Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

[10gigtriforce]

Yes, they were able to change that marketing because of the huge tonal shifts. There's a reason it happened with the arrival of Raditz, and not Demon King Piccolo. Goku (and Piccolo) being aliens was such a twist it was a retcon AFAIC.

No. The reason it happened at Raditz is because Morishita took over as the showrunner right as the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai started. The arrival of Raditz happened to be the first storyline break that occurred after he took over and came up with this idea. Also, I didn't say the marketing "changed." I said they were given more money for it because it was a new series to promote.

Yeah, the fact that it happend right at a time skip was a coincidence since the series has multiple.

[McDonaldsGuy]

Yes, they were able to change that marketing because of the huge tonal shifts. There's a reason it happened with the arrival of Raditz, and not Demon King Piccolo. Goku (and Piccolo) being aliens was such a twist it was a retcon AFAIC.

No. The reason it happened at Raditz is because Morishita took over as the showrunner right as the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai started. The arrival of Raditz happened to be the first storyline break that occurred after he took over and came up with this idea. Also, I didn't say the marketing "changed." I said they were given more money for it because it was a new series to promote.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/dbz/

As the Dragon Ball anime series approached one of the manga’s major turning points, the anime staff approached Akira Toriyama about changing the name of the anime series to help change the “image” of the series. Thinking he would be ending the series sometime soon, Toriyama decided to signify this by simply adding the last letter in the alphabet to the series name. Little did he know that Dragon Ball Z would go on to be one of the most successful, popular, and recognized action anime series of all time.

DBZ is not a martial arts based anime. Nor is it adventure based. The music should have changed to reflect that.

Solid State Scouter IMO fits with DBZ super well for example. Now THAT is an OST.

[XanatosVanBadass]

There's a reason Toei called it Dragon Ball Z - it's so different from Dragon Ball.

Yes, there is a reason Toei called it Dragon Ball Z, and it has nothing to do with ongoing gradual narrative shifts that those involved in the production at the time would have had little way of seeing in a broader context. No one in 1989 could have said, "Dragon Ball is this, while Dragon Ball Z is this" like fans can today with the benefit of hindsight because at the time, it was still being written. It's called Dragon Ball Z because Morishita Kouzou realized that launching a new series instead of continuing with the existing one would come with the added bonus of an increased marketing budget. That is literally all there is to it.

More or less this. It’s similar to how comics will reset their books to a new issue one to generate hype and sales.

[ABED]

DBZ is not a martial arts based anime. Nor is it adventure based. The music should have changed to reflect that.

It is a martial arts based anime. It's more mystical martial arts than perhaps the more hand to hand combat in earlier DB, but that simply reflects Goku's progress as a fighter.

[McDonaldsGuy]

There's a reason Toei called it Dragon Ball Z - it's so different from Dragon Ball.

Yes, there is a reason Toei called it Dragon Ball Z, and it has nothing to do with ongoing gradual narrative shifts that those involved in the production at the time would have had little way of seeing in a broader context. No one in 1989 could have said, "Dragon Ball is this, while Dragon Ball Z is this" like fans can today with the benefit of hindsight because at the time, it was still being written. It's called Dragon Ball Z because Morishita Kouzou realized that launching a new series instead of continuing with the existing one would come with the added bonus of an increased marketing budget. That is literally all there is to it.

More or less this. It’s similar to how comics will reset their books to a new issue one to generate hype and sales.

The reason they wanted Dragon Ball 2 was because the tone of the manga was changing from the cute adventure humorous to the action packed series DBZ became. That's my point - DBZ is not like DB at all and thus the OST (which is martial arts-like) doesn't fit.

[ABED]

Yes, there is a reason Toei called it Dragon Ball Z, and it has nothing to do with ongoing gradual narrative shifts that those involved in the production at the time would have had little way of seeing in a broader context. No one in 1989 could have said, "Dragon Ball is this, while Dragon Ball Z is this" like fans can today with the benefit of hindsight because at the time, it was still being written. It's called Dragon Ball Z because Morishita Kouzou realized that launching a new series instead of continuing with the existing one would come with the added bonus of an increased marketing budget. That is literally all there is to it.

More or less this. It’s similar to how comics will reset their books to a new issue one to generate hype and sales.

The reason they wanted Dragon Ball 2 was because the tone of the manga was changing from the cute adventure humorous to the action packed series DBZ became. That's my point - DBZ is not like DB at all and thus the OST (which is martial arts-like) doesn't fit.

You keep doubling down on this idea that they are completely different. They aren't. The story changed a lot over the years. It wasn't like turning a light switch. DB is an action packed show. If DBZ isn't a martial arts show, what genre is it?

