Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by kei17 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:54 pm

GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:55 pm
kei17 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:30 pm
Anyway, as a Japanese DB fan-
Wait, you’re Japanese yourself? That changes everything then. Since it’s your country we’re talking about (and only your country).
Yes I am. And what changes does my nationality make? That doesn't make my opinions any special unless you talk about something related to personal experiences.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by PremiumSalt » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:04 pm

GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:36 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:30 am
I don’t know why sounding older has to mean bad.
One more thing BTW, going off of this, do you think using animation or filming standards from the 60’s or 70’s would be acceptable in the later decades even now?
I dunno about 60s or 70s, but The Lighthouse was shot in the filming standards of the 1930s and it came out last year. It was nominated for an Academy Award for Cinematography. Of course, that film's cinematography was purposely a throwback, just like the Kikuchi score for DB/DBZ was purposely a throwback. There's nothing wrong with doing that, at all.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:18 pm

kei17 wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:54 pm
GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:55 pm
kei17 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:30 pm
Anyway, as a Japanese DB fan-
Wait, you’re Japanese yourself? That changes everything then. Since it’s your country we’re talking about (and only your country).
Yes I am. And what changes does my nationality make? That doesn't make my opinions any special unless you talk about something related to personal experiences.
That means you probably have a better grasp of how things are there in the first place, and can access products that outsiders can’t. As well as specialized info. But I recall you saying you’re not really interested in Tokusatsu or Robot anime, weren’t they huge genres in Japan for a really long time?
PremiumSalt wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:04 pm
GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:36 pm

One more thing BTW, going off of this, do you think using animation or filming standards from the 60’s or 70’s would be acceptable in the later decades even now?
I dunno about 60s or 70s, but The Lighthouse was shot in the filming standards of the 1930s and it came out last year. It was nominated for an Academy Award for Cinematography. Of course, that film's cinematography was purposely a throwback, just like the Kikuchi score for DB/DBZ is/was purposely a throwback. There's nothing wrong with doing that, at all.
In that case they at least didn’t have to throwback to even the low-tier studio recording quality that makes it all sound ridiculous (as far as the use in the show goes).
Or put a majority of the tracks on one scale either.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by ABED » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:22 pm

GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:36 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:30 am
I don’t know why sounding older has to mean bad.
One more thing BTW, going off of this, do you think using animation or filming standards from the 60’s or 70’s would be acceptable in the later decades even now?
Yes if you are going for a throwback. It's a perfectly sensible aesthetic choice.
one scale only (F minor) for so many soundtracks like the anachronism it was said to be (worse for me because I’m rather sensitive to details like this). Literally no other composer or score at the time or later had such a monotony going on. Couldn’t some pieces at least have been transposed to different keys or something so they don’t all sound basically the same? It’s ridiculously easy to do after the score is complete.
Similar but not the same. I don't know anything about music beyond something sounding good or bad to me. No one but musicians give a damn if something is in one key. I don't care who else was doing what. The only thing that matters is if it fits DB.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:39 pm

GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:18 pm
In that case they at least didn’t have to throwback to even the low-tier studio recording quality that makes it all sound ridiculous (as far as the use in the show goes).
They didn't. Japanese Dragon Ball now sounds the way it does because the audio masters were thrown out by Toei after each episode aired for the first time. The show's audio quality was much higher when it originally aired.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Ajay » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:39 pm
GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:18 pm
In that case they at least didn’t have to throwback to even the low-tier studio recording quality that makes it all sound ridiculous (as far as the use in the show goes).
They didn't. Japanese Dragon Ball now sounds the way it does because the audio masters were thrown out by Toei after each episode aired for the first time. The show's audio quality was much higher when it originally aired.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Rory » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:51 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:39 pm
They didn't. Japanese Dragon Ball now sounds the way it does because the audio masters were thrown out by Toei after each episode aired for the first time. The show's audio quality was much higher when it originally aired.
This is one thing I've been curious about since seeing GhostEmperorX's posts, whether they've heard samples from the CD releases of the series, or if their only experience is with the home releases of the episodes. There's a vast difference in audio fidelity and all this talk of the audio recording being of low quality kind of boggles my brain a little.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:25 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:39 pm
GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:18 pm
In that case they at least didn’t have to throwback to even the low-tier studio recording quality that makes it all sound ridiculous (as far as the use in the show goes).
They didn't. Japanese Dragon Ball now sounds the way it does because the audio masters were thrown out by Toei after each episode aired for the first time. The show's audio quality was much higher when it originally aired.
Oh yes, I did hear about that. I guess this would also be due to Toei's staggering incompetence. Did the BGM releases and the movies have the same problem or?
ABED wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:22 pm
Similar but not the same. I don't know anything about music beyond something sounding good or bad to me. No one but musicians give a damn if something is in one key. I don't care who else was doing what. The only thing that matters is if it fits DB.
Not saying you should care about that, but that it's the reason why a lot of it just sounds... manufactured. At least to me.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:36 pm

Apologies in advance for double posting.
Ajay wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:39 pm
GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:18 pm
In that case they at least didn’t have to throwback to even the low-tier studio recording quality that makes it all sound ridiculous (as far as the use in the show goes).
They didn't. Japanese Dragon Ball now sounds the way it does because the audio masters were thrown out by Toei after each episode aired for the first time. The show's audio quality was much higher when it originally aired.
Shamelessly plugging myself to back you up.
I saw this video as well.
First, Toei throws out the audio masters, then Funimation spreads the wrong 16:9 version instead of 4:3. Why does this franchise have to suffer from so much mishandling?

