I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:07 pm

I don't know what else "get into a formula and then turn it on its head at the 11th hour" is, if not that.
Then you don't know what that is. It wasn't insulting the fans or making them the but of the joke. Turning conventions on their heads has several motivations - to poke fun at a cliché, acknowledging that the author used something a few too many times, to amuse the reader by not allowing them to get ahead of the author... The idea that he spent 10 years of setting up the story for this punchline is inherently absurd.

In Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang, the Russian roulette scene wasn't about ribbing the audience or even winking at them, it was to get a laugh and to catch them off guard because we all know that trope.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by kemuri07 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:11 pm

I think the question is more "Should One Piece be this long?" One Piece is, at the end of the day, a battle anime and I'm not sure that an anime of that caliber should even be that long.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:12 pm

And it's okay if nobody here thinks that's what he intended. It's okay if nobody here thinks that's even a thing on accident. It's okay if nobody thinks that would be funny even if it was a thing. That's not my problem. That's not anyone else's problem either. It's just, straight up, not a problem, if people get different things out of the same work. I'm not going to try to change anyone's mind on how to feel about it, because feelings aren't changed by arguments. All I can do is explain what I see when I look at the work, in the hopes that you guys see it too, and if you don't see it, well, that's completely fucking fine.
This isn't about seeing a perspective or opinion. You are attributing a motive to his storytelling. You aren't making a statement of fact.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:31 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:26 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:04 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:51 pm


Please name a serialized story that has been going non-stop on a scheduled basis. Novels with 2-10 years between released dates don’t count and neither do stories published in magazine that went for a few year.





To be clear I didn’t say One Piece was bad. I said I can’t imagine it’s worthwhile while having 900+ episodes and going non stop for 22 years.

The art is ugly too but that doesn’t make it bad.
Way to impose arbitrary restrictions.
It’s not arbitrary One Piece fans just don’t seem to understand false equivalency.


Yeah the show has 1000 episodes but uhhh some books have 1000 pages!!!

Yeah One Piece has been released monthly non-stop for 20+ years but uhh if you ignore the 2-3 year gap between release date some novels also have been released for over 2 decades
If you want to compare it to another manga, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure has been running for a decade longer.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:34 pm

I don't like One Piece at all, and I was only into it during the 2000s because everyone else was into it. I got up to when Ace died (I was reading weekly since 2002) and drop it right there. One Piece has some characters that I do enjoy Ace, Zorro, and Crocodile, but that's about it. I personally can't stand the rest of the characters in the show. The series over stays its welcome when you have so many chapters that go nowhere. I remember you have chapters of lots of standing and talking without adding much to the story. I also hate how the series wants people to think it is so mature because people die when the series is barely more mature than a typical Disney movie if you ask me.

It's fine if people enjoy the series, but I found myself disliking it as time goes on. I still take Dragon Ball over it because it does not have dumb friendship tropes and knows when to stop. Not to mention, I enjoy Toriyama's art style and his creative take on the Wuixa genre over Oda's work in my opinion.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Zephyr » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:40 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:07 pm
The idea that he spent 10 years of setting up the story for this punchline is inherently absurd.
I know for a fact that I've said this several times, but I could maybe say, one more time, that I am not suggesting that Toriyama was planning this.

I'm saying that, whether intended or not, it comes across, to me, that the serious escalation of the story, retroactively functions quite effectively as, the set up to the punch line.
ABED wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:12 pm
This isn't about seeing a perspective or opinion.
Jesus, dude.

This forum base is beyond exhausting to try and have a normal conversation with and you're like a microcosm of it. I'm Super done.

Have a nice day, all. Sorry for trying.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:42 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:31 pm
If you want to compare it to another manga, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure has been running for a decade longer.
Isn't the structure of that show that it spends one or a handful of years with one generation of the family? In effect, it's anthology series and can have as many seasons as it wants.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:44 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:40 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:07 pm
The idea that he spent 10 years of setting up the story for this punchline is inherently absurd.
I know for a fact that I've said this several times, but I could maybe say, one more time, that I am not suggesting that Toriyama was planning this.

I'm saying that, whether intended or not, it comes across, to me, that the serious escalation of the story, retroactively functions quite effectively as, the set up to the punch line.
ABED wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:12 pm
This isn't about seeing a perspective or opinion.
Jesus, dude.

This forum base is beyond exhausting to try and have a normal conversation with and you're like a microcosm of it. I'm Super done.

Have a nice day, all. Sorry for trying.
You aren't clear, as much as you might think you are, good lord.

