Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

[Fionordequester]

I think you meant that they're remixes of "Serious Suspense" and "Evil Suspense". And the second link doesn't seem to work, but this is probably what you meant to link: https://youtu.be/bh0ve7jhcDw?t=280

Blast... You're right. Those were all tracks made earlier than what was listed in the DBZ Volumes on Faulconer's channel.

...Just goes to show how little work Faulconer himself actually did, I suppose.

[Dbzfan94]

Spoiler:

How's this?

You know, the funny thing is? That's not even a 1/3rd of the amount of variations Majin Buu has. No, he has 19 themes. Nineteen fricken themes, all with the Majin leitmotif somewhere is there (though some are more subtle than others).

A lot of the other examples you brought up have more as well, but, I'll call it here for today. This list alone was way more work than I thought!!

All of Majin Buu's Various Themes
Majin theme (a.k.a. Babidi's Theme)

Buu's Theme (a.k.a., Fat Buu's Theme)

Buu Eats Cookie (starts at 0:35)

Buu Approaches Vegeta ("Goku Recovers" with Buu's leitmotif, starts at 0:29)

Goku Senses Buu

Evil Buu Theme (a.k.a., Grey Buu Theme)

Super Buu Theme

Scary Buu (a.k.a, Super Buu's 2nd Theme)

Evil Majin

Super Buu Arrives at the Lookout

Human Extinction Attack (Grey Buu remix, starts at 0:27)

Frieza Transforms (Buu Remix, starts at 4:40)

Buu is Fighting

Buu Anticipates

Super Buu Self-Destructs (starts at 5:43)

Super Buu Piano (Mr. Satan's Plea)

Mr. Satan & Bee

Devastion (Buu Remix)

Kid Buu Theme

Wow, thanks! I had idea I was forgetting this many.

[JustAlex1997]

There are definitely some standout tracks, and its implementation is often much worse than the music on its own. Still, English Dragon Ball and Japanese Dragon Ball are two different beasts entirely. You can't really say that the Faulconer music is better than the Kikuchi music as they were responsible for the soundtracks to essentially two different shows. Faulconer works for the dub, Kikuchi works for the original.

[XanatosVanBadass]

There are definitely some standout tracks, and its implementation is often much worse than the music on its own. Still, English Dragon Ball and Japanese Dragon Ball are two different beasts entirely. You can't really say that the Faulconer music is better than the Kikuchi music as they were responsible for the soundtracks to essentially two different shows. Faulconer works for the dub, Kikuchi works for the original.

Eh, I’d agree if it was a situation like Robotech, where they took the anime and story elements from different anime to essentially create something new. Funimation doesn’t really have that same excuse. They presented the show as Dragon Ball Z and kept on “reversioning” the show LONG after it had fallen out of fashion with most companies. When they separated from Saban, that would have been a golden opportunity to start fresh, but they didn’t take it. Hell, even the Cloverway dub of Sailor Moon started to use the Japanese ost. And I can’t believe I’m defending that dub!

[JustAlex1997]

There are definitely some standout tracks, and its implementation is often much worse than the music on its own. Still, English Dragon Ball and Japanese Dragon Ball are two different beasts entirely. You can't really say that the Faulconer music is better than the Kikuchi music as they were responsible for the soundtracks to essentially two different shows. Faulconer works for the dub, Kikuchi works for the original.

Eh, I’d agree if it was a situation like Robotech, where they took the anime and story elements from different anime to essentially create something new. Funimation doesn’t really have that same excuse. They presented the show as Dragon Ball Z and kept on “reversioning” the show LONG after it had fallen out of fashion with most companies. When they separated from Saban, that would have been a golden opportunity to start fresh, but they didn’t take it. Hell, even the Cloverway dub of Sailor Moon started to use the Japanese ost. And I can’t believe I’m defending that dub!

The tone, characters' personalities, etc. are so far removed from what was originally intended that watching the English dub of Dragon Ball Z leaves you with very little knowledge of the series. For that reason, they might as well have completely changed the story (especially as they partially did anyway with things like, "your father was an average fighter, but he was a brilliant scientist").

[MasenkoHA]

[When they separated from Saban, that would have been a golden opportunity to start fresh, but they didn’t take it. Hell, even the Cloverway dub of Sailor Moon started to use the Japanese ost. And I can’t believe I’m defending that dub!

