Island when that arc literally is about the various layers of racism and how hatred is developed. You missed out on one of the most socially progressive arcs in the series.
I read the arc up to its ending. Oda's messy art is hard on my eyes and and I find him completely unrelatable and annoying as a personality as reflected in his comic and his interviews. Hence, I stopped following the franchise.
Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:41 pm
Also read the manga no one cares about the anime. Manga is always better.
What, in general? A lot of directors are better directors than the comic creators are comic creators.
So wasting the plot for mediocre romance is called being well rounded? You know how boring that would be if Luffy was out here trying to express his feelings for Nami and everything? That'd waste so much time. I much prefer developing the characters than inferior romance subplots like Naruto that aren't even written well. The women in Naruto are terribly written in this regard, Sakura is just a onahole and Hinata is mindless without Naruto.

Completely butchered those two characters.

Messy art? If you are referring to the manga and not just the anime then you should get your eyes checked cause Oda's art is pretty godtier in placement.

For One Piece? Toei is garbage and went the budget route at a certain point until Wano where they gave it the Super Broly look.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:13 pm

People have an irrational hatred of deliberately cartoony art styles. I don't understand it myself and it doesn't make any sense but that's just how they are.
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:14 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:54 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:36 pm
Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:31 am


The difference is that One Piece is getting to its endgame (despite taking a long time), unlike Pokemon which has been in the same place it started at for 20+ years.
Pokémon is a video game first and foremost. The anime is a promotional tool.

And there is no good narrative reason for any series that supposedly has an ending in mind to go for 1500 episodes. It doesn't take that long to develop the characters and the world.
There are novel series that total millions of words and are considered classics.
I don't know what that comes out to page wise or what series they are. Also, I've seen and read many classics that I don't think are worthy of their reputation.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Kokonoe » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:14 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:13 pm
People have an irrational hatred of deliberately cartoony art styles. I don't understand it myself and it doesn't make any sense but that's just how they are.
Haha which is funny cause Dragon Ball is very cartoony!
Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:07 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:42 am
It's remained consistent the entire time.
Wait, so it stays this bad the whole way through?
Hey this isn't about Dragon Ball Super.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:15 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:54 pm
tal millions of words and are considered classics.
which isn’t even in the same ballpark of being an ongoing comic book/cartoon series that’s been going forever non-stop for 20+ years

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Kokonoe » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:16 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:15 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:54 pm
tal millions of words and are considered classics.
which isn’t even in the same ballpark of being an ongoing comic book/cartoon series that’s been going forever non-stop for 20+ years
Try reading it :)

But I know Dragon Ball fans tend to not read any other mangas.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:18 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:58 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:36 pm
Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:31 am


The difference is that One Piece is getting to its endgame (despite taking a long time), unlike Pokemon which has been in the same place it started at for 20+ years.
Pokémon is a video game first and foremost. The anime is a promotional tool.

And there is no good narrative reason for any series that supposedly has an ending in mind to go for 1500 episodes. It doesn't take that long to develop the characters and the world.
There is.

Because unlike what you're accustomed to, Oda is a master of world building and giving more than just the main character the spotlight.

Essentially one of the biggest appeal is how the world feels alive and fleshed out, this requires many chapters to properly express in a realistic way. There is not a single shonen out there that has a world as fleshed out and diverse like One Piece.

If you aren't in the mood to read that many chapters that's fine but it's hella good.
He's not a master. Masters know the story is about the characters, not the world. Art requires selectivity. Masters don't put the cart before the horse. Worlds feeling alive when it feels like there's a world beyond the frame, not because you see every square inch of it. Even with an ensemble getting the spotlight, you don't need 1500 episodes! The Good Place feels like a fully realized world and it's a percent of a percent of the length of OP.

