Was the original premise of the Android arc better?

[90sDBZ]

I initially felt really excited for the arrival of the Androids. Trunks' warning, the way he described them, the idea of an apocalyptic future with unstoppable killing machines that could easily take down a Super Saiyan.

I was really excited for an all out battle between the Z Warriors and the Androids. At some point for me things lost momentum and went all over the place. 19 and 20 were interesting enough, and kind of creepy, and there was some great tension when Goku came down with the virus. Things seemed to get derailed right after Vegeta took out 19. It turned into a game of cat and mouse, and 17 and 18 didn't feel that threatening, maybe because they weren't really evil.

Cell's buildup and initial introduction were great, but it turned into a game of cat and mouse again, and wasn't really great again until the Cell Games. Although Piccolo vs 17 was a good fight, and Vegeta's Final Flash was a great moment.

I love the Cell Games and wouldn't change it for that alone, but part of me wonders what might have been had Toriyama's editor left him to it. Movie 7 doesn't seem to be very well liked, but I enjoy it because it feels closer to what the Android arc set out to be. As a 46 minute movie there's only so much they can flesh things out, and it lacks tension, but at least we get a real battle between all 3 Super Saiyans and some Androids.

[MasenkoHA]

19 and 20 were too bland. Honestly finding out that they weren’t the real cyborgs and then the true cyborgs being upstaged by a greater evil (Cell) was for the best.

[Arteaga4K]

17 and 18 weren't any less threatening than an old man and a clown machine. For me I'm in the opposite, I think from 17 and 18 getting introduced up until Cell's semi perfect transformation was my favorite part of the arc. Goku was out for most of those episodes and you found out there's another threat possibly more powerful than the twin cyborgs. I remember being glued to my seat

[ABED]

I love cat and mouse games. It was different for DB to that point. If 19 and 20 were the cyborgs the story went with, the confrontation happens really early in the story. It doesn't feel like enough to sustain a long arc.

[Matches Malone]

19 and 20 were too bland. Honestly finding out that they weren’t the real cyborgs and then the true cyborgs being upstaged by a greater evil (Cell) was for the best.

This. Anything other than what we got would feel very underwhelming compared to the Namek arc, which is something you don't want your story to suffer from. There are so many great fights and character moments that would be lost if the Android/Cell arc turned out any different, so I'm happy Toriyama changed his plans as not all original ideas are good.

[MasenkoHA]

I love cat and mouse games. It was different for DB to that point. If 19 and 20 were the cyborgs the story went with, the confrontation happens really early in the story. It doesn't feel like enough to sustain a long arc.

I think that’s the only way 19 and 20 could have worked if there some level of build up to them but even then it probably would end being a rehash of the Saiyan arc. Warning of two evils in a specified time frame>characters train>villain duo arrives with one clearly superior over the other>takes out the Z fighters one by one until Goku saves the day.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Numbers 19 and 20 had a unique skillset that I would have enjoyed seeing more of. Ki blasts being off the table offensively would have made for some interesting fights. I was also really into the idea of taking the events of Namek but having them play out on Earth. By the time Krillin and Gohan reach Namek much of the planet had already been purged of Namekians so there weren't many oppurtunities for hostages or for the main cast's empathy to be exploited. On Earth it's really easy for me to imagine the heroes being goaded into doomed last stands as they try to buy time for civilians. And going off 20's brief exchange with Goku I'm inclined to think that's what would have happened.

I'm in the minority on this but I didn't like the Cell Games so any version of this arc that ditches it has to be better. And I absolutely would have appreciated a shorter more contained arc after the slog that the Freeza Arc turned into.

[90sDBZ]

While I agree using the same formula over and over does get old, I'm sure Toriyama could have found a way to keep 19 and 20 as the villains and keep things interesting. They ultimately turn out to be pretty inept villains, but I get the feeling this was done purely to introduce 17 and 18.

They feel genuinely menacing at first, and their ki absorption technique makes them a real threat that can't be dealt with in the conventional way.

17 and 18 feel like they were never intended to be main villains to begin with. It's clear from the get go they're not how Trunks described them, and even when they set out to kill Goku there's no sense of urgency.

The story doesn't really get tense again until Cell's introduction, and he gets made into a joke when he fights Vegeta and has to beg for a chance to become stronger.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

They feel genuinely menacing at first, and their ki absorption technique makes them a real threat that can't be dealt with in the conventional way.

They also have my absolute favorite kill in the series. Decapitation via neck crushing. Flippin' awesome.

But yeah, ki absorption was such a unique idea I'd have loved to see it developed further.

