I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:08 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:49 pm
One Piece, though? Really meticulous world-building is cute, but every amateur Dungeon Master engages in it, myself included. It's not novel. It's not interesting by itself. It's certainly not a substitute for anything else. Just because it's given life on a page with really bad art doesn't really elevate it either (if you think Oda's drawings look good, that's fine, we'll agree to disagree).
It's not agree to disagree. Just because you dislike the style does not make it ugly or bad and people need to start crawling out of their own ass over this stuff. I'm tired of seeing cartoons and comics belittled over this. One Piece is saccharine to the point it looks like it gives people diabetes but that does not make the art "ugly" or "bad." That's just the aethestic Oda has chosen to pursue in his story. When Mark Twain chose to tell The Prince and The Pauper in an overly flowery, posh prose, that did not make the writing "bad."
ABED wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:27 pm
I know what you meant and I disagree. They don't have to plan, just give themselves enough time to make it seem like they did or better yet, pay attention to what they wrote and be able to take advantage to unintentional plants. If they have a plan, it should be loose so they can pivot when a better or more organic idea presents itself, which it almost always inevitably does. Your analogy is falty. That's basic strategy in a fight - don't get hit. It's not like planning ahead.
That doesn't work. Even for stories with low audience expectations (soap operas, telenovellas, whatever the fuck The OC would count as) writing rooms have to constantly bring in new writers to replace the ones they've burnt out with that approach. And that's on top of buying scripts from pilots and failed shows to modify for their own uses. Writing by the seat of your pants and throwing away planning is exhausting.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:12 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:49 pm
I think Dragon Ball went on just long enough to organically grow from a simple comedy story into a simple action story, all while building up a sufficiently predictable and self-serious story pattern so as to have a nice rug to pull out from under the readers. It's a comedy story that uses a very extensive increase in action and self-seriousness as, essentially, set up for the punchline that is its final arc. This cements the work itself ontologically as a joke whose butt is its very own fan following.
If this is true, then that's annoying. DB got more earnest but it never took itself too seriously. And any series that starts getting that meta that it makes its fans the butt of the joke is obnoxiously self indulgent. This all feels like someone making a point they think is brilliant but lacks actual substance. The Buu arc might poke fun at the overuse of certain tropes, but it's never turning the focus on the fans even subtly.
That doesn't work. Even for stories with low audience expectations (soap operas, telenovellas, whatever the fuck The OC would count as) writing rooms have to constantly bring in new writers to replace the ones they've burnt out with that approach. And that's on top of buying scripts from pilots and failed shows to modify for their own uses. Writing by the seat of your pants and throwing away planning is exhausting.
It does work. What's your basis for this statement? Hell, plenty of great thrillers are written like this because the writers have almost an instinct for structure. Like how meticulous are these plans you're talking about? On the opposite end, planning too much can feel like the narrative is just hitting some planned out beats regardless if they make sense because it's all part of the plan.

The OC is a teen drama, clearly.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Zephyr » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:44 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:08 pm
Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:49 pm
One Piece, though? Really meticulous world-building is cute, but every amateur Dungeon Master engages in it, myself included. It's not novel. It's not interesting by itself. It's certainly not a substitute for anything else. Just because it's given life on a page with really bad art doesn't really elevate it either (if you think Oda's drawings look good, that's fine, we'll agree to disagree).
It's not agree to disagree. Just because you dislike the style does not make it ugly or bad and people need to start crawling out of their own ass over this stuff. I'm tired of seeing cartoons and comics belittled over this. One Piece is saccharine to the point it looks like it gives people diabetes but that does not make the art "ugly" or "bad." That's just the aethestic Oda has chosen to pursue in his story.
It, in fact, is, because, well....I disagree.

