"DragonBall GT" Answer Thread

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:28 pm

hello everyone. I know some of you might not like Dragon ball GT but I have always thought that the best about GT was that it left so many things to speak about and to answer. I have seen in many threads that many questions are mostly ignored so we can change that here.

If anyone has any questions maybe we can answer them.

First 2 questions: How powerful is small Goku really?
- At first I always believed that he was a little stronger than Goten and Trunks in the Buu Saga but from what I saw in GT he is just small for comedy and besides his body not letting him turn SSJ3 he is not too much weaker than he was in the end of Dragon ball Z.

2- How strong is bebi-Vegeta compared to SSJ levels? Does Super Bebi 3= SSJ3?
- I always saw Bebi-Vegeta (level 1) as Vegeta always in SSJ1 in power with Bebi-Vegeta 2 as SSJ2 and Bebi 3 as not SSJ3, but a little stronger than SSJ2.

Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:35 pm

Okay, let's see here...

[1] I'm pretty sure that Goku was just as powerful as a kid as he was as an adult at the start of the series. I think he only lost a little bit of strength just from the size difference. But only a little bit. It did seriously affect using SSj3, though.

[2] Ah, Babi-Vegeta. He was weird. It looks as though Babi takes someone over, and not only twists but enhances their powers. The idea of Babi-Vegeta's "forms" mirroring the Super Saiyan forms does kinda make sense. But, he was much stronger than any of the super Saiyans, even SSj3 Goku. So it would look as if they're Babi's own screwed-up, twisted, boosted versions of the Super Saiyan stages.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:45 pm

I agree with the #1 answer. It seems like the idea of Goku being a boy was more for comedy. Although there are moments where he is shown to be much weaker vs. Super Bebi 2 (one of best transformations I ever saw).

And we know for sure that Goku was much stronger than Vegeta in the end of Dragon ball Z. The time Vegeta was at his strongest was when he was Majin Vegeta and Goku could have easily beaten him with SSJ3.

I saw Majin Vegeta as similar to Gohan when he first turned SSJ2. They were special transformations and much stronger than they could transform when going normal later on (Gohan had let out all his potential at 1 moment and Vegeta the same with the Majin power). For that reason I always saw SSJ2 Gohan fighting Cell to be much stronger than SSJ2 Gohan as an adult or any other time. It is almost like he was as strong as Full Potential Gohan at the Buu saga when he went SSJ2 vs Cell.

Also this might be a GT error, but no one goes SSJ2 in the series ever. Maybe the 15-20 years of not fighting made them lose the skill of powering up like that. But anyways, Bebi-Vegeta 3 should be at the level of Buu saga Vegeta SSJ2 (at full power).

Wow, GT is confusing

Also, Goku being stronger than Vegeta as a boy is shown when he can fight with Super 17 a little better than Vegeta could in his own fight. (or maybe at the same level as he is later beaten without trouble.)
what do people think?

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:59 pm

Aoi wrote:Also this might be a GT error, but no one goes SSJ2 in the series ever. Maybe the 15-20 years of not fighting made them lose the skill of powering up like that.

Almost never. We definitely see Goku achieve and then pass the SSJ2 mark when he powers up to SSJ3 for the second time.

Speculation: Otherwise, while we never actually do see SSJ2, I'm loathe to believe that Vegeta and Gohan went up against Super 17 as regular SSJs. Particularly Gohan's line of, "It's been a long time since I've been this enraged from the bottom of my heart," or something like that makes me believe that they reached the higher power. No electricity, maybe, but you never know . . .

As for the rest:

Question 1: I would have given the same answer as SSJ Kaboom.

Question 2: Definitely more powerful than SSJ3. Like has been said before, it's possible that Baby was able to draw on Vegeta's latent abilities and surpass the normal barriers that kept him and Goku apart, since we know that Baby wasn't all that powerful on his own.

Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:55 pm

Yeah. It's nearly impossible to distinguish between SSj and SSj2 in GT.

For example, Goku has lightning bolts around him when he transforms against Ledgic, suggesting SSj2, but his hair suggests SSj. I believe Trunks had lightning when he transformed to get Babi out of him, too. I could be wrong about that one.