World building is only interesting so far as it impacts the characters and their goals. The Wire had great world building because it was all about how the institutions create and impede the war on drugs and thus the characters we are following.
Last edited by ABED on Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Kokonoe » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:20 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:18 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:58 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:36 pm
Pokémon is a video game first and foremost. The anime is a promotional tool.

And there is no good narrative reason for any series that supposedly has an ending in mind to go for 1500 episodes. It doesn't take that long to develop the characters and the world.
There is.

Because unlike what you're accustomed to, Oda is a master of world building and giving more than just the main character the spotlight.

Essentially one of the biggest appeal is how the world feels alive and fleshed out, this requires many chapters to properly express in a realistic way. There is not a single shonen out there that has a world as fleshed out and diverse like One Piece.

If you aren't in the mood to read that many chapters that's fine but it's hella good.
He's not a master. Masters know the story is about the characters, not the world. Art requires selectivity. Masters don't put the cart before the horse. Worlds feeling alive when it feels like there's a world beyond the frame, not because you see every square inch of it. Even with an ensemble getting the spotlight, you don't need 1500 episodes! The Good Place feels like a fully realized world and it's a percent of a percent of the length of OP.
Yep he's a master. But he's telling something once again you aren't accustomed to. You want what every other series does, that kind of pace, but that's not Oda and that's not what One Piece is trying to be.

If he could end it sooner he would but he cares that much about the world and characters so it's gone on this long.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:21 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:16 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:15 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:54 pm
tal millions of words and are considered classics.
which isn’t even in the same ballpark of being an ongoing comic book/cartoon series that’s been going forever non-stop for 20+ years
Try reading it :)

But I know Dragon Ball fans tend to not watch any other anime.
Ignoring the shonen/selling toys crap from when I was a kid (so I’m excluding anything that aired on Toonami/Adult Swim/Fox Kids/Kidswb from the 90s-mid 2000s I’ve seen Akira, Perfect Blue, and Tokyo Godfather, and Devilman The Birth OVA. And I’ve given the effort to My Hero Academia (and as such no longer trust anyone when they say x shonen anime is a classic)

So yeah I don’t watch much anime outside of Dragon Ball but I do try to treat anime like any other medium. One Piece with its hideous art style and never ending story just doesn’t appeal to me .

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Kokonoe » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:22 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:21 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:16 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:15 pm


which isn’t even in the same ballpark of being an ongoing comic book/cartoon series that’s been going forever non-stop for 20+ years
Try reading it :)

But I know Dragon Ball fans tend to not watch any other anime.
Ignoring the shonen/selling toys crap from when I was a kid (so I’m excluding anything that aired on Toonami/Adult Swim/Fox Kids/Kidswb from the 90s-mid 2000s I’ve seen Akira, Perfect Blue, and Tokyo Godfather, and Devilman The Birth OVA. And I’ve given the effort to My Hero Academia (and as such no longer trust anyone when they say x shonen anime is a classic)

So yeah I don’t watch much anime outside of Dragon Ball but I do try to treat anime like any other medium. One Piece with its hideous art style and never ending story just doesn’t appeal to me .
Well least there's the honesty!

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:24 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:11 pm
So wasting the plot for mediocre romance is called being well rounded? You know how boring that would be if Luffy was out here trying to express his feelings for Nami and everything? That'd waste so much time. I much prefer developing the characters than inferior romance subplots like Naruto that aren't even written well. The women in Naruto are terribly written in this regard, Sakura is just a onahole and Hinata is mindless without Naruto.
Actually, yes. I would love to see romantic scenes of Luffy and Nami holding hands, kissing, talking about their likes and dislikes and trying on clothes together between plot-heavy scenes. It would be majorly refreshing and relatable. Throw in scenes of Robin struggling with deciding if she wants to subject children to her life on the run from the government with Franky--the leader of the Franky Family--there to support her.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:25 pm

Or, and I'm just throwing this out there, the reason I like what I like is because of exhausting world building. You have no idea why I like what I like or what I've read. I come to my opinions because I have experience with long running stories that spent inordinate amounts of time exploring their world, and I find it boring and poor storytelling. It misses the point.
If he could end it sooner he would but he cares that much about the world and characters so it's gone on this long.
Lots of series go past their expiration date because the people like working on it. It becomes a great job and not a story. I don't fault them for that. I can't say I wouldn't make the same call.