And you've got it backwards, I don't like the style because I think it looks like dogshit. It can look like dogshit to serve a specific function, and that's fine, but it serving that specific function doesn't help me in particular get over how fucking awful it looks. Much in the same way "Toriyama stuntin' on the stupid fans" is a reason for its length and slapdash writing style, but knowing that might not help some people get over the length or the writing (see: ABED above; he thinks it's obnoxiously self-indulgent, I think it's fucking hilarious, and we can both be right relative to our own tastes). And that's fine. Some works don't click for some people.

I should also clarify/elaborate that it's not just poking at the fans that I find so hilarious, but that so much of the action and seriousness is ultimately used in service of comedy. I'm not even excluding myself from "the dumb fans"; I was a kid growing up with the story just like everyone else, and the component of the story about Martial Artists Talking With Their Fists is, and always has been, genuinely badass to me. Dragon Ball is as funny as it is because it gets as cool as it does, and that's both really funny, and really cool, and that's genuinely philosophically novel to me, entirely apart from bottomless well of nostalgia I have for it.
Last edited by Zephyr on Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:51 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:08 pm
Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:49 pm
One Piece, though? Really meticulous world-building is cute, but every amateur Dungeon Master engages in it, myself included. It's not novel. It's not interesting by itself. It's certainly not a substitute for anything else. Just because it's given life on a page with really bad art doesn't really elevate it either (if you think Oda's drawings look good, that's fine, we'll agree to disagree).
It's not agree to disagree. Just because you dislike the style does not make it ugly or bad and people need to start crawling out of their own ass over this stuff.

Art is subjective. The art for One Piece is hideous. In my subjective opinion.

But ya know subject to opinion and what know. I think Noako Takeuchi’s art for Sailor Moon is ugly as sin and looked derpy on a good day and the 90s anime had to revamp the designs to look appealing. But a lot of Sailor Moon fans apparently like the art.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:04 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:15 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:54 pm
tal millions of words and are considered classics.
which isn’t even in the same ballpark of being an ongoing comic book/cartoon series that’s been going forever non-stop for 20+ years
Why not? Because novels are different? Some authors have written serialized stories for much longer than that.

Look, I don't care if people like or dislike One Piece. Personally, I like it. But if you're going to dislike it, at least have a valid reason. 'It's long so it's bad' is just dumb. If the art isn't your cup of tea or you wish it had more romance, that's fine though.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:08 pm

We're not saying it's bad because it's long. That's reductive and a reductive reading of our opinion.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:14 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:44 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:08 pm
Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:49 pm
One Piece, though? Really meticulous world-building is cute, but every amateur Dungeon Master engages in it, myself included. It's not novel. It's not interesting by itself. It's certainly not a substitute for anything else. Just because it's given life on a page with really bad art doesn't really elevate it either (if you think Oda's drawings look good, that's fine, we'll agree to disagree).
It's not agree to disagree. Just because you dislike the style does not make it ugly or bad and people need to start crawling out of their own ass over this stuff. I'm tired of seeing cartoons and comics belittled over this. One Piece is saccharine to the point it looks like it gives people diabetes but that does not make the art "ugly" or "bad." That's just the aethestic Oda has chosen to pursue in his story.
It, in fact, is, because, well....I disagree.

And you've got it backwards, I don't like the style because I think it looks like dogshit. It can look like dogshit to serve a specific function, and that's fine, but it serving that specific function doesn't help me in particular get over how fucking awful it looks. Much in the same way "Toriyama stuntin' on the stupid fans" is a reason for its length and slapdash writing style, but knowing that might not help some people get over the length or the writing (see: ABED above; he thinks it's obnoxiously self-indulgent, I think it's fucking hilarious, and we can both be right relative to our own tastes). And that's fine. Some works don't click for some people.