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by VDenter » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:02 pm

GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:36 pm
Apologies in advance for double posting.
Ajay wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:39 pm


They didn't. Japanese Dragon Ball now sounds the way it does because the audio masters were thrown out by Toei after each episode aired for the first time. The show's audio quality was much higher when it originally aired.
Shamelessly plugging myself to back you up.
I saw this video as well.
First, Toei throws out the audio masters, then Funimation spreads the wrong 16:9 version instead of 4:3. Why does this franchise have to suffer from so much mishandling?
As much as it sucks that the original broadcast audio was thrown out, it was ultimately understandable given the circumstances at the time. Thankfully most of the audio has been found and preserved. Now it only needs a official release. Which realistically won't happen for a very long time but at the very least it exists. It is crazy to me that fans were able to hold on to the tapes for this long but it is really awesome that they did.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by ABED » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:03 pm

I don't think home video was a thing, at least not for TV back then, so I don't know why anyone would feel the need to hold on to the audio masters.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Valerius Dover » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:21 pm

For what it's worth, Funi's dub from the Season Sets was aired on Toonami Asia with the US music intact. So, whatever legal issues they had didn't apply outside the US at least.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:31 pm

VDenter wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:02 pm
GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:36 pm
Apologies in advance for double posting.
Ajay wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm


Shamelessly plugging myself to back you up.
I saw this video as well.
First, Toei throws out the audio masters, then Funimation spreads the wrong 16:9 version instead of 4:3. Why does this franchise have to suffer from so much mishandling?
As much as it sucks that the original broadcast audio was thrown out, it was ultimately understandable given the circumstances at the time.
If this were Sunrise studios or prime Gainax, you wouldn’t ever hear of such a thing.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Planetnamek » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:40 pm

Ajay wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:39 pm
GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:18 pm
In that case they at least didn’t have to throwback to even the low-tier studio recording quality that makes it all sound ridiculous (as far as the use in the show goes).
They didn't. Japanese Dragon Ball now sounds the way it does because the audio masters were thrown out by Toei after each episode aired for the first time. The show's audio quality was much higher when it originally aired.
Shamelessly plugging myself to back you up.
Speaking of which, whatever did happen with those other tapes Kei17 had? After reading that massive thread about the broadcast audio and HG dub i'm legitimately curious. I know higher-quality versions of all of the DBZ episodes were found elsewhere and sent to Funi, but I heard Kei has a bunch of Dragon Ball taped with original broadcast audio as well, be a shame if those tapes didn't also make their way to Funi if that's true.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Zestanor » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:12 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:03 pm
I don't think home video was a thing, at least not for TV back then, so I don't know why anyone would feel the need to hold on to the audio masters.
I’m sure I’m not having an original thought, but: home video wasn’t a thing, however reruns certainly were. For some bizarre reason, the Betacam tapes that were sent to TV stations on the broadcast dates had the good audio... but the Betacam tapes used for reruns had the bad audio. This makes no sense to me. Assuming they anticipated reruns, why would the stations trash the broadcast copy? Or I’m missing something.
but I heard Kei has a bunch of Dragon Ball taped with original broadcast audio as well, be a shame if those tapes didn't also make their way to Funi if that's true.
Home video is dead, and Funimation would have no profit margin. Let’s be real: now that the broadcast audio is all leaked (for Z and GT), Funi could not even market it as this miraculous thing only they have. The people that have the audio for DB apparently aren’t interested in putting it up for download, and Z’s audio is only widely available because of some shenanigans. It seems the good actors in this thing never wanted to upload their broadcast audio (favoring sending it to Funi and Toei in an official way). Bad actors somehow forced it, but they didn’t get all of DB.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:37 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:02 am
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:50 am

I was talking to my friend a few days ago and he, despite never having read the manga, says he thinks Faulconer's score is more true to Toriyama's intentions than Kikuchi's score. What is the proper response to this? I told him that most of Funimation didn't even know who Toriyama was when they dubbed/rescored the show, and that he has never read the manga so he can't know what Toriyama intended. But I want something more definitive.
Pretty sure Toriyama didn’t intend for his mid 80s-mid 90s manga to sound like something that could have b
only sounded like it came from the turn of the 21st century.