As to your opinion I'm sorry to be blunt, but it's dumb. It's a terrible fucking joke. And you just come off as arrogant when you say things like it was all happening under their nose and they were "for real, look at the entire fandom, here and elsewhere, and how lost the entire fucking thing is on them". But you in your infinite wisdom see it. Of course you see it. You made it up! Then you have the gall to get pissy at me when you are acting like an arrogant jerk.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:52 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:31 pm
If you want to compare it to another manga, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure has been running for a decade longer.
This has nothing to do with anything but, I both love and hate JoJo. I hate it because I just find its humor and characters too grating to get into but I absolutely adore it when taking it as a whole. So many writers find a formula and stick to it but Araki has flat out changed everything at least once. The power system changes in Arc 3, the protag changes with each new story, and even the art undergoes a massive shift. I wish I did like the characters/story because there's so much to JoJo I don't doubt I could get lost in conversations about it. Unfortunately my tastes are just way too normie for it.
Zephyr wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:40 pm
Have a nice day, all. Sorry for trying.
:-(
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:00 pm

I love JoJo, too. I prefer the first two parts above all and think Part III and Jotarou are a big disappointment. Otherwise, I love how insane the battles become and how many twists they have. Cars, Dio Brando and Kira are such great main antagonists. I'd love to see Dragon Ball borrow more from JoJo.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:42 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:25 am
Sounds like One Piece needs its own Super Ultra Mega Kai
I'm 100% with you on that. Between having way too many fucking episodes for a TV series in general, horrible pacing for filler, and way too many fucking episodes for a TV series in general, it definitely needs a kai. I would be interested to see a kai where they simply fixed the pacing and cut out nearly all of the filler. It would still be monstrous, but just knowing that this is an ongoing anime that will have shit pacing and is 900+ episodes long kills me. I don't even care about an HD restoration of the earlier episodes or anything. I just want to see the story Oda has to tell without Toei's trademark characters staring at each other or 10 min episode recaps.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:05 am

One Piece is my 2nd favorite manga series behind Dragon Ball. Sure it is long but it adds to the overall epic adventure this series is trying to convey. Even at it's worst chapters, I still find joy which is the same I can not say for other shonen series like Naruto or Bleach. When they have bad chapters, they are bad.

Now the anime on the other hand, while I can still find joy in it, it's basically adapting a chapter an episode which bogs it down. It needs a kai treatment where adapting two chapters an episode makes it have a better flow.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:45 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:17 pm
If the writer or writing staff aren't thinking ahead the project will almost always fall apart. Writers need plans because they keep them grounded with clear milestones and goals for them to reach.
It's one thing to have plans and another to include said plans in the story. Toriyama always had plans, such as Namek when he started developing the 23rd Tenkaichi arc, he just decided to keep the focus on the tournament instead of letting everyone know there was some space dictator out there that would take attention away from Goku and Piccolo. The problem with setting things up too early is not only could they not turn out as good as you envisioned them, you could miss out on better opportunities because of being stuck tying up loose ends you had no business setting up so early. This happened to Toriyama when he had Freeza say he had 3 transformations to use, by the time he reached the 2nd one, he wished he didn't include that line as having that many forms sounded better in his head than it did in execution, which is why he rushed through the alien like form.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:09 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:45 am
It's one thing to have plans and another to include said plans in the story. Toriyama always had plans, such as Namek when he started developing the 23rd Tenkaichi arc, he just decided to keep the focus on the tournament instead of letting everyone know there was some space dictator out there that would take attention away from Goku and Piccolo. The problem with setting things up too early is not only could they not turn out as good as you envisioned them, you could miss out on better opportunities because of being stuck tying up loose ends you had no business setting up so early. This happened to Toriyama when he had Freeza say he had 3 transformations to use, by the time he reached the 2nd one, he wished he didn't include that line as having that many forms sounded better in his head than it did in execution, which is why he rushed through the alien like form.
I get your overall point but I don't really consider Freeza declaring how many forms he has "planning." That's just an unnecessary detail which is something all types of writers sometimes include. It doesn't have anything to do with planning except in as far as it was an idea the creator had, included, and then regreted.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:30 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:09 am
I get your overall point but I don't really consider Freeza declaring how many forms he has "planning." That's just an unnecessary detail which is something all types of writers sometimes include.
I know it's not the best example but it's the only one I could think of. My point is for you to think of that on a large scale. Imagine if Namek was built up early on, for example, if Fortune teller Baba mentioned that Goku would fight this terrifying alien who has an army on a distant planet. The problem is that idea might not turn out as good on paper as it was in the author's head, leaving him stuck with an idea that he could've easily left behind had he not jumped the gun and introduced it so early. There's also the risk of having everything before (4 whole arcs) seem like filler to the main event, because no matter what happens or what's said, we know Goku will be OK as he has yet to face the alien who was mentioned earlier.