I should also clarify/elaborate that it's not just poking at the fans that I find so hilarious, but that so much of the action and seriousness is ultimately used in service of comedy. I'm not even excluding myself from "the dumb fans"; I was a kid growing up with the story just like everyone else, and the component of the story about Martial Artists Talking With Their Fists is, and always has been, genuinely badass to me. Dragon Ball is as funny as it is because it gets as cool as it does, and that's both really funny, and really cool, and that's genuinely philosophically novel to me, entirely apart from bottomless well of nostalgia I have for it.
You keep making it sound like that is in fact what he was doing. It's not. That's your inference. It is absolutely indulgent if you make your story more earnest and serious only to say "Hah! Joke's on you for investing in any of this." The whole point of a story is to get a reader to invest. Give me examples of how it is all in service of a joke at the expense of fans? Hanging a lampshade doesn't qualify.
Some authors have written serialized stories for much longer than that.
Such as?

The reason length is an issue is given how serialized it is, the logical inference is it's driving towards something but there is no possible way that progress is anything but glacial. To keep it going, the author would have to tread water.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Zephyr » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:20 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:14 pm
That's your inference
This is correct.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:21 pm

Yeah, I'm not buying this idea that Toriyama's grand plan all along was to make this serious story for a couple of years and then make fun of it to own the readers. That's a Tavarano-level take.

What really happened was a burned out author retreating to his Dr. Slumpian roots as he threw shit at the wall.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:25 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:21 pm
Yeah, I'm not buying this idea that Toriyama's grand plan all along was to make this serious story for a couple of years and then make fun of it to own the readers. That's a Tavarano-level take.

What really happened was a burned out author retreating to his Dr. Slumpian roots as he threw shit at the wall.
I don't think Zephyr is arguing that he had planned it out, more-so he just decided to go "fuck it" once he had gotten tired of the series.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Zephyr » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:26 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:21 pm
Yeah, I'm not buying this idea that Toriyama's grand plan all along was to make this serious story for a couple of years and then make fun of it to own the readers. That's a Tavarano-level take.

What really happened was a burned out author retreating to his Dr. Slumpian roots as he threw shit at the wall.
I never said it was some grand plan. He was shooting the shit and accidentally made a sweet dunk, and I really dig it. That's it. That's all. I don't know how to convey this any more clearly.

It's okay if you don't read that out of Dragon Ball.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:33 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:04 pm
Why not? Because novels are different? Some authors have written serialized stories for much longer than that.
And some novel classics like the Count of Monte Cristo were originally made in a serialized format and only later published as one complete volume.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:51 pm
But ya know subject to opinion and what know. I think Noako Takeuchi’s art for Sailor Moon is ugly as sin and looked derpy on a good day and the 90s anime had to revamp the designs to look appealing. But a lot of Sailor Moon fans apparently like the art.
Because that was the style of shojo manga. The big eyes, the long limbs, pointy chins, no overt masculature or fat, and lack of perspective. Fans of shojo are obviously going to be into it as its the genre they're most interested in. And I don't like it either. I think it's disorienting to look at and the guys depicted would make better twinks than they do straight guys. But I'd no sooner mock it than the generic "anime" style most manga use (which itself gets trashed a lot by Western artists.)
Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:44 pm
And you've got it backwards, I don't like the style because I think it looks like dogshit. It can look like dogshit to serve a specific function, and that's fine, but it serving that specific function doesn't help me in particular get over how fucking awful it looks.
I get I'm probably way too in my feelings about this, but it just feels disrespectful to art to be this focused on whether art "looks good." Most art throughout history has looked like complete ass if we use present day sensibilities.
Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:26 pm
I never said it was some grand plan. He was shooting the shit and accidentally made a sweet dunk, and I really dig it. That's it. That's all.
It was a very sweet dunk. Also kinda inevitable. Dragon Ball was irreverant from day one so eventually the series would have to turn the critical eye on itself. Which makes the joke even better imo. Usually when a series becomes self aware it's to exam its legacy and impact. When Dragon Ball becomes self aware it's to blow a raspberry in the face of its fandom.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:45 pm

The Count of Monte Cristo was published only over a period of 2-3 years, and Dantes always has forward momentum in the story with a fixed goalpost of the four men who conspired to send him to prison. It was one singular concrete goal.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:51 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Why not? Because novels are different? Some authors have written serialized stories for much longer than that.
Please name a serialized story that has been going non-stop on a scheduled basis. Novels with 2-10 years between released dates don’t count and neither do stories published in magazine that went for a few year.