[Vijay]

I initially felt really excited for the arrival of the Androids. Trunks' warning, the way he described them, the idea of an apocalyptic future with unstoppable killing machines that could easily take down a Super Saiyan.

I was really excited for an all out battle between the Z Warriors and the Androids. At some point for me things lost momentum and went all over the place. 19 and 20 were interesting enough, and kind of creepy, and there was some great tension when Goku came down with the virus. Things seemed to get derailed right after Vegeta took out 19. It turned into a game of cat and mouse, and 17 and 18 didn't feel that threatening, maybe because they weren't really evil.

Cell's buildup and initial introduction were great, but it turned into a game of cat and mouse again, and wasn't really great again until the Cell Games. Although Piccolo vs 17 was a good fight, and Vegeta's Final Flash was a great moment.

I love the Cell Games and wouldn't change it for that alone, but part of me wonders what might have been had Toriyama's editor left him to it. Movie 7 doesn't seem to be very well liked, but I enjoy it because it feels closer to what the Android arc set out to be. As a 46 minute movie there's only so much they can flesh things out, and it lacks tension, but at least we get a real battle between all 3 Super Saiyans and some Androids.

I feel ya man...durin my initial viewing all I wanted was war.

B'ween newly upgraded SSJ Goku & Androids. Or better yet, our Z fighters vs Androids who were hyped were able kill our future Z fighter counterparts. It's HYPE BRAH

Turned out it was subversion...which actually is good writing. Learnt it frm Nolan's TDKR. If the storyline doesn't go the way u wanted it to...it isn't a flaw. It's merely ur preference. But it's still good writing. For it to be able to subvert ur attention & at times ultimate "gotcha" moment.

It's cat & mouse game all da way....till penultimate Cell Games. Except Goku vs Cell & few iconic SSJ2 Kid Gohan moments, it wasn't anywhere near biblical scale as Frieza or Boo Arc. But trust me. It's damn good writing

Felt similar way with Saiyan Arc. Goku was hyped with training with King Kai, Kaioken, Spirit Bomb whatnot...left crippled, barely holding onto life

Guess it's this way of "take it or leave it" I'mma personally fan of Goku. So I enjoy Frieza & Boo Arc.

Despite not being a Gohan fan, I really felt Saiyan & Cell Arc to be great from storytelling perspective

[Rory]

I guess I'm in the minority here, I want to see what Toriyama would've done with #19/#20.
They look unnerving enough and their murderous introduction was downright creepy, I'd like to have seen where Toriyama could take that. Also, there's of course the energy draining which could've seen some great use, wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama re-used the concept for Cell (having had the idea of them retreating, draining a city's worth of people and powering up).
As interesting as 17/18 are from a design standpoint (unassuming looking teenagers), they never actually do anything of note. The fight with Piccolo is honestly overrated to me, it's nowhere near as cool as the first fight where they effortlessly take out the heroes, that scene has real stakes, and feels like a genuine gut-punch (as opposed to the actual boring gut punches in the Piccolo/17 fight).
The only good thing to come after the original duo is honestly the filler of Cell on the run, this is where Cell is at it's most interesting. Guess I'm in the minority here too in saying the Cell Games aren't that valuable to me. You get the iconic father/son Kamehameha, and some badassery with Gohan, and that's really it.
Yeah I dunno, few people in here saying 19/20 were bland? Like, you know how fiction works, right? With time he could've written them so they weren't bland.

[ABED]

One thing I really dug about at least the early Cyborg arc is dealing with an enemy that doesn't have ki. It's really interesting because a significant part of Goku's training with Mr. Popo was learning how to sense ki. They had gotten so used to sensing ki they weren't as practiced in using their physical sense in battle. Such a cool idea.

[Vijay]

One thing I really dug about at least the early Cyborg arc is dealing with an enemy that doesn't have ki. It's really interesting because a significant part of Goku's training with Mr. Popo was learning how to sense ki. They had gotten so used to sensing ki they weren't as practiced in using their physical sense in battle. Such a cool idea.

For a second, I was terrified you might come-up with "there's no original premise for Android Arc as their journey have ended"

[Rory]

One thing I really dug about at least the early Cyborg arc is dealing with an enemy that doesn't have ki. It's really interesting because a significant part of Goku's training with Mr. Popo was learning how to sense ki. They had gotten so used to sensing ki they weren't as practiced in using their physical sense in battle. Such a cool idea.