[VegettoEX]

I’m sorry, but you’re wrong, McDondalsGuy.

Kazuhiko Torishima outlines everything in this interview, and as you’ll read, none of it has to do with anything you think it does.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarde ... 5f637425e5

These are the actual people behind this change telling you the reasons why. I promise you Gaffer Tape isn’t just making things up!

(That description on our page is not in contrast with this interview.)

(Oh man, I nearly forgot Lance/Gaffer and I did a podcast episode all about this interview! - viewtopic.php?t=40129)

[McDonaldsGuy]

More or less this. It’s similar to how comics will reset their books to a new issue one to generate hype and sales.

The reason they wanted Dragon Ball 2 was because the tone of the manga was changing from the cute adventure humorous to the action packed series DBZ became. That's my point - DBZ is not like DB at all and thus the OST (which is martial arts-like) doesn't fit.

You keep doubling down on this idea that they are completely different. They aren't. The story changed a lot over the years. It wasn't like turning a light switch. DB is an action packed show. If DBZ isn't a martial arts show, what genre is it?

DBZ is an action-based sci-fi (with space travel and time travel elements) anime. Dragon Ball is a martial arts adventure. In DBZ, aside from the journey to Namek, there is no adventure for example. And DB is far, far more humor based compared to DBZ. The reason Toei wanted to change its image was BECAUSE they didn't want the new action based series to be compared to the humorous series.

Faulconer I felt captured this more. SSJ3 Goku's theme should sound awesome and action packed, and not the weird depressing orchestra music we got in the Japanese dub. This theme would have fit the Japanese show a lot more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVG07DbFJwY

[ABED]

There are plenty of science fiction elements in DB. Hoi Poi Capsules, mech suits, etc. And the science fiction elements are just window dressing. The Piccolo Daimao arc isn't an adventure. It's a revenge story. You keep saying it over and over again that DB is a martial arts series, but so is DBZ. And by the way, the tone gradually shifts, it doesn't go from gag manga to more earnest overnight.

[McDonaldsGuy]

I’m sorry, but you’re wrong, McDondalsGuy.

Kazuhiko Torishima outlines everything in this interview, and as you’ll read, none of it has to do with anything you think it does.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarde ... 5f637425e5

These are the actual people behind this change telling you the reasons why. I promise you Gaffer Tape isn’t just making things up!

(That description on our page is not in contrast with this interview.)

"s he had an image of Toriyama's manga as being something cute and funny, which meant his style of Dragon Ball became too similar to Dr. Slump. This meant he was missing the more serious tone we had developed in the Dragon Ball manga. For instance, when I saw the scene in the anime where Goku pierces Piccolo I realized I couldn't work with this producer."

"o we decided to go with the different title and updated characters, with bigger proportions, and we had a meeting for this new title but we couldn't come up with anything good."

So with the tonal changes, it was clear there was going to have to be a change in the anime from the humorous adventure of DB to DBZ. Thus is why I don't think the more adventure/humorous OST works with DBZ.

[McDonaldsGuy]

There are plenty of science fiction elements in DB. Hoi Poi Capsules, mech suits, etc. And the science fiction elements are just window dressing. The Piccolo Daimao arc isn't an adventure. It's a revenge story. You keep saying it over and over again that DB is a martial arts series, but so is DBZ. And by the way, the tone gradually shifts, it doesn't go from gag manga to more earnest overnight.

There's a love story in DB/Z, doesn't mean it's romance. Bringing in time travel is different than mech suits.

The second it's shown that Goku and Piccolo are aliens (which is not even remotely hinted at in Dragon Ball - in fact, Piccolo is referred to as a Demon), the entire genre shifted. That's why DBZ is nothing like DB.

[XanatosVanBadass]

Furthermore, the sci-fi elements in Dragon Ball were very prominent ever since the RRA arc where Goku started fighting robots and cyborgs or where he walked through a futuristic city with flying cars and the like. Hell, they were there since the first episode when Bulma pulled out a capsule that produced a motorcycle. Mind it was magic in how it looked, but the capsules were only ever presented as a piece of technology invented by a scientist.

So with the tonal changes, it was clear there was going to have to be a change in the anime from the humorous adventure of DB to DBZ. Thus is why I don't think the more adventure/humorous OST works with DBZ.

Going by this logic, Sailor Moon, R, S, SS, and Stars were different shows because they each had tonal shifts.

