How would you improve DB going forward?

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How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by zekken1 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:15 pm

I am gonna try to keep this low of plot point suggestions cause that is more subjective. You dont have too tho any suggestions are fine

1. During the fights focus more on martial arts, less on the super massive, beam struggle fights and such. The Tournament of Power, the fact that they couldn't fly was a really good add on. Make the normal fights more like Tien Vs Goku in the 23 budokai, less like Gohan Vs Lavender in expo tournament. The first Hit Vs Vegeta fight was good as well. This may help the budget as well as, making the big fights like Goku Vs Jiren more special. Where in those fights they can add all they flying, beams and such.

2. More like the first point bring in more varieties of martial arts. Some can use wrestling moves, some muy thai. This is a show of martial artist after all. Goku Vs Toppo was good in this regard seeing as it showed grab/lock moves. More of that, it helps make the fighters different and give them more personality.

3. Bring in the Time Patrol, and have Mirai Trunks tie in how he became a patroler.

4. Go past EOZ if 2uper happens.

(Also maybe the mods can make a permanent suggestions thread where we can share and discuss future DB ideas. I didn't find one so i made this thread but it will probably fall to obscurity down the line.)
Although Goku & Vegeta are the mains of Dragon ball it's really great that after all these years there are still other interesting Fighters like Broly that are stronger than them :thumbup:

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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:38 pm

What's your issue with Gohan vs. Lavender. I thought it was good and showed a different side to Gohan.

I don't typically like these sorts of threads, but I would just want DB going forward to remember that the best fights in the series involve struggle and by the end the audience should be able to feel the impact and the exhaustion of the combatants.
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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:50 pm

I don't know if there's any specific way to improve DB. Super's biggest problem during its run was that it tried to be everything for everyone. It wasn't so much a sequel to Dragon Ball as it was a big party for the fandom and while that produced fun stuff like the Yamcha Baseball episode it also led to a bunch of inane trash that seemed to be there just to wink at the fandom. Winking at the camera is one thing but official material should never be winking at the fandom.

Going forward all I want is a clear vision for what the series is going to be and who the characters are. And if they don't fit into the new paradigm I'd like for them to be left alone or forgotten like Launch.
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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:18 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:50 pm
I don't know if there's any specific way to improve DB. Super's biggest problem during its run was that it tried to be everything for everyone. It wasn't so much a sequel to Dragon Ball as it was a big party for the fandom and while that produced fun stuff like the Yamcha Baseball episode it also led to a bunch of inane trash that seemed to be there just to wink at the fandom. Winking at the camera is one thing but official material should never be winking at the fandom.

Going forward all I want is a clear vision for what the series is going to be and who the characters are. And if they don't fit into the new paradigm I'd like for them to be left alone or forgotten like Launch.
I take by winking at the fandom you mean fanservice like when Freeza takes that big spherical attack during the tournament of power and it echoed the Genki Dama?
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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by zekken1 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:26 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:38 pm
What's your issue with Gohan vs. Lavender. I thought it was good and showed a different side to Gohan.

I don't typically like these sorts of threads, but I would just want DB going forward to remember that the best fights in the series involve struggle and by the end the audience should be able to feel the impact and the exhaustion of the combatants.
The fight was good, i am not complaining about any thematic faults of the fight or any of the characters, rather how the fight was conducted on a martial arts level.

The fight was awesome in itself and like you said, gohan endeavoring personality was a good inclusion. Its just that, would you like lets say Krillin Vs Cabba to get such a fight, again strictly talking choreography here. Some fights need to be grounded, look at the 23 world martial tournament for example or even the fight with Raditz to some degree.
Although Goku & Vegeta are the mains of Dragon ball it's really great that after all these years there are still other interesting Fighters like Broly that are stronger than them :thumbup:

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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:47 pm

Not to some degree, that fight against Raditz is amazing.
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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by zekken1 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:11 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:47 pm
Not to some degree, that fight against Raditz is amazing.
Hehe, agreed :D
Although Goku & Vegeta are the mains of Dragon ball it's really great that after all these years there are still other interesting Fighters like Broly that are stronger than them :thumbup:

