Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:03 am

GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:46 am
ABED wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:24 am
DB was something of a throwback anyway. It's meant to have a feel of old Kung Fu movies.
But is that really all it is when it became so much more in its own right?
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:30 am
I don’t know why sounding older has to mean bad. To use another kid show score as an example Batman the animated series deliberately sounds like you’re watching from the 1940s with its musical score to invoke the feeling of a Fleischer Superman cartoon or old 1940’s noir film. Dragon Ball was going for “1970s kung fu flick” and if worked fine.
That’s a cartoon though, JP anime always had better material. I’ve also heard similar stuff in Grendizer and Daimos, 2 earlier projects of Kikuchi’s that just happen to be mecha, a completely different genre. Speaking of which, G Gundam was also Kung Fu flick in style, but it didn’t settle when it came to the OST (as an example).
What I’m saying is that it could easily have been so much better and likely more high standard for the show, but maybe that wouldn’t work for it at all given some previous explanations. A lot of these were even composed for the movies so they can’t be linked to just one character or event, it’s effectively just a baseline minimum for typecast situations and not much more. So we can’t expect the same thing of DB’s BGM that we do of other anime series, both concurrent and later?
You can at least improve the audio recording quality though, that would make it at least more palatable, or do what DBZ: Kakarot did which is redo the scores in better quality.

My main problem is when people hype it so much or put it in a pedestal and then it always turns out disappointing (for me and likely many others) due to high expectations. Rather than being honest like this.
It became what it became because of all those elements being part of a whole, not in spite of them. Toriyama mixed his sensibilities and interests into a blender and among those ingredients was old Kung Fu movies.

You say DB settled. I and many others don't. It fits the feel of the world like a glove.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:07 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:02 am
GhostEmperorX wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:46 am
That’s a cartoon though,
What if I told you Dragon Ball is also a cartoon?

Also musical taste is subjective clearly a lot of people like the Faulconer score. People hyping up the Kikuchi score and you not liking it isn’t an inherent problem.
Sorry, I meant to say Western cartoon as unlike their films they don’t put all that much effort into their BGM composition across the board.

True, it is, but how then do they go from that to exalting it (on either side) to a realm beyond simple opinions? Or outright attacking anyone that disagrees as being biased towards the Faulconer team’s less than exemplary work?

Also, Toei eventually betrayed this concept when they decided to go with a new OST for the Kai series, only that they screwed up big time in their choice of a replacement when they went with a com(plete)-poser for it.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:11 am

Art is subjective, but art is so extremely personal when someone criticizes something we like it can feel like a criticism against us.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:20 am

ABED wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:03 am
It became what it became because of all those elements being part of a whole, not in spite of them. Toriyama mixed his sensibilities and interests into a blender and among those ingredients was old Kung Fu movies.

You say DB settled. I and many others don't. It fits the feel of the world like a glove.
I already said I understood this, but it doesn’t really affect the way I think about it in so much more of a positive manner, rather it seems to affirm it even more. The idea that being relatively underwhelming or unremarkable (mostly for me, someone that likes BGM’s a lot) was by design, that is.
ABED wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:11 am
Art is subjective, but art is so extremely personal when someone criticizes something we like it can feel like a criticism against us.
That’s understandable, though for my end I simply want to try to get what it is people may like about this in a proper discussion where both sides can come to terms. Which is at least one reason I came to this forum, since due to its structure it’s more likely to be filled with people who know how to conduct themselves as opposed to YT comment sections.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:22 pm

Your assessment is that it's unremarkable but something tells me that wasn't what they were shooting for. I'm not going out on a limb in believing they wanted a great score. What possible reason would anyone not want something like this to be great? What I like about the score is that it fits and stands out but knows when to lay back.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:39 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:22 pm
Your assessment is that it's unremarkable but something tells me that wasn't what they were shooting for. I'm not going out on a limb in believing they wanted a great score. What possible reason would anyone not want something like this to be great? What I like about the score is that it fits and stands out but knows when to lay back.
Silent moments are universal even in the shows with the kinds of scores I prefer though. And I’ve had at least 2 people who prefer it tell me that it’s pretty much meant to be unremarkable and not too “in your face” as one of them put it. That it was simply there to give the show some direction, not “steal the spotlight and sell CD’s” due to the fact that it relies more on silence and that there’s lots of empty space in between actions. And the other said that the more grand or epic stuff would work for “more compressed” series, and that in DB it would simply take the focus away from the scenes themselves. To be clear, OP’s, ED’s, and (vocal) insert themes don’t count as not only were they not composed by Kikuchi, but they’re also very different from the in-show BGM.
Even one person here said that he didn’t do anything particularly “avant-garde” with the score and that it’s simple and old-school.

One possible reason would be their choice of not only BGM standard, but handling method as well where they reused tracks made in the movies. Not to mention the F minor monotony.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:43 pm

Not in your face and unremarkable aren't the same thing. A big reason it is remarkable is because the score and the placement knows when be big or when to hold back and let the moment play without music.