The Pioneer dub of the movies gave Funimation a golden opportunity to segue into a more faithful dub. There was already a precedent set for a faithful dub with the Kikuchi score aired on Toonami in lightly edited form. The excuses people have made for Funimation when Pioneer showed them it could be done right and they were no longer bound by Saban’s puritanical censorship have always been ridiculous.

[XanatosVanBadass]

[When they separated from Saban, that would have been a golden opportunity to start fresh, but they didn’t take it. Hell, even the Cloverway dub of Sailor Moon started to use the Japanese ost. And I can’t believe I’m defending that dub!

The Pioneer dub of the movies gave Funimation a golden opportunity to segue into a more faithful dub. There was already a precedent set for a faithful dub with the Kikuchi score aired on Toonami in lightly edited form. The excuses people have made for Funimation when Pioneer showed them it could be done right and they were no longer bound by Saban’s puritanical censorship have always been ridiculous.

Wasn’t the initial plan to create two versions? One that was Saban’s version and one that would have been uncut and more accurate to appeal to the older crowd? I wonder what happened with that? Was it the Funi spit from Saban?

[MasenkoHA]

[When they separated from Saban, that would have been a golden opportunity to start fresh, but they didn’t take it. Hell, even the Cloverway dub of Sailor Moon started to use the Japanese ost. And I can’t believe I’m defending that dub!

The Pioneer dub of the movies gave Funimation a golden opportunity to segue into a more faithful dub. There was already a precedent set for a faithful dub with the Kikuchi score aired on Toonami in lightly edited form. The excuses people have made for Funimation when Pioneer showed them it could be done right and they were no longer bound by Saban’s puritanical censorship have always been ridiculous.

Wasn’t the initial plan to create two versions? One that was Saban’s version and one that would have been uncut and more accurate to appeal to the older crowd? I wonder what happened with that? Was it the Funi spit from Saban?

Fukanaga and Watson were talking about creating two versions back in the Saban days, yeah. Saying the uncut version would be the same as the Japanese version only in English. The closest we got to that was Tree of Might’s dual versions.

I don’t know why parting ways with Saban would put the kibosh on these supposed plans. After season 2 the episodes were released uncut on home video first and then aired edited for broadcast its just they were pretty much the exact same; badly mangled dub with dumb jokes, shitty voice acting, and an obnoxious blaring replacement score that wouldn’t stop playing for 2 seconds.

Seems like Fukanaga and Watson were always blowing smoke to appease the purist fans they were talking to. Maybe they figured releasing the Japanese uncut subtitle release was good enough and there was no point in creating two wildly different dubs. Given how cheap and penny pinching Funimation was especially after season 2 it would make sense to try to maintain consistency with the Saban approved seasons that did well on Toonami and not bother spending money for a faithful dub. Season 3 ended up being the first two seasons on steroids with a worse cast.

[Planetnamek]

There are definitely some standout tracks, and its implementation is often much worse than the music on its own. Still, English Dragon Ball and Japanese Dragon Ball are two different beasts entirely. You can't really say that the Faulconer music is better than the Kikuchi music as they were responsible for the soundtracks to essentially two different shows. Faulconer works for the dub, Kikuchi works for the original.

Eh, I’d agree if it was a situation like Robotech, where they took the anime and story elements from different anime to essentially create something new. Funimation doesn’t really have that same excuse. They presented the show as Dragon Ball Z and kept on “reversioning” the show LONG after it had fallen out of fashion with most companies. When they separated from Saban, that would have been a golden opportunity to start fresh, but they didn’t take it. Hell, even the Cloverway dub of Sailor Moon started to use the Japanese ost. And I can’t believe I’m defending that dub!

I'll gladly defend the Cloverway dub, it's not as nostalgic for me as the DiC dub(mainly because some of the voice-acting is worse like Serena) but I still enjoyed it well enough. Aside from the whole "cousins" thing there wasn't too much that made me cringe dialogue wise.

[MasenkoHA]

The unintentional comedy of how often they used the word cousins is a goldmine itself.

“This is my cousin Michelle who is my cousin because we are cousins that is what we are we are cousins.”

“wow so you’re cousins?”

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

The unintentional comedy of how often they used the word cousins is a goldmine itself.

“This is my cousin Michelle who is my cousin because we are cousins that is what we are we are cousins.”

“wow so you’re cousins?”

Man, they sure tried their hardest to cover up the whole lesbian/lovers thing as much as possible even as absurd and laughable as said re writes were. Even when the animation of them getting all touchy feely and too close for comfort as "cousins" so obviously gives it away.