And the fight against Super 17 is a good point, too. It doesn't make sense for Vegeta and Gohan not to use Super Saiyan 2 (although only one should have been able to.).

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:53 pm

About Gohan and Vegeta not using SSJ2 vs. Super 17. There is a chance that they lost their ability to power up to SSJ2. But anyways they would not have had much of a chance vs Super 17 even in SSJ2 so maybe they just forgot to show the lightning.

The only way in GT to see how strong they are is by comparing with other characters.
For example: If Gotenks was stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta (by not too much but still stronger) then having Cyborg/Android 17 and Hell Fighter 17 (who are so much stronger than Trunks and Goten) would mean that Super 17 fusion would be incredibly stronger than any SSJ2. A SSJ1, like Trunks and Goten in GT, would have no chance.

-------------
For Bebi: I always imagine that Bebi adds his life force and helps raise the Ki of Vegeta/Gohan/Goten when he goes inside him.
By absorbing the Ki of all the characters, I always saw it that Bebi himself (inside Vegeta) was getting stronger and "infecting" or getting more of a hold of Vegeta (which is seen by having parts of Bebis body come out of Vegeta and finally have Vegeta be fully "infected" when he transforms the second time).
If you notice, every time Goku fights Bebi as SSJ3 (which I loved when Goku had the gold tail), Bebi is almost exactly the same power as when he was normal Bebi Vegeta.

What I mean to say is: I dont think Bebi was at a level of SSJ3 in his final transformation. (He DID become SSJ4 in power when he went Gold Oozaru)

Now I imagine that Bebi must have been SSJ1 or maybe a weak SSJ2 when Bebi became more powerful inside Vegeta with the saiyan power given to him. (remember it is not easy to stay SSJ2 for as long as it is to be SSJ1)
It would make sense for a normal Vegeta SSJ1 or 2 to beat a small Goku SSJ3. (So proves that Goku is not as strong as he was in the end of Z, but also not too much weaker)

You have to see all of the Bebi fights to decide. When he fights Uub (who should have the power of a SSJ1) he wins easy. When he fights Ubuu (Majuub in USA) he has much trouble but is in the end better than Majuub is but not by too much.
Majuub should have the power of a very weak version of Super Buu (who had both Buus in him but was much stronger because of his evil Ki). Super Buu was stronger than a SSJ2 and so Majuub should have much power like a weaker SSJ2 really.

So this means that Majuub is probably a normal SSJ2 strong (Like Adult Gohan which was not as strong as Gohan was when he went SSJ2 vs. Cell or when Vegeta went SSJ2 in Majin form). I cant believe that Majuub can equal SSJ2 Gohan vs. Cell in power.

But anyway with all that I think it can happen that Super Bebi 2 (final) is as strong as a very strong SSJ2.

----
fffeew That took a long time. I had to type this with a spell check to fix many mistakes. But anyways I really enjoy speaking about this and hearing everyones ideas.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:07 am

I have a new question that I cant decide on.

- Who was the most powerful villain in Dragon ball GT? This would mean in history of Dragon ball too.
Is it Super 17 (who is much higher than SSJ4 and can go with no limit)
or
The final dragon (Yi Xing Long)? Who was also much higher than SSJ4 but had advantage of negative ki that Super 17 its probable can not absorb?

(Super Bebi Oozaru was higher than SSJ4 Goku but I don't think as strong as the other two)

Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:37 am

Um...

Probably Super Yi Xing Long. SSj4 Goku and Vegeta couldn't even touch him until they fused. Super 17 absorbed so much ki that he came close, though.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:13 pm

Well if Super 17 fought SSJ4Gogeta, he would have the chance to be the strongest in the entire trilogy.
-Rick

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:18 pm

Couldn't Super 17 have absorbed Yi Xing Long's Ki blasts?
Hes a strange villain because he has no limits to stop growing.

Also I dont think Super 17 could have beaten SSJ4 Gogeta. If you remember he had a hard time absorbing SSJ4 Goku's 10X Kamahameha (he almost exploded).
A Big Bang Kamehameha from SSJ4 Gogeta would have completely destroyed Super 17.
They are very close I guess, but I dont think Super 17 could have absorbed Yi Xing Long's "minus energy" attack thing.

Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:44 pm

Aoi wrote:Couldn't Super 17 have absorbed Yi Xing Long's Ki blasts?
Hes a strange villain because he has no limits to stop growing.

Well, he could have. Super 17 definitely had the potential to grow that strong, so long as everyone kept on stupidly pumping ki into him. But I don't believe he ever quite reached Super Yi Xing Long's level. He sure came close, though, it seems.

Ex-Dubbie369 · Post by **Ex-Dubbie369** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:35 am

For Question 1, I actually believe Goku was stronger as a child in GT than him as an adult at the end of Z. Uub is a reincarnation of Kid Buu so has strength close to it, probably like Super Buu, and (as an adult at the beginning of GT) Goku didn't even transform to any SSJ form to fight him.

For Question 2, i definitely have to say that Bebi Vegeta was much stronger than any SSJ form except for SSJ4. I agree with Lemmy saying that Bebi broke some of Vegeta's barriers. I look at this as Majin Vegeta. When he became evil, he broke through a barrier and for the first time (at least in front of us) became a SSJ2. He was definitely superior to Goku (not counting SSJ3). This leads to the discussion of whether or not Vegeta could have beaten Goku if he remained as a bad guy. Maybe evil really makes him more powerful.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:15 pm

I agree 100% Ex-Dubbie.

1- Now that I think about it, Goku might have been as strong in dragon ball GT as he was in Z. The only reason I thought not was because of Goku not being able to punch Bebi Vegeta while SSJ3.
But later Vegeta wants to fight Goku as if he is at full power. Also Goku fights Super 17 as well as Vegeta did and maybe even better.

2- The reason I think Vegeta was strongest when Majin Vegeta is the same reason why Gohan was stronger as a child SSJ2 than as an adult.
The reason is because both had all their potentials released in 1 big moment. This explains why Vegeta is much weaker when SSJ2 after he was Majin Vegeta.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:45 pm

Aoi wrote:2- The reason I think Vegeta was strongest when Majin Vegeta is the same reason why Gohan was stronger as a child SSJ2 than as an adult.
The reason is because both had all their potentials released in 1 big moment. This explains why Vegeta is much weaker when SSJ2 after he was Majin Vegeta.

Without trying to go into a big power-level debacle, what makes you think Vegeta was weaker at SSJ2 than his Majin state? If you're comparing his power to that of his Majin form's "Fina Explosion", that doesn't really help much. Majin Vegeta's "Final Explosion" was literally every trace of Ki/energy/life/whatnot Vegeta had in him, so naturally that'd be more powerful than possibly a minimum-powered SSJ3. But when Vegeta had his body restored, he not only had access to SSJ2, but his power should've jumped a decent share due to dying in the extreme manner he did. Majin Vegeta battled Fat Buu and even his best attack couldn't kill him. SSJ2 Vegeta on the other hand battled Super Buu w/t Ultimate Gohan (and Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks) as well as Kid Buu; two forms far more powerful than fat Buu, and he was able to slightly hold his own (and in the anime universe/canon, it's clearly stated in both dub and Japanese version, Kid Buu is the most powerful form).

So you're sure Majin Vegeta was Vegeta's best? If so, show the evidence. From what I can tell, overall, SSJ4 would be when Vegeta is at his divine best.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:06 pm

Oh, Power Levels...

Vegeta very much was stronger under Babidi's spell because many evidences point to him having achieved Super Saiyan level 2 prior to the events of the Saiyaman/25'th Tenka'ichi Budokai events, meaning that to have gained no powerup under the spell would directly contradict the point of him letting himself fall under it.

The biggest piece of evidence being that Vegeta looked down on an Ssj2 Gohan and considered him "weak". He would have to be on or above that level to make such a remark, and could do no such thing without himself ascending.

If you would like to further this, let us begin another thread as to not derail this one.

It would probably be for the best not to get me going on a power level related debate. I've been sober on them for a long time.

Penguins!