I have no clue what kind of scores you prefer.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:53 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:43 pm
Not in your face and unremarkable aren't the same thing. A big reason it is remarkable is because the score and the placement knows when be big or when to hold back and let the moment play without music.

I have no clue what kind of scores you prefer.
I mean the actual tracks in themselves, and as I said before, the placement is pretty common among anime (sub/raw) in general.

Well that’s easy, the likes of John Williams or Howard Shore for film, anyone else who’s competent with an orchestra and many other effects, and among anime, the works of Kōhei Tanaka (arranger of the first DB OP and a few other songs plus composer for One Piece, Gunbuster, G Gundam, 2 Brave series, etc), Yasunori Iwasaki (maker of Solid State Scouter, also an arranger of DB songs and a composer for 2 Brave series and more), Yasuharu Takanashi (Naruto), Kōichi Sugiyama (Ideon), Toshihiko Sahashi (The Big O), Kenji Kawai, etc...
They do orchestral music as well clearly but also a lot more than that, and the substance of their compositions is something that sticks afterwards.
Naturally the motley crew that is Faulconer Productions can’t fit the bill as they’re literally an aberration in any standard.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:56 pm

I feel like you're searching for some objective answer. There isn't one. The Kikuchi tracks are memorable to a great many people.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:13 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:56 pm
I feel like you're searching for some objective answer. There isn't one. The Kikuchi tracks are memorable to a great many people.
I see. I just feel it would be best for some to understand why it may not satisfy others instead of jumping to conclusions like what happens almost every time this kind of topic is brought up. I mean, whenever I watch any series that came out during that time with no replacement score whatsoever and also noticing what kinds of tracks they use and the quality of their production, I come back to DB and think “Why didn’t this show have any of this?”, like, I just think there was potential for even better material out of an iconic series like it.

Meanwhile what we have is barely different from these:
The man himself is certainly a legend owing to all the classic OP’s and ED’s he composed for shows back in the 70’s as well as his BGM’s being a perfect reflection of that time, but his work just doesn’t do it for me past a certain point.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:46 pm

Dragon Ball is a wuxia series and having the music be a throw back to the old school Hong Kong action movies makes sense for it sound vintage. That's why I always like the Japanese music so much ever since I first became a fan of the series. I know Faulconer is a nice guy that puts a lot of effort into his work, but his music never did anything to me. Maybe one or two tracks from him that I enjoy, but that's about it.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:04 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:46 pm
Dragon Ball is a wuxia series and having the music be a throw back to the old school Hong Kong action movies makes sense for it sound vintage. That's why I always like the Japanese music so much ever since I first became a fan of the series. I know Faulconer is a nice guy that puts a lot of effort into his work, but his music never did anything to me. Maybe one or two tracks from him that I enjoy, but that's about it.
I thought we moved past discussing the not-actually-Faulconer works and into what concurrent anime series and JP composers were doing. You’ll be glad to know that it wasn’t even him who composed a lot of those in the first place.

As an example of other works, there isn’t any audible equivalent in DB for Naruto’s main theme.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by kei17 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:30 pm

GhostEmperorX strongly believes that people here love and give credit to Kikuchi because they know very little about anime music in general, and he takes every opportunity to try to "enlighten" them by pointing to examples of "objectively better composers", which actually represents nothing but his personal preferences ultimately. Look through his posts here and you'll see how he's been sticking with this idea like a broken record. He contributes nearly nothing to discussions.

Anyway, as a Japanese DB fan grew up with the original version, actually I don't dislike the Faulconer Productions score. Musically I love some of the tracks like Vegeta's theme and Mysterious Youth, but I do have a problem with those with cheap-ass synth trumpets I often hear especially in the Buu arc. I feel that the biggest problem with the score is its placement: Its cartoony mickey-mousing, non-stopping placement that feels childish, which contradicts how it tries to sound "cool". Maybe it was a good approach to selling the show to American early teenager then who wanted something feels "hardcore" to them but child-friendly at the same time, but it doesn't really catch the true nature of the franchise. It served well, but is not timeless. It's free to feel nostalgia for what you grew up with and you can still love it. However, don't claim that it's better than the original in any way. That's absurd.

If you take account of all the American replacement scores, I think that the Faulconer Pruductions' one is thousands of times better than the others because it at least has clear melodies that feel like anime music.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:15 pm

kei17 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:30 pm
GhostEmperorX strongly believes that people here love and give credit to Kikuchi because they know very little about anime music in general
I'm not a massive anime fan, but I've seen my share, including some of the classics like Evangelion, Ghost In The Shell, and Yu Yu Hakusho. Kikuchi's score is definitely a standout. I don't remember any melodies from these shows the same way I do with Dragon Ball's OST.

Team Faulconer's score may feel like a viable anime score, but it doesn't do anything for Dragon Ball. It would be great in some sci-fi or Mecha series though.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:30 pm

Faulconer’s score doesn’t even feel like viable sci fi anime music. It sounds like someone listened to Batman Beyond and tried to do that but didn’t know how.