For me this is the cheque that never gets cashed in. You get maybe 2 scenes of that idea baring fruit but the way it's set up makes it seems like it's going to be this absolutely huge deal, a game changer. Really all it does it make the main cast have to wait around for 17/18 to show up, and have a hard time finding Gero.
Neither of these things are unique to having to having no ki anyway, Cell achieves the exact same thing but just suppressing his! It would've been nice to have used this in a way that makes fights unpredictable (have them fluctuate their power to throw their opponents off), or set up ambushes on the main cast. Hell maybe you could blind one of the heroes fighting them, then what the hell are they going to do?

[ABED]

One thing I really dug about at least the early Cyborg arc is dealing with an enemy that doesn't have ki. It's really interesting because a significant part of Goku's training with Mr. Popo was learning how to sense ki. They had gotten so used to sensing ki they weren't as practiced in using their physical sense in battle. Such a cool idea.

For a second, I was terrified you might come-up with "there's no original premise for Android Arc as their journey have ended"

It's true though. Their journeys did end in a satisfying way in the previous arcs. Vegeta's story is the only one that feels like there's an organic direction to go in. But that wasn't the question of this thread.

I don't think the original premise of the arc was better. Regardless of execution, time travel screwing with Trunks' history and resulting in something even worse feels like a less linear and more interesting story. Think about it. If Toriyama went with 19 and 20, then the plot is a mysterious teenager shows, warns Goku, Goku trains, and eventually defeats them. It's a plot, but a VERY straightforward one. Trunks doesn't really serve much purpose. There are very few reversals or plot twists. At most, I see that arc being 13 episodes of DB Kai.

[Rory]

Think about it. If Toriyama went with 19 and 20, then the plot is a mysterious teenager shows, warns Goku, Goku trains, and eventually defeats them. It's a plot, but a VERY straightforward one. Trunks doesn't really serve much purpose. There are very few reversals or plot twists. At most, I see that arc being 13 episodes of DB Kai.

This is what I keep seeing: 'If this really boring set of events happened, it would've been really boring'. Toriyama was setting something up, we'll never know what it really was but the pieces of story we have right now aren't indicative of how it absolutely had to have played out. It's sort of the same as "if the story ended at X arc, it would've been a shit place to end". It would've been shit with the pieces we have now, however if Toriyama wanted the story to end in a different spot, he would've done a better job wrapping everything up. Who knows how many twists/turns he could've thrown into the 19/20 story. We sure don't. All I know is what we currently have is pretty unsatisfying, and I'd be willing to re-roll.

[90sDBZ]

Hell maybe you could blind one of the heroes fighting them, then what the hell are they going to do?

That would have been very interesting. I've always liked the part in GT were Goku gets blinded by Eis Shenron, and has to rely on his senses to defeat him and then fight Syn Shenron too. Against an enemy that can't even be sensed it would have made for some incredible tension.

[MasenkoHA]

One interesting direction the story could have gone in with 19 and 20 as the cyborgs Trunks was warning about was have Goku die from the heart virus and kill all the Z-fighters besides Gohan and Trunks anyways. A “you cant fight fate” type of scenario.

[ABED]

Think about it. If Toriyama went with 19 and 20, then the plot is a mysterious teenager shows, warns Goku, Goku trains, and eventually defeats them. It's a plot, but a VERY straightforward one. Trunks doesn't really serve much purpose. There are very few reversals or plot twists. At most, I see that arc being 13 episodes of DB Kai.

This is what I keep seeing: 'If this really boring set of events happened, it would've been really boring'. Toriyama was setting something up, we'll never know what it really was but the pieces of story we have right now aren't indicative of how it absolutely had to have played out. It's sort of the same as "if the story ended at X arc, it would've been a shit place to end". It would've been shit with the pieces we have now, however if Toriyama wanted the story to end in a different spot, he would've done a better job wrapping everything up. Who knows how many twists/turns he could've thrown into the 19/20 story. We sure don't. All I know is what we currently have is pretty unsatisfying, and I'd be willing to re-roll.

But if the set up is linear and they are the big bads of the arc, then there aren't many twists you can pull that eventually don't fell like it's pulling the taffy. What we got is way more satisfying than the straightforward plot that doesn't take advantage of the time travel element.

[90sDBZ]

One interesting direction the story could have gone in with 19 and 20 as the cyborgs Trunks was warning about was have Goku die from the heart virus and kill all the Z-fighters besides Gohan and Trunks anyways. A “you cant fight fate” type of scenario.

In a way it sort of was a "you can't fight fate" scenario, as Goku ultimately gets killed by Cell anyway. Like Trunks managed to buy him a bit more time of life, but it wasn't to last. It's also curious how Goku seems to have a sixth sense his time is short, spending time with his family before the Cell Games.

On a side note, I find it interesting how Android 20 denies being Dr Gero when Piccolo suggests that he is. Maybe that's an idea for another topic.