[ABED]

There are plenty of science fiction elements in DB. Hoi Poi Capsules, mech suits, etc. And the science fiction elements are just window dressing. The Piccolo Daimao arc isn't an adventure. It's a revenge story. You keep saying it over and over again that DB is a martial arts series, but so is DBZ. And by the way, the tone gradually shifts, it doesn't go from gag manga to more earnest overnight.

There's a love story in DB/Z, doesn't mean it's romance. Bringing in time travel is different than mech suits.

The second it's shown that Goku and Piccolo are aliens (which is not even remotely hinted at in Dragon Ball - in fact, Piccolo is referred to as a Demon), the entire genre shifted. That's why DBZ is nothing like DB.

Piccolo being a demon isn't antithetical to being an alien. Goku's origin was left mysterious.

You still have yet to defend your point about DBZ not being a martial arts series.

[XanatosVanBadass]

^ Plus a character speculates he’s an alien at least once. Not saying it was planned, but it wasn’t out of the realm of possibility.

[McDonaldsGuy]

There are plenty of science fiction elements in DB. Hoi Poi Capsules, mech suits, etc. And the science fiction elements are just window dressing. The Piccolo Daimao arc isn't an adventure. It's a revenge story. You keep saying it over and over again that DB is a martial arts series, but so is DBZ. And by the way, the tone gradually shifts, it doesn't go from gag manga to more earnest overnight.

There's a love story in DB/Z, doesn't mean it's romance. Bringing in time travel is different than mech suits.

The second it's shown that Goku and Piccolo are aliens (which is not even remotely hinted at in Dragon Ball - in fact, Piccolo is referred to as a Demon), the entire genre shifted. That's why DBZ is nothing like DB.

Piccolo being a demon isn't antithetical to being an alien. Goku's origin was left mysterious.

You still have yet to defend your point about DBZ not being a martial arts series.

I need you to explain how it's a primarily martial arts series.

[ABED]

You first. You made the assertion. I'll give you my opinion after you explain yours. Besides, I've already given you a reason in a previous post, probably my first response to you.

I'm a big fan of stories, but I'm not well versed in foreign genres, so I didn't know what DB's influences were. However, once they are shown to you, you will see it clear as day how much Toriyama lifted from Martial arts movies where they do exactly the kind of stuff DBZ is known for.

[VDenter]

There is really nothing that different in tone between the Saiyan arc and the 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi arc. There is nothing that different in terms of tone between the Piccolo Daimao arc and the Majin Boo arc. They are all relatively on the same level on that front, which is why DBZ and DB had the same OST for the most part. They are not a separate entity for any creative reason but simply a business decision.

Even if McDondalsGuy was correct with his assertion. It still wouldn't change a thing, because the Faulconer score and a poorly done dub do not fit in the slightest with the "more serious and action focused" DBZ. You know the same serious show that later has a Pink fat monster who turns people into chocolate. I'm not sure how any of the Faulconer business even fits there? It simply awful and doesn't fit anything. On top of all this the poor acting and voices of the dub make taking things that happen in the show seriously pretty much impossible.

[McDonaldsGuy]

You first. You made the assertion. I'll give you my opinion after you explain yours. Besides, I've already given you a reason in a previous post, probably my first response to you.

Definition of Sci-Fi per Wikipedia: "Science fiction (sometimes called sci-fi or just SF) is a genre of speculative fiction that typically deals with imaginative and futuristic concepts such as advanced science and technology, space exploration, time travel, parallel universes, and extraterrestrial life."

Parallel universes; space explorations; aliens; time travel.... what does that sound like? Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Z?

The fighting in DBZ is more energy/strength based than pure martial arts. It'd be like saying Indiana Jones is a martial arts movie because he throws punches.

So having a martial arts theme doesn't fit when SSJ Goku is fighting Furiza or Gohan vs. Cell's Kamehameha.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Also y’all totally falling for the OP topic bait. I really wish that person would come back and contribute. Much insight. So valuable.

Jord does it all the time and you never complain... You actually get at the users who point out his threads just bring up identity politics and divide us.

I need you to explain how it's a primarily martial arts series.

I mean they fight in just about every damn episode of the show, so I'm pretty sure it counts as a martial arts series.

[XanatosVanBadass]

Also y’all totally falling for the OP topic bait. I really wish that person would come back and contribute. Much insight. So valuable.

Jord does it all the time and you never complain... You actually get at the users who point out his threads just bring up identity politics and divide us.

I need you to explain how it's a primarily martial arts series.

I mean they fight in just about every damn episode of the show, so I'm pretty sure it counts as a martial arts series.

Not to mention the ki blasts are depicted as a part of these martial arts that you have to LEARN and train to use.