[Planetnamek]

The unintentional comedy of how often they used the word cousins is a goldmine itself.

“This is my cousin Michelle who is my cousin because we are cousins that is what we are we are cousins.”

“wow so you’re cousins?”

Man, they sure tried their hardest to cover up the whole lesbian/lovers thing as much as possible even as absurd and laughable as said re writes were. Even when the animation of them getting all touchy feely and too close for comfort as "cousins" so obviously gives it away.

Indeed, i'm sure that was Cloverway's way of rebelling against what had to be a network mandate to not show "gay" stuff.

[GhostEmperorX]

The tone, characters' personalities, etc. are so far removed from what was originally intended that watching the English dub of Dragon Ball Z leaves you with very little knowledge of the series. For that reason, they might as well have completely changed the story (especially as they partially did anyway with things like, "your father was an average fighter, but he was a brilliant scientist").

This is what I mean whenever I mention how it was one of the first few anime to switch the mainstream importation process from adaptations into dubs. Doesn’t matter what underground proper channels you had back then either.
The transition clearly wasn’t a smooth one though and elements of adaptations still largely remained.

[Fionordequester]

PERFECT CELL MOTIFS:

Perfect Cell's base theme (Officially released on Volume 4, but not actually what was used for most of the show's run)

Perfect Cell's completed theme (Unreleased; The version that was ACTUALLY used for most of the show's run)

Perfect Cell Runs (Actually several tracks badly mashed together, but two stick out. 0:46 is a "Fast Version" of the base theme, used for actions scenes. 1:41 is a "Slow Version" of the base theme, usually used for Cell calmly talking, or explaining something)

Trunks & Perfect Cell Talk (0:28 & 1:22; Perfect Cell's theme, with an extra instrument)

Cell's Disappointment in Trunks (8:21; the "Slow Theme" with ominous violin & synth in the background)

Cell Returns (Super Perfect Cell's theme)

Namekians Sense Cell ("It's Up to Dende", with an eerie, distorted version of "Cell Returns" in the background)

[Fionordequester]

SSJ1 TRANSFORMATION MOTIFS

SSJ Transformation (self-explanatory)

Gohan's SSJ Theme (Essentially the regular SSJ Transformation played backwards)

SSJ Gohan Powers Up (0:26; Gohan's lamentation. He's powering up against Cell, but his heart is torn apart by the constant fighting)

[Cure Dragon 255]

SSJ1 TRANSFORMATION MOTIFS

SSJ Transformation (self-explanatory)

Gohan's SSJ Theme (Essentially the regular SSJ Transformation played backwards)

SSJ Gohan Powers Up (0:26; Gohan's lamentation. He's powering up against Cell, but his heart is torn apart by the constant fighting)

You just posted the same video twice. And Youtube has no backwards play you know!

[Fionordequester]

You just posted the same video twice. And Youtube has no backwards play you know!

Blast... Lemme fix that:

SSJ1 TRANSFORMATION MOTIFS

SSJ Transformation (self-explanatory)

Gohan's SSJ Theme (Essentially the regular SSJ Transformation played backwards)

SSJ Gohan Powers Up (0:26; Gohan's lamentation. He's powering up against Cell, but his heart is torn apart by the constant fighting)

[GhostEmperorX]

Now that I've thought more on the subject, I pretty much understand what people are saying and why the original is fine for DB and even Z (even if certain placements could have been better). Just looking at the animation of the original series once again, as well as re-examining Toriyama's style, most things of a different kind from Kikuchi's work for the show wouldn't actually work with the atmosphere and setting of the verse. Because, and let's remember Toriyama's background for writing DB was mainly comedy, the series itself doesn't exactly have as much "depth" when compared to a lot of the media that would indeed have more elaborate material for their OST's, so it doesn't quite warrant said material.
It works especially best with early DBZ, maybe because it wasn't too far from DB, but some music placements for later in the show are iffy. Despite that however it's ultimately the actual fitting BGM. Anything more complex would distort the show's essence or just feel out of place somehow.

[Plague-Memories]

Lmfao jesus christ

[Yuli Ban]

Honestly, a replacement score would've been just fine for Dragon Ball in the 90s if FUNimation were fully on board with making it like a 1970s kung fu flick first and foremost. They could easily have gotten away with introducing electronic and rock aspects to it because it's not like that's something foreign to kung fu movies, even of that time (most notably Master of the Flying Guillotine, which even used krautrock!).

They couldn't even accomplish that.