It would have been nice if the Faulconer music was just ill-fitting but it just aint good music (for the most part).

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Thanos » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:07 pm

The singular purpose of "modernizing" the series existed during the mid-late 90's, and only if you are a corporation whose sole goal with marketing the series is to target young kids. There's no evidence that the Faulconer soundtrack had any effect whatsoever on its popularity. I don't remember, as an eight-year-old, ever noticing background music. Although my case is anecdotal, I can't imagine I'm alone. Especially when you consider the actual evidence which is that every other country on Earth that the series was successful in left the music intact. Kikuchi's score is an integral part of the whole package that gives the series its magic. I don't imagine anyone being put off by it if they're adequately charmed by all the other quirky elements of the series.

Dragon Ball Z is simply a continuation of Dragon Ball, which had a soundtrack inspired by Wuxia cinema of the 1960's. It was anachronistic even in 1986. The only way this argument really works is if you remove all context from the series, and, again, use it as a vehicle to drive up viewership of children.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:34 pm

Thanos wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:07 pm
There's no evidence that the Faulconer soundtrack had any effect whatsoever on its popularity. I don't remember, as an eight-year-old, ever noticing background music. Although my case is anecdotal, I can't imagine I'm alone. Especially when you consider the actual evidence which is that every other country on Earth that the series was successful in left the music intact. Kikuchi's score is an integral part of the whole package that gives the series its magic.
We know for a fact that the Faulconer score didn’t make DBZ popular in America. Doing well in syndication and number one show on Toonami before the switch to Faulconer music for season 3. The hate boner for the Kikuchi score by Faulconer fans only started when Funimation (correctly) started distancing themselves from the replacement score and only gave it as an option for the season sets. There was no hate for it when it was used in the Dragon Ball dub or the first two Dragon Ball Z movies when they ran on Toonami. And I’m pretty sure all 3 movies that used the Kikuchi score sold well enough to convince Funimation that uncut releases on home video were profitable.

I think part of the negative reaction to it is because its “replaced” a score they’ve come to associate with Dragon Ball Z (ironic enough). Had Funimation just left the score as is at worst I think you’d have fans indifferent to the music.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Valerius Dover » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:49 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:34 pm
Thanos wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:07 pm
There's no evidence that the Faulconer soundtrack had any effect whatsoever on its popularity. I don't remember, as an eight-year-old, ever noticing background music. Although my case is anecdotal, I can't imagine I'm alone. Especially when you consider the actual evidence which is that every other country on Earth that the series was successful in left the music intact. Kikuchi's score is an integral part of the whole package that gives the series its magic.
We know for a fact that the Faulconer score didn’t make DBZ popular in America. Doing well in syndication and number one show on Toonami before the switch to Faulconer music for season 3. The hate boner for the Kikuchi score by Faulconer fans only started when Funimation (correctly) started distancing themselves from the replacement score and only gave it as an option for the season sets. There was no hate for it when it was used in the Dragon Ball dub or the first two Dragon Ball Z movies when they ran on Toonami. And I’m pretty sure all 3 movies that used the Kikuchi score sold well enough to convince Funimation that uncut releases on home video were profitable.

I think part of the negative reaction to it is because its “replaced” a score they’ve come to associate with Dragon Ball Z (ironic enough). Had Funimation just left the score as is at worst I think you’d have fans indifferent to the music.
To add to this, isn't it enough that the score is actually still included at all on the Season Sets, despite all those legal issues that occurred? They could've easily left it out altogether.

Actually, come to think of it. What exactly were the results of that lawsuit anyway? I'm a little out of the loop with that one.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Zestanor » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:04 pm

If there’s hate for it among dub fans, we can’t deny they have some good reasons to feel affronted. The Orange Brick dub is not the uncut version of what they saw on CN. People all have their own reasons for wanting to go back and watch the show. Some fans just want to see the old bad dub, but Funimation has disavowed it in favor of a slightly better product. ... Which (the OB redub) is not that much better. To the dub fans, basically: you can’t have the old bad dub, tasteless rubes, but you can have this piecemeal and rushed thing which no one asked for. And for them it’s only gotten worse since the Orange Bricks, since the only dub option on streaming services is the half-redub + Kikuchi audio.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:09 pm

Zestanor wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:04 pm
If there’s hate for it among dub fans, we can’t deny they have some good reasons to feel affronted. The Orange Brick dub is not the uncut version of what they saw on CN. People all have their own reasons for wanting to go back and watch the show. Some fans just want to see the old bad dub, but Funimation has disavowed it in favor of a slightly better product. ... Which (the OB redub) is not that much better. To the dub fans, basically: you can’t have the old bad dub, tasteless rubes, but you can have this piecemeal and rushed thing which no one asked for. And for them it’s only gotten worse since the Orange Bricks, since the only dub option on streaming services is the half-redub + Kikuchi audio.
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