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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:20 pm

Tell stories with more to them than "here is a strong boi that goku and vegeta have to punch real hard"

'Cause seriously, the Moro arc in the manga is really grating on me... Minor spoilers for the gimmick of the villain in the Moro arc:
Dragon Ball Super is so heavily leaning on powerscaling (as in, making the next foe stronger so Goku and Vegeta have to learn to punch him harder -- and, as a sidenote, yes, the villain is always a him), it's just not engaging. We have a villain who's stronger than the guy who's stronger than the guy who's stronger than the guy who's stronger than Goku when he was having an even fight with the literal god of destroying things. And that's all there is to him. There's implications of a larger plan going on behind the scenes, but the character is just a generically intimidating strong boi for Goku and Vegeta to lose against so they can learn to punch him harder.

Granted, "Strong guy who wins so the heroes have to learn a way to not lose next time they face him" is a way of boiling down every Dragon Ball story since the first tournament storyline, but usually there's actually more to it than that. Super, there just isn't.

The entire plotof the Moro arc is
Granted, that last beat hasn't happened yet, but I guarantee you that's how it goes. And I haven't missed anything out here. There's no deeper character motivations, there's no arcs going on... The only mildly interesting thing is the stuff with the technique copying, but that's been assigned to a character who was outright stated to have no personality, and ends up having no actual story or arc, so...

Honestly...
I think the way to improve Dragon Ball is to jettison Toriyama. The stupid, awful storytelling we've been seeing in Super was evident at the end of the original manga too, when Toriyama was getting less and less input on his work, and it's clear that he's lost his touch in terms of actual storytelling. He needs to have a collaborator who's actually a writer, actually a talented storyteller, and is willing to say "No, Toriyama, that's a fucking stupid idea", and heavily rewrite Toriyama's work. Either that, or Toriyama needs to only serve as a creative consultant like he did on Battle Of Gods.
Though I guess my worry there is he might go too far and force everything to fit in the trademarked, singular, invariable Dragon Ball Tone™... :roll:

Obviously, now that I've said this, someone's going to say "without toriyama we get gt, which was literally the worst thing to ever happen to dragon ball, and if it happened again, the franchise would DIE!!!!!!", but I submit to you that Toei is a very different company now than they were in 1996/1997, so a new Dragon Ball series that Toriyama takes a backseat for would be very different from GT, and approached by a very different group of people, with a very different philosophy.

Though, a less drastic thing that would instantly be a huge, marked improvement is dropping the fucking status quo. Dragon Ball shouldn't have an ongoing status quo, and the fact Super is maintaining one is only serving to hurt it.
Honestly, if I could make one small change to Super's run, this would be it; no status quo. Every arc MUST change SOMETHING about the status quo. There must be no sitcom reset state in Dragon Ball.
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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:21 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:20 pm
Though, a less drastic thing that would instantly be a huge, marked improvement is dropping the fucking status quo. Dragon Ball shouldn't have an ongoing status quo, and the fact Super is maintaining one is only serving to hurt it.
You know... now that you put it like that, yeah. Why is Super so stuck on the status quo? Dragon Ball changed the status quo every single arc. The only constant was Goku and him rising to meet the new challenge. So, other than nostalgia, what reason is there to stick so closely to what the series was like during the mid Buu era?
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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:26 pm

Because if you intend to keep the story and the characters around forever you have to keep it in stasis.
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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:20 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:26 pm
Because if you intend to keep the story and the characters around forever you have to keep it in stasis.
Probably. That's the route sitcoms and dramas take.
ABED wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:18 pm
I take by winking at the fandom you mean fanservice like when Freeza takes that big spherical attack during the tournament of power and it echoed the Genki Dama?
Not in particular. I've no problem with call backs unless they become gratuitous. In isolation, a nod towards what happened last time someone tried this against Freeza doesn't really bother me. It's when it starts happening all the time. In that specific comment I was more thinking alongside all the fandom in jokes that made it into the show. Yamcha living a lonely, loveless life inside a dingy apartment. Vegeta somehow miraculously becoming an amazing father. Piccolo basically being Gohan's surrogate dad. Jokes like that.