By the sounds of it, if Breaking Bad took this approach we'd get every nook and cranny of that world explored and in excruciating detail. We'd see exactly what went down between Walt and Gretchen & Elliot. Nothing would need to be inferred by the audience. We'd all be worse off for it.
Last edited by ABED on Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by 10gigtriforce » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:26 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:07 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:42 am
It's remained consistent the entire time.
Wait, so it stays this bad the whole way through?
No, some times its even more drawn out.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Kokonoe » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:27 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:24 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:11 pm
So wasting the plot for mediocre romance is called being well rounded? You know how boring that would be if Luffy was out here trying to express his feelings for Nami and everything? That'd waste so much time. I much prefer developing the characters than inferior romance subplots like Naruto that aren't even written well. The women in Naruto are terribly written in this regard, Sakura is just a onahole and Hinata is mindless without Naruto.
Actually, yes. I would love to see romantic scenes of Luffy and Nami holding hands, kissing, talking about their likes and dislikes and trying on clothes together between plot-heavy scenes. It would be majorly refreshing and relatable. Throw in scenes of Robin struggling with deciding if she wants to subject children to her life on the run from the government with Franky--the leader of the Franky Family--there to support her.
And if it was done in the way Naruto was done then the characters would be entirely defined by that romance.

Sakura being the main heroine who is constantly on Sasuke's dick despite being attempted murder by him numerous times and him trying to kill her friends = a story of stay with your abuser and it'll work out.

Hinata = No mind outside of Naruto. She isn't offensive but she's also so empty she practically is offensive.

I'd rather not Nami and Robin be bound by this.

So once again if we're using Naruto as the basis that would be horrible. Do you have another shonen you know where the romance is actually decent? Maybe that would be a better example.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:33 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:27 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:24 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:11 pm
So wasting the plot for mediocre romance is called being well rounded? You know how boring that would be if Luffy was out here trying to express his feelings for Nami and everything? That'd waste so much time. I much prefer developing the characters than inferior romance subplots like Naruto that aren't even written well. The women in Naruto are terribly written in this regard, Sakura is just a onahole and Hinata is mindless without Naruto.
Actually, yes. I would love to see romantic scenes of Luffy and Nami holding hands, kissing, talking about their likes and dislikes and trying on clothes together between plot-heavy scenes. It would be majorly refreshing and relatable. Throw in scenes of Robin struggling with deciding if she wants to subject children to her life on the run from the government with Franky--the leader of the Franky Family--there to support her.
And if it was done in the way Naruto was done then the characters would be entirely defined by that romance.

Sakura being the main heroine who is constantly on Sasuke's dick despite being attempted murder by him numerous times and him trying to kill her friends = a story of stay with your abuser and it'll work out.

Hinata = No mind outside of Naruto. She isn't offensive but she's also so empty she practically is offensive.

I'd rather not Nami and Robin be bound by this.

So once again if we're using Naruto as the basis that would be horrible. Do you have another shonen you know where the romance is actually decent? Maybe that would be a better example.
Maybe you should try not thinking up responses based on strawmen and reply to the content of the posts I actually make.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Kokonoe » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:37 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:33 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:27 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:24 pm


Actually, yes. I would love to see romantic scenes of Luffy and Nami holding hands, kissing, talking about their likes and dislikes and trying on clothes together between plot-heavy scenes. It would be majorly refreshing and relatable. Throw in scenes of Robin struggling with deciding if she wants to subject children to her life on the run from the government with Franky--the leader of the Franky Family--there to support her.
And if it was done in the way Naruto was done then the characters would be entirely defined by that romance.