Look, I don't care if people like or dislike One Piece. Personally, I like it. But if you're going to dislike it, at least have a valid reason. 'It's long so it's bad' is just dumb. If the art isn't your cup of tea or you wish it had more romance, that's fine though.
To be clear I didn’t say One Piece was bad. I said I can’t imagine it’s worthwhile while having 900+ episodes and going non stop for 22 years.

The art is ugly too but that doesn’t make it bad.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:04 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:51 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Why not? Because novels are different? Some authors have written serialized stories for much longer than that.
Please name a serialized story that has been going non-stop on a scheduled basis. Novels with 2-10 years between released dates don’t count and neither do stories published in magazine that went for a few year.


Look, I don't care if people like or dislike One Piece. Personally, I like it. But if you're going to dislike it, at least have a valid reason. 'It's long so it's bad' is just dumb. If the art isn't your cup of tea or you wish it had more romance, that's fine though.
To be clear I didn’t say One Piece was bad. I said I can’t imagine it’s worthwhile while having 900+ episodes and going non stop for 22 years.

The art is ugly too but that doesn’t make it bad.
Way to impose arbitrary restrictions.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:09 pm

I wouldn't consider that arbitrary. No writing is easy, but the books that get released a year or several apart might be serialized, but they are released after they've gone through several drafts and plenty of editing. It's not as ambitious as a weekly manga that has to be written drawn and released every week per year.

And does it really need to be said that one self contained story being released over the course of 2-3 years is fundamentally different than releasing a weekly manga for several decades
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Zephyr » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:18 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:33 pm
I get I'm probably way too in my feelings about this, but it just feels disrespectful to art to be this focused on whether art "looks good." Most art throughout history has looked like complete ass if we use present day sensibilities.
I mean, that was only one part of my post. And I'm not talking about "present day" sensibilities, I'm talking about my own. There's plenty of non-contemporary art that looks nice to me. Oda's style of drawing people simply looks gross to me. That's not me saying it's "objectively bad", that's not me saying "Oda should feel bad", or "Oda should stop what he's doing", or "Oda should draw in a way that I like", or "anyone who likes the art is dumb".

I'm simply putting into words the reaction I have to the art, which is a reaction I both did not choose to have, and one that I'm perfectly allowed to have. If others don't share that reaction, that's just fine, because nobody is obligated to have the same point of view that I do.

And, yeah, a good story could compensate for bad visuals. But I was charging it with looking bad on top of, apparently, just being Oda's vehicle for exploring his D&D campaign setting. If it was just that I found his art repugnant, that wouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker, but the fact that I find his art repugnant on top of everything else about it not selling me is like some sort of reverse cherry on the...bottom.

That's the only reason I brought up his art.

Lastly, if "present day sensibilities" are relevant, then we can look at older art that looks like ass with more of a charitable eye than contemporary art that looks like ass. One might say that people back then had more of an excuse to draw badly. But, that's of course apart from the raw gut reaction we have to it. And, I dunno man, this looks sweet even to my modern day eyes, context or not:
Image
It was a very sweet dunk. Also kinda inevitable. Dragon Ball was irreverant from day one so eventually the series would have to turn the critical eye on itself. Which makes the joke even better imo. Usually when a series becomes self aware it's to exam its legacy and impact. When Dragon Ball becomes self aware it's to blow a raspberry in the face of its fandom.
I think that plays an important role in my point. Toriyama's got an irreverent style of humor. People reading "comic by guy who takes the piss out of everything" and letting themselves forget how much of a piss-taker he is.....is just funny. Toriyama succeeded in getting me to take his irreverent-ass seriously, and that speaks to his skill as a storyteller, I think. That he then weaponized his lazy formulaic shit for comedy speaks to his skill as a comedian, I think.