Fourth wall breaks are fine, at least the way Dragon Ball has always done them. The residents of Penguin Village jumping into frame to flash the V-sign or wave because they're stoked about being back in Jump magazine, is one of my favorite gags from the Red Ribbon Arc. To me that stuff's hilarious. But when the writer's voice and the fandom's voice become indistinguishable the jokes stop being funny. They become as annoying as any fandom meme.
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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by Planetnamek » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:48 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:20 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:26 pm
Because if you intend to keep the story and the characters around forever you have to keep it in stasis.
Probably. That's the route sitcoms and dramas take.
ABED wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:18 pm
I take by winking at the fandom you mean fanservice like when Freeza takes that big spherical attack during the tournament of power and it echoed the Genki Dama?
Not in particular. I've no problem with call backs unless they become gratuitous. In isolation, a nod towards what happened last time someone tried this against Freeza doesn't really bother me. It's when it starts happening all the time. In that specific comment I was more thinking alongside all the fandom in jokes that made it into the show. Yamcha living a lonely, loveless life inside a dingy apartment. Vegeta somehow miraculously becoming an amazing father. Piccolo basically being Gohan's surrogate dad. Jokes like that.

Fourth wall breaks are fine, at least the way Dragon Ball has always done them. The residents of Penguin Village jumping into frame to flash the V-sign or wave because they're stoked about being back in Jump magazine, is one of my favorite gags from the Red Ribbon Arc. To me that stuff's hilarious. But when the writer's voice and the fandom's voice become indistinguishable the jokes stop being funny. They become as annoying as any fandom meme.
Actually there's quite a few sitcoms and dramas that don't go down that road, in fact most of those shows nowadays and for the past few decades don't do that and haven't really done that since Sopranos shook everything up.
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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:01 am

I would continue to do what they're doing now:

1- Allow the manga to not only get ahead, but potentially be the main source for everything else.

2- Write arcs that are original AND fleshed out.

3- Introduce villains who bring something other than raw power to the table.

4- Allow the anime to have enough pre-production time.

5- Keep Shintani as the character designer.

6- Have the movies feel like an event through their great quality.

7- Give the games to developers who can bring something different to each game.

What I'd change:

1- Stop relying on nostalgic elements.

2- Plan out the story so that things feel like one long story instead of separate stories loosely connected.

3- Promote Piccolo to main character status.

4- Be more upfront about the franchise's future to prevent false rumors from spreading.

5- Stop introducing new Ssj forms and instead focus on what you have and introduce more techniques instead

6- Allow time to take effect again and have characters change and age accordingly.

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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by Gligarman » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:52 am

Less emphasis on Goku and Vegeta in the final battles. They seem to be moving in that direction though. The current battle arc in the manga features pretty much everyone!

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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:16 am

Planetnamek wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:48 pm
Actually there's quite a few sitcoms and dramas that don't go down that road, in fact most of those shows nowadays and for the past few decades don't do that and haven't really done that since Sopranos shook everything up.
I'd give that distinction to Buffy. The Sopranos also keeps the characters more or less the same throughout the show's entire run.

I'm fine with some shows keeping a sense of stasis. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but DB was not that for years.
2- Plan out the story so that things feel like one long story instead of separate stories loosely connected.
But that's Dragon Ball and it's worked to the show's benefit.
Vegeta somehow miraculously becoming an amazing father. Piccolo basically being Gohan's surrogate dad.
I'll give you Yamcha, but I don't think Vegeta is an amazing father, just further along in his arc. And in Super Piccolo is not Gohan's surrogate dad any more than he ever was. These memes don't come out of nowhere. If anything, he's become Pan's nanny.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by zekken1 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:32 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:01 am
I would continue to do what they're doing now:

1- Allow the manga to not only get ahead, but potentially be the main source for everything else.