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:52 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:
Aoi wrote:2- The reason I think Vegeta was strongest when Majin Vegeta is the same reason why Gohan was stronger as a child SSJ2 than as an adult.
The reason is because both had all their potentials released in 1 big moment. This explains why Vegeta is much weaker when SSJ2 after he was Majin Vegeta.
Without trying to go into a big power-level debacle, what makes you think Vegeta was weaker at SSJ2 than his Majin state? If you're comparing his power to that of his Majin form's "Fina Explosion", that doesn't really help much. Majin Vegeta's "Final Explosion" was literally every trace of Ki/energy/life/whatnot Vegeta had in him, so naturally that'd be more powerful than possibly a minimum-powered SSJ3. But when Vegeta had his body restored, he not only had access to SSJ2, but his power should've jumped a decent share due to dying in the extreme manner he did. Majin Vegeta battled Fat Buu and even his best attack couldn't kill him. SSJ2 Vegeta on the other hand battled Super Buu w/t Ultimate Gohan (and Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks) as well as Kid Buu; two forms far more powerful than fat Buu, and he was able to slightly hold his own (and in the anime universe/canon, it's clearly stated in both dub and Japanese version, Kid Buu is the most powerful form).

So you're sure Majin Vegeta was Vegeta's best? If so, show the evidence. From what I can tell, overall, SSJ4 would be when Vegeta is at his divine best.

That is a good argument Conan. But if I remember : Vegeta completely dominated fat Buu for several minutes in a very violent way as Majin Vegeta. The only reason he lost was because Buu kept healing/regenerate (is that the word?) while Vegeta cant as he is only a normal man/saiyan).

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:27 am

Duo wrote:Oh, Power Levels...

Vegeta very much was stronger under Babidi's spell because many evidences point to him having achieved Super Saiyan level 2 prior to the events of the Saiyaman/25'th Tenka'ichi Budokai events, meaning that to have gained no powerup under the spell would directly contradict the point of him letting himself fall under it.

The biggest piece of evidence being that Vegeta looked down on an Ssj2 Gohan and considered him "weak". He would have to be on or above that level to make such a remark, and could do no such thing without himself ascending.

If you would like to further this, let us begin another thread as to not derail this one.

It would probably be for the best not to get me going on a power level related debate. I've been sober on them for a long time.

Penguins!

I agree, it's best to talk about power levels on another thread.

- There is 1 question that many people have different opinions on and I'm interested in reading what people think.: Should the Super 17 saga be seen as different as the Evil Dragon Saga? Or are they both the same thing.

When I think of all the dragon ball sagas, none of them have ever seperated the same story into 2 sagas. For example: The Raditz saga is not different from the Saiyan saga. If it was 1 movie, it would just be the start.

Its interesting but I always saw the Super 17 and Evil Shenron saga as 1 story. The reason it confuses people is because they seem to have a different story.
But if you look closely:
1- All the themes are the same (The reason why everything is bad is because of the overuse of the dragon balls. This causes the natural order of the universe to change and after everything it causes all that happens to lead to the fight with Super 17 as hell opens up. And yes i remember that Hell Fighter 17 is the one who opens the portal but when Lord Enma says that he has no control and that "everything is changing and acting different", the camera shows the dragon balls cracked again.
2- The reason for the evil dragons is because of having the wish from the Super 17 battle. Its all the same story.

But : People who say it ISNT the same story can argue:
1- the Freeza saga is really the continuation of the Saiyan saga and happens because of what happened in the Saiyan saga after all.

Its interesting because its important to see how to view the final saga of Dragon ball. But I do think that the themes are equal in both sagas , which never happened in any dragon ball saga: Vegeta being jealous again of Goku starts in Super 17 and ends in Evil dragon.

Also I always saw that TOEI used this saga to try to be a final "goodbye" to Dragon ball by making it almost all fighting and having every character and villain appear in some way for the final story. (all the villains show 1 more time from all 3 dragon ball animes, and every character in dragon ball is given 1 final role to fill like: 18, Kurlin, Bulma, 17 ...

Also having both be seperate makes them worst as I feel they are not complete stories (the dragon saga just "Begins" out of nowhere and does not feel like its own story. But Super 17 by itself feels really like a regular Dragon ball Z movie with 1 quick fight and Goku saving the day.)
I always saw the Super 17 part as just a cool/fun start to the final Dragon ball saga.

Its pretty interesting to think about.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:33 pm

Well seems that question did not interest too many people.
But this one is probably the most important of all "GT" questions:

How does SSJ4 work? There have been many good theories I read on the net like : "It works kind of like Fusion", explaining the clothing.