An example I can think of in One Piece is Luffy's brother Ace. We were told very early on about how great he was, how he could beat Luffy without powers, and how he was the 2nd in command for the White Beard pirates...only for him to lose his only fight off screen then get killed before doing anything to earn that praise. I do think there were potential plans to have him be part of something major but it was dropped for one reason or another. The problem is that plans were changed after setting them up in the story, so there was no way to go back on them completely, resulting in a very disappointing character.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by sangofe » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:51 am

Kokonoe wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:33 am
Like in the things it does. Characters are more fleshed out, but it doesn't go the seinen route or anything it still is very much shonen and it has that silliness Dragon Ball has with the serious moments in-between.

But when the moments are serious...they just are more richer and more fulfilling. And when the moments are sillier they are more humorous.

There's also like a certain consistency that Dragon Ball seemed to never truly have that One Piece has.

I feel Oda learned much from Toriyama and from learning his ways ended up creating something far more quality. Dragon Ball is still memorable for being the first and it still is great to watch, just I feel One Piece completely overshadows it now.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:07 am

I don't think Piccolo and Kami speaking an alien language was a big plan he had as much as a plant that he felt he would eventually get around to explaining. It's a plan but a VERY tentative plan.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:10 am

Although one thing that can be said is, practically everything good about One Piece was done first in Dragonball.
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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by 90sDBZ » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:27 pm

I haven't watched that much anime beyond Dragon Ball, but I do watch and often really enjoy One Piece. I'm up to Ace's death, and found the "War of the best" to be some of the best episodes of the series I've seen so far.

I did watch Naruto for a bit, but ultimately found it to be too melodramatic. One Piece is definitely guilty of this too, but balances it out with plenty of goofy humour. The humour itself is hit and miss. Sometimes I find it hilarious, like in Skypiea when the usually serious Zoro randomly decides to do a Tarzan yell when swinging from the vines, or the part with that guy who looks like Sanji gets mistaken for him because of a bad drawing of him on his wanted poster. Stuff like that is genuinely funny.

At other times the humour doesn't really do it for me, but more often than not it works.

The pacing is inconsistent, at least in the anime. The Water 7/Enies Lobby arc had incredible buildup, but then came to a screeching halt with seemingly endless filler at one of the worst moments. But then the next arc Thriller Bark had very little filler, and was fun from start to finish. Other arcs like Alabasta and Skypiea were hurt by endless flashbacks of the same stuff over, and over, and over again.

I really like Luffy, although I can see why some would find him annoying. Zoro is one of the coolest characters in the series, and an all around badass.

Dragon Ball is still my favourite because it skips the melodrama, has better looking characters, and is more consistent with its humour. I don't mind the world building of One Piece, but I prefer the simplicity of Dragon Ball.

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Re: I've been thinking and honestly One Piece seems superior to Dragon Ball?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:04 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:10 am
Although one thing that can be said is, practically everything good about One Piece was done first in Dragonball.
You can say about almost anything including Dragon Ball. Most tropes, plot lines, and characters are centuries old.
Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:30 am
I know it's not the best example but it's the only one I could think of. My point is for you to think of that on a large scale. Imagine if Namek was built up early on, for example, if Fortune teller Baba mentioned that Goku would fight this terrifying alien who has an army on a distant planet. The problem is that idea might not turn out as good on paper as it was in the author's head, leaving him stuck with an idea that he could've easily left behind had he not jumped the gun and introduced it so early. There's also the risk of having everything before (4 whole arcs) seem like filler to the main event, because no matter what happens or what's said, we know Goku will be OK as he has yet to face the alien who was mentioned earlier.

An example I can think of in One Piece is Luffy's brother Ace. We were told very early on about how great he was, how he could beat Luffy without powers, and how he was the 2nd in command for the White Beard pirates...only for him to lose his only fight off screen then get killed before doing anything to earn that praise. I do think there were potential plans to have him be part of something major but it was dropped for one reason or another. The problem is that plans were changed after setting them up in the story, so there was no way to go back on them completely, resulting in a very disappointing character.
That One Piece example just sounds like a plot point not landing as well as the author hoped. There are always going to be good arcs and bad arc to a story and sometimes you'll need to brush aside an earlier plotpoint for the sake of moving forward.

I really don't want to fight about this and I've got enough people telling me I'm wrong that I doubt there's any headway to be made but

When writing there are ways to hint at future plans/events without handicapping yourself. Toriyama himself did it well when he had Baba announce Goku would save the world. There was no need to mention Piccolo becuase that's not something the audience needs to know. Information that doesn't actually enhance the audience's appreciation for a scene should usually be left out. Case in point, Freeza's three transformations. In that case it's a throwaway detail that doesn't make the stakes any more dire as the climax was always going to be whoever was left versus the final form. Planning wasn't Toriyama's problem here. (If it was a problem at all. Plenty of people seem to have liked the back and forth on Namek. I wasn't one of them but I wasn't really the target audience anyway)
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