Put another way, some say comedy is about subverting expectations. I don't know what else "get into a formula and then turn it on its head at the 11th hour" is, if not that. I mean, I'm sure it's a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but Toriyama is a funny-man by trade. And he used his serious action shit in service of funny-man things. People will harp on how dumb Super Saiyan 3 looks, and how much it, Gotenks, and Gohan were "wasted potential", and, like, I dunno, it kinda feels like:
Image

That he never even really stops being irreverent, even as things get more serious, makes me, the reader, feel like "holy shit, I should have seen this coming, that's great".

And it's okay if nobody here thinks that's what he intended. It's okay if nobody here thinks that's even a thing on accident. It's okay if nobody thinks that would be funny even if it was a thing. That's not my problem. That's not anyone else's problem either. It's just, straight up, not a problem, if people get different things out of the same work. I'm not going to try to change anyone's mind on how to feel about it, because feelings aren't changed by arguments. All I can do is explain what I see when I look at the work, in the hopes that you guys see it too, and if you don't see it, well, that's completely fucking fine.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:26 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:04 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:51 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Why not? Because novels are different? Some authors have written serialized stories for much longer than that.
Please name a serialized story that has been going non-stop on a scheduled basis. Novels with 2-10 years between released dates don’t count and neither do stories published in magazine that went for a few year.


Look, I don't care if people like or dislike One Piece. Personally, I like it. But if you're going to dislike it, at least have a valid reason. 'It's long so it's bad' is just dumb. If the art isn't your cup of tea or you wish it had more romance, that's fine though.
To be clear I didn’t say One Piece was bad. I said I can’t imagine it’s worthwhile while having 900+ episodes and going non stop for 22 years.

The art is ugly too but that doesn’t make it bad.
Way to impose arbitrary restrictions.
It’s not arbitrary One Piece fans just don’t seem to understand false equivalency.


Yeah the show has 1000 episodes but uhhh some books have 1000 pages!!!

Yeah One Piece has been released monthly non-stop for 20+ years but uhh if you ignore the 2-3 year gap between release date some novels also have been released for over 2 decades

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:35 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:18 pm
snip
The Cave Paintings are aethestically very pleasing but I was referring more to stuff like Sumerian Prayer Statues.

Image

They're a much better representation of art throughout the years both because they're incredibly unappealing to look at and also because the creators weren't really all that invested in giving a potential audience something nice to look at.

And sorry for draging this on. I'm enough in the minority here that it's pretty obvious even to me that I'm just being way too sensitive on this topic.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Dr. Casey » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:58 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:49 pm
What about the story structure? Can anyone tell me where One Piece is at in its story? Is the climax in sight at all? Do we have any idea what the climax might look like? People joke about Berserk being on permanent hiatus and all that, but it's got a pretty clear climax that it's heading towards, and (at least in terms of chapter count) it isn't too far off; we're definitely much closer to the end than we are the beginning.
The climax is in sight, yeah. I actually don't like One Piece's structure much at all (it feels unstructured and messy, something that I thought within the first ~20 episodes of the anime when watching it back in 2006), but a climax is definitely in sight. The Straw Hats are searching for these four items (Rio Ponegylphs) whose combined writings will tell them the location of the One Piece, and they have obtained two of them. Oda said around last August that the series will end in five years or less, and doubled down on this by reiterating the same thing in November. (There's the old meme about how One Piece is "always halfway done," but I don't know if this is an exaggeration of a truth so much as just a complete untruth. I only remember him saying this once, in 2010. Which, if the series does conclude in 2024, was pretty much exactly right.)
Princess Snake avatars courtesy of Kunzait, Chibi Goku avatar from Velasa.

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