I mean I know that TOEI wanted to make "GT" with the fairy tale elements of the original Dragon ball and wanted to make the new Goku a mixture of the young and old Goku (by having him be a child and adult).

But its odd how by powering up he can become an adult and also grow pants and new clothes.
Also one of the strangest moments in dragon ball history is when Vegeta not only loses his SSJ4 stage but also gains back his old clothing and loses his tail

.

What does anyone think about this?

Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:50 pm

Aoi wrote:How does SSJ4 work? There have been many good theories I read on the net like : "It works kind of like Fusion", explaining the clothing.

Ah... SSj4, my favorite. Let's see...

Like many things in GT, it's kind of confusing and plot-holey, but here's info on the stage the way I've always interpreted it.

Super Saiyan 4 is a Saiyan's ultimate, "most true" form. It's strength comes from the fact that it's a union of both sides of the Saiyan's power: The animalistic, savage side of Oozaru, and the more calm, quiet, humanoid power of Super Saiyan 1-3. This would explain both the appearance of SSj4 (Monkey-ish) and the means of first obtaining it (Gaining control over your mind and body when a Gold Oozaru).

Aoi wrote: I mean I know that TOEI wanted to make "GT" with the fairy tale elements of the original Dragon ball and wanted to make the new Goku a mixture of the young and old Goku (by having him be a child and adult).

But its odd how by powering up he can become an adult and also grow pants and new clothes.
Also one of the strangest moments in dragon ball history is when Vegeta not only loses his SSJ4 stage but also gains back his old clothing and loses his tail .

I believe it's because Saiyans gain magic-based abilities with SSj4, and upon transforming, give themselves the snappy new outfits (Like what Kami and the Kaios could do) Though the changing clothes back upon coming down from SSj4 still doesn't make sense.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:28 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Aoi wrote:How does SSJ4 work? There have been many good theories I read on the net like : "It works kind of like Fusion", explaining the clothing.
Ah... SSj4, my favorite. Let's see...

Like many things in GT, it's kind of confusing and plot-holey, but here's info on the stage the way I've always interpreted it.

Super Saiyan 4 is a Saiyan's ultimate, "most true" form. It's strength comes from the fact that it's a union of both sides of the Saiyan's power: The animalistic, savage side of Oozaru, and the more calm, quiet, humanoid power of Super Saiyan 1-3. This would explain both the appearance of SSj4 (Monkey-ish) and the means of first obtaining it (Gaining control over your mind and body when a Gold Oozaru).

Aoi wrote: I mean I know that TOEI wanted to make "GT" with the fairy tale elements of the original Dragon ball and wanted to make the new Goku a mixture of the young and old Goku (by having him be a child and adult).

But its odd how by powering up he can become an adult and also grow pants and new clothes.
Also one of the strangest moments in dragon ball history is when Vegeta not only loses his SSJ4 stage but also gains back his old clothing and loses his tail .
I believe it's because Saiyans gain magic-based abilities with SSj4, and upon transforming, give themselves the snappy new outfits (Like what Kami and the Kaios could do) Though the changing clothes back upon coming down from SSj4 still doesn't make sense.

hmm that makes sense.

I agree with what the ssJ4 is trying to be: a perfect evolution of the saiyan.
As for the clothing, I always saw it as a sort of "fusion". When they go from Gold Oozaru back to normal, its sort of a "compact" (is that the word?) of ki that causes an effect like Fusion (where a new body is made for a short time and the clothes reflects the personality like the fusion does with characters (but only with the earings as Vegetto).

But what I always saw as interesting is how SSJ4 does not seem too much more stronger than SSJ3 Goku. If you remember the fight vs. chibi Majin Buu, Goku was very very strong (his kamehameha cuts a planet in half at one point if i can remember).
Because SSJ4 is not in the same order or "line" as SSJ1 , SSJ2 and SSJ3 , there can be a thought that maybe SSJ4 is not THAT much stronger than SSJ3, but is for sure stronger.

Just how much stronger is SSJ4 do you think? Is it just a little stronger SSJ3 but with none of the hardship that comes with SSJ3?

Kanzenshuu

"DragonBall GT" Answer Thread

"DragonBall GT" Answer Thread

Who is online