To also be fair who knows if Toriyama had any sort of music in mind when creating the manga.
For the record, he thinks Kikuchi fits OG DB perfectly, but Faulconer does it properly with DBZ. :lol:

Just tell him “It was all one manga there is no Dragon Ball Z outside of English translations there’s no reason for the music to change so drastically mid-story”


Of course the Kikuchi fit original Dragon Ball but Faulconer (who didn’t even score the first 67 episodes regardless) just perfectly fit Z is just more of the “this is how I grew up with it so it must be correct”
He knows that DB is one manga and that only the anime has a "Z" distinction unless you count the American release of the manga. But I believe his response would be, based on the conversation we had, that Z is all about fighting bad guys like aliens from space and magical creatures whereas DB is more of an adventure sort of show. He did admit that the Piccolo stuff could have fit in with Z and sort of at a loss, but his general stance is that Funi Z is better because of Faulconer. I want him to realize that original = better because it's pure without any messing with from the assclowns at Funimation.

He was at a loss of words (he sighed and stayed silent for a moment) when I told him that Funimation itself probably didn't know who Toriyama was when they first dubbed Z, that Faulconer and his team didn't know Toriyama, and even Sabat has said before that he thought DBZ would be a 1 or 2 year thing and it'd be over. They had no concern nor care so it's highly unlikely that Faulconer's score is more in line with that Toriyama intends with the show. I've also pointed out that he seems to base his opinions off of Funi Z as if it is the original and definitive version of the show, not a recreation as it is. Furthermore, he thinks studios like 4Kids did a "good job" with shows like Yu-Gi-Oh! because they made it more popular. I fucking loved YGO as a kid even after it died off as a fad (at my school at least) and I will say I think 4Kids did a shit job since they completely recreated it.

I need something definitive to change his mind or at least get him to admit that Faulconer/Funi Z is not the definitive version of the show. He likes Funi Z even better than Kai simply because of Faulconer... I like Kai better mostly because the removed filler, but the music (even Kikuchi Kai) is shit (horrible and repetitive placement).

I will say that I love Faulconer's music. I'm not a hater or Kikuchi fanboy. But when it comes to watching DBZ, I want to watch it as intended which is in its Japanese form (with broadcast audio).
Zestanor wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:12 pm
The people that have the audio for DB apparently aren’t interested in putting it up for download, and Z’s audio is only widely available because of some shenanigans. It seems the good actors in this thing never wanted to upload their broadcast audio (favoring sending it to Funi and Toei in an official way). Bad actors somehow forced it, but they didn’t get all of DB.
From what I hear, Toei doesn't care about the broadcast audio (someone tried giving it to them and were basically ignored), and Sabat has a copy of it. I believe the issue is that Funimation cannot use unapproved audio without Toei's confirmation--doing so will cost them the DB license. You also have it backwards. Bad actors don't want the broadcast audio out because some of them would sell an episode or two of it for money. To use a term others used when they heard this, it was the "golden goose" of people who had some episodes of audio for DBZ. The good actor (it was one person) somehow got ahold of all of Z's audio and shared it to the community for the good of the community. Thanks to her, we now have all 291 episodes of DBZ in excellent audio quality and get releases (dragon box, 30th Ann., etc.) synced to the broadcast audio. It's only greed that the people who had Z's audio didn't share it (and made death threats against the girl who put it up online originally), so I think it's safe to say that they were the bad actors. Last, I've talked to people and the main belief is that Kei17 has the broadcast audio for Dragon Ball, but he'll never put it online. He has a YouTube channel and he made a video about remastering an episode of DB (he has a film reel apparently). It was really neat and interesting. If he gets shit like that, it wouldn't surprise me if he did have all 153 episodes of DB with the original audio. But like with DBZ, he won't share it. Is an asshole? An idiot? Misguided? I don't know. I still like him regardless, and I found it funny when he quit this place for a while because he was so butthurt about DBZ's broadcast audio leaking.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Planetnamek » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:53 pm

I agree with your friend on Yu-Gi-Oh, I honestly do think 4Kids did a pretty good job with it all things considered.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:05 pm

Planetnamek wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:53 pm
I agree with your friend on Yu-Gi-Oh, I honestly do think 4Kids did a pretty good job with it all things considered.
It's one of my favorite things from them dub wise aside from the Indigo League episodes of Pokemon.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:06 pm

When I was a wee lass I was a part of the generation that grew up trying to fight for uncut Dragon Ball and other cartoons, Yuugi-Ou! included. It always blows my mind that I am now old enough for younger folks to have grown up on 4Kids dubs and actually like them.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:07 am

Zestanor wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:12 pm
The people that have the audio for DB apparently aren’t interested in putting it up for download, and Z’s audio is only widely available because of some shenanigans. It seems the good actors in this thing never wanted to upload their broadcast audio (favoring sending it to Funi and Toei in an official way). Bad actors somehow forced it, but they didn’t get all of DB.
Well screw Toei for doing this in the first place. The broadcast audio makes the Kikuchi score that much better to listen to within the show. Now I no longer mind it, even though I still don’t have a strong preference for it.
Now I wonder if this is available for all the episodes along with the true 4:3 aspect ratio. Maybe now I can view DBZ once again in its true and proper form.

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