Sakura being the main heroine who is constantly on Sasuke's dick despite being attempted murder by him numerous times and him trying to kill her friends = a story of stay with your abuser and it'll work out.

Hinata = No mind outside of Naruto. She isn't offensive but she's also so empty she practically is offensive.

I'd rather not Nami and Robin be bound by this.

So once again if we're using Naruto as the basis that would be horrible. Do you have another shonen you know where the romance is actually decent? Maybe that would be a better example.
Maybe you should try not thinking up responses based on strawmen and reply to the content of the posts I actually make.
Guess you can just call me a Straw Hat! :D

Jokes aside. Elaborate how it's a strawman to criticize your criticism? You claimed Naruto as a prime example of romance you would like to see, and I'm telling you how it destroyed two characters in Naruto.
ABED wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:25 pm
Or, and I'm just throwing this out there, the reason I like what I like is because of exhausting world building. You have no idea why I like what I like or what I've read. I come to my opinions because I have experience with long running stories that spent inordinate amounts of time exploring their world, and I find it boring and poor storytelling. It misses the point.
If he could end it sooner he would but he cares that much about the world and characters so it's gone on this long.
Lots of series go past their expiration date because the people like working on it. It becomes a great job and not a story. I don't fault them for that. I can't say I wouldn't make the same call.

By the sounds of it, if Breaking Bad took this approach we'd get every nook and cranny of that world explored and in excruciating detail. We'd see exactly what went down between Walt and Gretchen & Elliot. Nothing would need to be inferred by the audience. We'd all be worse off for it.
Except it's done in a way in One Piece where it's actually enjoyable? This is not about every nook and cranny but more of that there are many cultures and islands in One Piece's world that need time to express. Like this takes place all across the planet in this manga, it is very atypical.

The only thing I could really akin it to is the adventure aspect of the original Dragon Ball series, but the entire series is like that instead of having a "Z" where it starts getting straight to the fights on a consistent basis. And the scale is larger because they are looping around the entire planet. They aren't exploring every single island, there are actually many islands we'll never get to see, but once again each island has it's own culture, their own people.

It's certainly interesting in a way I haven't seen expressed in other not just shonen but manga in general.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:48 pm

It doesn't need this much time. At a certain point we get it. It's just the same song, different verse.

I'm not even saying it's bad or I wouldn't enjoy parts of it, but I know I would eventually grow bored by it because it's too busy exploring things that don't require exploring instead of getting to the damn point of a story - to get the audience emotionally invested.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:03 pm

I don't think using One Piece's length should be an argument against it. A lot of great books are over 1000 pages long, a lot of good TV series last multiple seasons. You may enjoy shorter, more concise narratives (so do I), but a work of art's length does not matter. You can criticize the way One Piece uses that time, however. It is definitely far too formulaic and repetitive.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:09 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:03 pm
I don't think using One Piece's length should be an argument against it. A lot of great books are over 1000 pages long,
Again, that’s a laughably bad comparison. 1 page on a book=/= one 20 minute television episode. At all.
a lot of good TV series last multiple seasons
They do, but most shows tend to drop in quality around the third-fifth season. It’s very rare for a series to go past 5 years and still be as good when it started or even better.

You may enjoy shorter, more concise narratives (so do I), but a work of art's length does not matter. You can criticize the way One Piece uses that time, however. It is definitely far too formulaic and repetitive.
I can criticize a series that has over 900 episodes and still going because its not the same as a novel being over 1000 pages or a show lasting for 3-5 seasons like so others on this thread appear to believe?

Dragon Ball is hardly concise with its decade run.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Zephyr » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:16 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:09 pm
Again, that’s a laughably bad comparison. 1 page on a book=/= one 20 minute television episode. At all.
Look, man, sometimes it takes me 20 minutes to read a single page, alright?

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