2- Write arcs that are original AND fleshed out.

3- Introduce villains who bring something other than raw power to the table.

4- Allow the anime to have enough pre-production time.

5- Keep Shintani as the character designer.

6- Have the movies feel like an event through their great quality.

7- Give the games to developers who can bring something different to each game.

What I'd change:

1- Stop relying on nostalgic elements.

2- Plan out the story so that things feel like one long story instead of separate stories loosely connected.

3- Promote Piccolo to main character status.

4- Be more upfront about the franchise's future to prevent false rumors from spreading.

5- Stop introducing new Ssj forms and instead focus on what you have and introduce more techniques instead

6- Allow time to take effect again and have characters change and age accordingly.
Some of that you get from Super Dragon Ball Heroes i'd say. (Havent seen past episode 11 or smt so please keep this spoiler free)
Hearts brings more to the table than raw power, and his plan/ the story is very much original in DB. A sophisticated, planned approach to overthrow the hierarchy. A plan which includes powering up the universe seed making it so characters from the tournamet of power can return. It's genius.

The piccolo thing already happens him joining in on the brawl against Hearts. I mean besides him it's Goku&Vegeta the mains. Fan favorite Mirai Trunks, and winner of the T.O.P, Lapis(17). And he was featured in DBS: Broly promotional material along side Goku and Vegeta. So it is already happening for Piccolo, I don't read the manga so i don't really know his involvement there.

As for the forms i'd say there is only a Super Saiyan version of Ultra Instinct remaining before the story picks up with GT and Super Saiyan 4.
Although Goku & Vegeta are the mains of Dragon ball it's really great that after all these years there are still other interesting Fighters like Broly that are stronger than them :thumbup:

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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:17 am

Besides the obvious answer of ending it permanently, id age up the kids to where they properly should be and go beyond End of Z

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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:38 am

About point 1, Present Zamasu vs. Goku was basically that. It was very focused on martial arts, each blow had a big impact on the opponent, and there was barely any ki-related ability. Very underrated fight.
zekken1 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:32 am
Some of that you get from Super Dragon Ball Heroes i'd say. (Havent seen past episode 11 or smt so please keep this spoiler free)
Hearts brings more to the table than raw power, and his plan/ the story is very much original in DB. A sophisticated, planned approach to overthrow the hierarchy. A plan which includes powering up the universe seed making it so characters from the tournamet of power can return. It's genius.

The piccolo thing already happens him joining in on the brawl against Hearts. I mean besides him it's Goku&Vegeta the mains. Fan favorite Mirai Trunks, and winner of the T.O.P, Lapis(17). And he was featured in DBS: Broly promotional material along side Goku and Vegeta. So it is already happening for Piccolo, I don't read the manga so i don't really know his involvement there.

As for the forms i'd say there is only a Super Saiyan version of Ultra Instinct remaining before the story picks up with GT and Super Saiyan 4.
You also get that from normal Super. Zamasu was not a villain who relied solely on raw power, but on his charisma and immortality as well. Also he had the most intricate and well-thought plan to succeed; he basically took care of anyone who could thwart his plan, and was defeated only because another timeline's Goku befriended Zeno (something that was beyond his control and that he couldn't possibly have foreseen).
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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by Zestanor » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:59 am

I haven’t seen Super, but I disagree with the OP’s implication that beam struggles are not an improvement over hand to hand combat. It was a natural progression which was latent since Goku’s first Kamehameha. If characters went back to using classical martial arts, it would not be believable, unless there were some reason to be severely powered down.

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Re: How would you improve DB going forward?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:02 pm

zekken1 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:15 pm
3. Bring in the Time Patrol, and have Mirai Trunks tie in how he became a patroler.

4. Go past EOZ if 2uper happens.
Those are more than enough, really. Besides dealing with the alternate dimension concept, of course.
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